Quick suggestion on how to fix monk dps

[riexau]

It's really quite a simple three-part fix.

1) Get rid of this +bab bonus that monks get in game. monks are a 3/4 class and just raising their bab to emulate flurry is a lazy workarund.

2) Add a glancing blow at full damage + weapon effects at levels 1 and 11, when unarmed, wielding 1 kama or a quarterstaff.

3) Add a -2 penalty to hit when unarmed, wielding 1 kama or a quarterstaff.

There, flurry properly implemented, unarmed, 1 kama and quarterstaff combat improved and more motivation to level as a pure monk.

Seriously, the code for this is already in game. Glancing blows are not a new thing, and the code for them to do full damage + weapon effects is in game already (they nerfed it, but it's there).



Thoughts? Let's do it!

[Angelus_dead]

1) Get rid of this +bab bonus that monks get in game. monks are a 3/4 class and just raising their bab to emulate flurry is a lazy workarund.

No, the only thing even partly wrong with that feature is that they named it "Flurry of Blows". Really, it's something all monks should have been given in D&D from the beginning, if they weren't simply given BAB 1:1 completely. A character who supposedly trains every day to punch stuff (which is more practice than a fighter or barb gets) needs to be better at actually hitting things.

That's especially the case because otherwise a monk's combat effectiveness would be contingent on a stack of Divine Power clickies, up until he manages to collect some Madstone Boots. (That problem exists in PnP as well: if you want to build a battle-competent monk, step one is find him a way to get DP)

2) Add a glancing blow at full damage + weapon effects at levels 1 and 11, when unarmed, wielding 1 kama or a quarterstaff.

Ok, so you are suggesting that high-level monks be given 7 unarmed attacks in the time they'd get 5 today? That's very similar to my suggestion back when monks were newer. Level 1 is too soon to get it, however, and level 11 is too soon to upgrade it.

3) Add a -2 penalty to hit when unarmed, wielding 1 kama or a quarterstaff.

That would really have to be a toggle, otherwise the permanent -2 would be very gimpy, particularly at low levels. That problem would be doubly bad if the monk were brought down to 3/4 BAB.

[redoubt]

With the best AC in the game do monks need to do more damage?

[TreknaQudane]

With the best AC in the game do monks need to do more damage?

High AC is pointless on any character if you can't damage something enough or intimidate it enough to have the aggro to need it

[redoubt]

So because you have high AC you deserve the best dps???

It used to be that you could have high AC and kill something slowly while taking less damage. I used to run a lot of quests that way...

[Lehrman]

It's really quite a simple three-part fix.

1) Get rid of this +bab bonus that monks get in game. monks are a 3/4 class and just raising their bab to emulate flurry is a lazy workarund.

Agreed

2) Add a glancing blow at full damage + weapon effects at levels 1 and 11, when unarmed, wielding 1 kama or a quarterstaff.

Do monk's have this in PnP? I do not remember seeing it.

3) Add a -2 penalty to hit when unarmed, wielding 1 kama or a quarterstaff.

How would this help DPS?

There, flurry properly implemented, unarmed, 1 kama and quarterstaff combat improved and more motivation to level as a pure monk.

Seriously, the code for this is already in game. Glancing blows are not a new thing, and the code for them to do full damage + weapon effects is in game already (they nerfed it, but it's there).

Adding weapon effects to glancing blows would overpower the effect and to add it to a single class's attacks would be unfair for all other classes.

Thoughts? Let's do it!

I think just turning flurry of attacks into +1attack -2 to all attack rolls would be enough to bring monk DPS in line with what one might expect from a monk--Keep in mind that a 20th lvl monk does not do 1d6 barehanded, he does 1d20...10.5 ave damage without a weapon. With +5 Holy, PG wraps that works out to ~26 points a hit without including STR bonus or PA. If the monk is a dual kama wielder, then the extra attack would make his/her DPS better than a ranger against non-FE.

[Aranticus]

alright! time to give barbs more ac

[Angelus_dead]

With the best AC in the game do monks need to do more damage?

Monks don't need more DPS.
Unarmed monks need more DPS than weapon-using monks.

[geoffhanna]

I'd like to see the monk unarmed animation speed increase about 10%.

If necessary, put it on a toggle that also causes -2 tohit.

[hurricane333]

Bane handwraps.

[bobbryan2]

So because you have high AC you deserve the best dps???

What's the point of high AC if nothing is attacking you because you can't get aggro?

[Maegin]

I'd like to see the monk unarmed animation speed increase about 10%.

If necessary, put it on a toggle that also causes -2 tohit.

I think what he said is the best solution ive read sofar.

That might stack with wind, but only unarmed.

[Megaton_Samurai]

Monks don't need more DPS.
Unarmed monks need more DPS than weapon-using monks.

I agree, other than unarmed, monks are fine.

I would like to see unarmed improved using the finishing system, which I find extremely lacking at the moment. Something like adding your monk level in elemental damage for each of the 3 attacks leading up to a finisher to the finisher's damage. For example at level 10 an air neg air finisher would do 20 elec and 10 neg damage in addition to the blind. Actually, that doesn't seem like nearly enough.

[icculus]

I agree, other than unarmed, monks are fine.

Ouch!
Unarmed Monks definitely need the most help, but all Monks suffer due to very poor underlieing design decisions; both for the Monk class specifically and the game in general:

Ki is cool - having to use Ki for basic Monk abilities is totally uncool
TWF should not be the only viable option
etc

[Megaton_Samurai]

Ouch!
Unarmed Monks definitely need the most help, but all Monks suffer due to very poor underlieing design decisions; both for the Monk class specifically and the game in general:

Ki is cool - having to use Ki for basic Monk abilities is totally uncool
TWF should not be the only viable option
etc

I guess I wasn't clear. I was referring to DPS. I have other issues with them, but this is a thread about monk DPS so I was trying to stay on topic. In my opinion TWF and quarterstaff have acceptable DPS, but they could use minor improvements. I'd like to see Ki regen naturally when under cap and I think quarterstaff should be able to use Stunning Blow.

With the AC that monks have available it's going to be hard to justify any significant increase in damage other than to bring unarmed up to par with the other two options.

[Desteria]

1) Get rid of this +bab bonus that monks get in game. monks are a 3/4 class and just raising their bab to emulate flurry is a lazy workarund.

The prblem with this is that HOW DDO implemeted furyr of blows in a LOT of ways makes it very similar to the PnP effect BECAUSE of the backways attack chain in DDO.
i.e. in PnP fluryr of blowes gives a monk More attack at a higher to hit value in the end givign them evne 1 mroe attakc then eveyr one else in DDO havign Full BAB gives you more attacks at higher to hit values.

What i do think is maby flurry shoudl have ALso had a inate haste built in with monkweapon and unarmed attacks not neccicarly much but about 5% stackign with every thing BUT also applie a -2 to hit when turned on that -2 to hit woudl lessasen at the apriate levels it does in PnP.

There area a few possibel fixes for fist DPS they are the same things that fix fist DPS in PnP let them TWF, easy fix make hadwraps a one handed weapon and now the game can tell if you want ot twf or singe weapon attack, give new monks 2 hadwraps of nothign in there inventory so they can chosse either option.
AND/OR Add the Improved Natural attack Feat (monks fist die up very veyr nicely onvr they get going ie 2d10-->4d8-->6d8) & monks belt(only needed before level 20) & add Enlarge person type effect in to the game that scales up monk fists this makes a much bigger effect on monks then any other weapons because of the base dice monks start to get.

[Aranticus]

I guess I wasn't clear. I was referring to DPS. I have other issues with them, but this is a thread about monk DPS so I was trying to stay on topic. In my opinion TWF and quarterstaff have acceptable DPS, but they could use minor improvements. I'd like to see Ki regen naturally when under cap and I think quarterstaff should be able to use Stunning Blow.

With the AC that monks have available it's going to be hard to justify any significant increase in damage other than to bring unarmed up to par with the other two options.

the ki issue is fine. its the ki degradation issue which is not. in long fights ie part 1 n 4 shroud. you can generate alot of ki very quickly. this means boss fights are optimal for monks to use their ki abilities. however, most of the quests have fights that are short (or at least made short by being able to kill mobs so fast) that the generation of ki becomes insignificant compared to the amout of ki degraded when moving to the next fight

make the degradation rate slower and monks will be more attractive

[GlassCannon]

So you folks REALLY hate Monk Pures that much? You want to see nothing but dualwielding b*sta*d builds running all over the place exploiting the AC bonus?

Seriously, Monk Unarmed needs a boost, and weapons need a little nerf, not the other way around.

Additionally, due to the comparison between real phsysics of unarmed vs weapon combat, Monk Pures need to be getting at least the identical amount of hits per round Unarmed as a GTWF user does.

To be blunt, weapons are slow. Fists and feet are lightning fast. Some weapons can be "fast" wielded by an expert, but ultimately an unarmed fighter with comparable experience and training is hands-down faster.

[redoubt]

What's the point of high AC if nothing is attacking you because you can't get aggro?

ah... not getting hit? I'm pretty sure that's the point of high AC.

Using the super high AC monks can get, which makes them highly survivable, as the reason for increasing dps is flawed logic. Take the flip side of this argument:

"My sorc can out dps any melee in the game. Because I can do so much dps and generate so much aggro I should have the AC of a monk!!! Because what is the point of doing that much damage if I'm getting hit all the time???"

Are you seeing how that is a flawed argument yet?

[salmag]

There area a few possible fixes for fist DPS. They are the same things that fix fist DPS in PnP. Let them TWF, easy fix make handwraps a one handed weapon and now the game can tell if you want to TWF or singe weapon attack, give new monks 2 handwraps of nothing in their inventory so they can choose either option.

the ki issue is fine. its the ki degradation issue which is not. in long fights ie part 1 n 4 shroud. you can generate alot of ki very quickly. this means boss fights are optimal for monks to use their ki abilities. however, most of the quests have fights that are short (or at least made short by being able to kill mobs so fast) that the generation of ki becomes insignificant compared to the amout of ki degraded when moving to the next fight

make the degradation rate slower and monks will be more attractive

I agree with these two points, especially the handwrap fix.