Please advise on spell selection.

[Leyoni]

Leyoni is nearing L13 and I am getting ready to adjust my spells for end-game content. He is my first caster to get this far so I have some questions on spell selection.

I initially followed a build guide and set Leyoni up to be a pure offensive caster. I have taken very few buff spells and no crowd control at all. My feats have gone into Force of Personality, Maximize, Empower, Extend and Heighten. I am considering exchanging Heighten for Enlarge and then picking up Heighten again later. I hardly ever use Heighten so I don't think I'll miss it -- could be wrong.

My planned spell list is:

L1: Jump, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield
L2: Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
L3: Displacement, Haste, Heroism, Magic Circle Against Evil
L4: Enervation, Phantasmal Killer, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill
L6: Chain Lightning, Flesh to Stone, True Seeing
L7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Finger of Death
L8: Polar Ray

I am not really built for the PK/FoD line and haven't taken feats or enhancements to support it. I have focused on the cold/fire and acid/electrical damage enhancements. I can put enhancements into spell penetration.

Advice please.

Thx

[Stormanne]

I'd swap out for Acid Fog, Hold Monster, Mass Charm. If you can't instant kill em, make em your own personal army...

[nochipatzin]

That depends if you are a nukker or you like buf people

Lv1 jump, tumbble, magc missile,Shield
Lv2 Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, web( a little CC for a nuker always fine :P ), knock ( dont need blur if you have displacement.
Lv3 Displacement, Fireball, Haste, Rage (don´t need ac and need con.)
Lv4 Dimension Door, Enervation, Solid Fog (more CC :P) Wall of Fire.
Lv5 Cone of Cold, Teleport, Ball Lightning,
Lv6 Disintegrate,Greater Heroism, Flesh to Stone,
Lv7 Banishment,Finger of Death
Lv8 Polar Ray

is my humble opinion :P
By the way i am a nukker

[Mithran]

1. Chill Touch, Jump, Magic Missile, Tumble
2. Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Web
3. Fireball, Halt Undead, Haste, Rage
4. Dimension Door, Enervate, Phantasmal Killer, Wall of Fire
5. Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Hold Monster, Teleport
6. Acid Fog, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone
7. Banishment, Finger of Death
8. Polar Ray

Looking at my choices now, I haven't really reorganized since she hit cap (she's still a relatively new build), so I may still make a few changes.

[Aesop]

My planned spell list is:

L1: Jump, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement
L2: Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Web
L3: Displacement, Haste, Heroism, Magic Circle Against Evil not sure
L4: Enervation, Phantasmal Killer, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill GH
L6: Chain Lightning, Flesh to Stone, True Seeing
L7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Finger of Death
L8: Polar Ray Otto's Irresistable Dance

I'd change those in Red to the ones I added on the end... but that's just opinion of course

Aesop

[Mithran]

Nightshield, in lieu of either Mage Armor or Shield.
Having reviewed my own list, I'll be swapping out Magic Missile for Nightshield at the first opportunity.

[Lymnus]

L1: Jump, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield (Be sure to carry a Wand of Ray of Enfeeblement for portals.)
L2: Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
L3: Displacement, Haste, Protection from Energy/Fireball, Rage (Rage should be this level, will help your HP.)
L4: Enervation, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill
L6: Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate
L7: Otto's Dancing Ball, Finger of Death
L8: Polar Ray

My suggestions in bold.

Taking out PK may make a lot of sorcs out there shake their heads at me, but I've experienced that FoD alone is sufficient for my needs, and fire shield can take it's place.

[Geonis]

My list looks like:

Level 1

Chill Touch
Nightshield
Magic Missile
Jump


There aren't many useful spells here at end game. Taking Shield or Mage Armor is a waste of a slot. Your AC isn't going to matter anyway. Ray of Enfeeblement is okay, but mostly used on portals in Shroud (does that even work anymore?). The other level 1 spells have lost their usefulness here by now. Nightshield and Jump will be standard buffs, the MM and Chill Touch are situationally useful.



Level 2

Scorching Ray
Resist Energy
Web
Blur

The only other useful spells at level 2 are Glitterdust (especially if there's a Rogue or 3 in the party) and possibly Otto's Resistable Dance (though I hate the range on this spell). If you are using the stat spells at end game, there are bigger problems here, and False Life is like ****ing into the wind, stick with damage mitigation through Stoneskin/Blur/Displacement/movement.



Level 3

Fireball
Haste
Displacement
Rage

Not a lot of choices at this level. First 3 are have to have spells, Rage is a good way to get a few extra HPs and a couple point top your Will save with a good duration, and the melees love you even more. It could be swapped for Protect from Energy.



Level 4

Stoneskin
Enervation
Wall of Fire
Fear

Stoneskin and Wall of Fire are necessities here. Enervation is a great spell for those high save mobs. Fear is awesome for those "Oh ****!" moments, and great for (don't kill the spiders) quest. Let the Bard or Wiz mem Dimension Door. Some folks go with PK, but the double save really isn't worth the few seconds for Finger to re-up.



Level 5

Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Dominate Person
Hold Monster

Con of Cold is necessary, and Hold Monster only a little less so. Dominate Person is a personal choice, as it brings someone on your team for a good long while. Cloudkill is not real useful in end game raids, but for soloing the Vale and a couple of the Vale quests, it's useful. Not much else at this level.



Level 6

Acid Fog
Chain Lightning
Flesh to Stone

Acid Fog is a great crowd control, and with Sup Pot 6, Acid Enhancements, Max, and Empower, does okay damage. Chain Lightning is great multi-mob damage, and is the only Lightning spell I mem. Flesh to Stone is mostly for Tor runs, but is useful elsewhere.



Level 7

Finger of Death
Otto's Sphere

Finger of Death is self explanatory, and Sphere is the best crowd control in the game (other than maybe Heightened Web).



Level 8

Polar Ray

Not really a lot of alternatives, and it doesn't get used much, because normally Cone of Cold does more damage. Irresistable Dance is a good alternative, or Grtr Shout for the stun (auto-crit) effect.

[Leyoni]

I'd change those in Red to the ones I added on the end... but that's just opinion of course

Aesop

I guess that AC just doesn't matter. I can't get mine up very high so doing without Mage Armor makes sense.

In the same vein, HP don't seem to matter either. If I'm going to get hit then I'm going to be killed -- nothing much that I can do about it. But see the next paragraph. I'd be more inclined to swap Blur for Web if the best suggestion is that I take Web.

At L3 I'm not sure either. I can see the point about Rage that others have posted but personally am not a big fan of it. OTOH, if I take Rage then I might as well keep False Life at L2. Not sure the extra CON really matters as the HP boost is marginal. I don't see a strong argument for taking Rage here.

I see the recommendations of others for L4. I can't see taking DD. I love Stoneskin and can't imagine being without it. It is the only thing that keeps me alive most of the time. I would never consider swapping it for DD. Am not looking to do crowd control, so Solid Fog is definitely off the list as well. If I grab Web at L2 then it will have to do.

I considered Greater Heroism at L5. If I take it then I can drop Heroism at L3 for Rage. Currently I have Halt Undead but seldom use it. Does it work in the Tor and up? If not then a swap of Heroism for Rage at L3 and GH at L5 would work.

I also thought about Otto's at L8. Might be the better choice.

Thx.

[Leyoni]

I'd swap out for Acid Fog, Hold Monster, Mass Charm. If you can't instant kill em, make em your own personal army...

I am working on a second Sorcerer now, Epluribus Unum, that is on this path. "Out of Many One" you know.

[Leyoni]

Level 7

Finger of Death
Otto's Sphere

Level 8

currently Polar Ray, not really a lot of alternatives, and it doesn't get used much, because normally Cone of Cold does more damage.

Yeah, stuck on L8 spell. If Polar Ray doesn't do it then I'll go with Aesop's suggestion about Otto's.

Talking Otto, is the Sphere a better choice at L7? If I drop Delayed Blast Fireball should I take regular Fireball at L3?

[Lymnus]

You won't be using your level 8 spell much. Don't worry about it, Otto's is a touch if that means anything to you.

Personally, as a sorcerer, I prefer Otto's Ball over DBFB. Merely because it keeps mobs still, and I can stack a firewall and not need to kite. Also, some quests (thinking Stormreaver here) require that spell for common tactics.

At high levels, your AC won't matter until it gets into the 70s. And, assuming you wanted armor, you'd be wearing +8 Armor bracers anyways. So, the mage armor is realistically kept for a placeholder.

Rage increases HP by 16.

[Leyoni]

L1: Jump, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield (Be sure to carry a Wand of Ray of Enfeeblement for portals.)
L2: Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
L3: Displacement, Haste, Protection from Energy/Fireball, Rage (Rage should be this level, will help your HP.)
L4: Enervation, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill
L6: Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate
L7: Otto's Dancing Ball, Finger of Death
L8: Polar Ray

My suggestions in bold.

Taking out PK may make a lot of sorcs out there shake their heads at me, but I've experienced that FoD alone is sufficient for my needs, and fire shield can take it's place.

Thanks.

Going with all that's been posted, if I keep Blur at L2 can I drop Displacement at L3?

Right now I have Displacement and not Blur. I find that I almost never cast Displacement because it just doesn't last very long. I have to remember to cast it before nearly every encounter and I generally forget. Even extended it doesn't last long. I know Blur doesn't give as much protection, but it will last longer so I'm more likely to use it.

The build is geared towards cold/fire/electric damage and not towards insta-kill. I think that is for a different build (like the mass charm and crowd control build I have planned for Epluribus). I include PK and FoD only because there don't seem to be better choices. However, Otto's Sphere of Dancing at L7 may be a better choice than FoD.

I can see not having PK if your FoD lands. But, see just above about not being an insta-kill build. Changing PK for Fire Shield probably makes sense now that I'm (mostly) past the VoN stuff. Maybe a swap for when I'm clearly past the VoN series.

In any case, thanks for the suggestions.

[Leyoni]

You won't be using your level 8 spell much. Don't worry about it, Otto's is a touch if that means anything to you.

Personally, as a sorcerer, I prefer Otto's Ball over DBFB. Merely because it keeps mobs still, and I can stack a firewall and not need to kite. Also, some quests (thinking Stormreaver here) require that spell for common tactics.

At high levels, your AC won't matter until it gets into the 70s. And, assuming you wanted armor, you'd be wearing +8 Armor bracers anyways. So, the mage armor is realistically kept for a placeholder.

Rage increases HP by 16.

Thanks.

Yeah, I know Otto's are touch spells (except the Sphere). And, I figured Sphere was pretty much required for Reaver.

Right now I use +4 deflection bracers plus Mage Armor. I really haven't put much effort into gear. You are right that with armor bracers Mage Armor becomes moot. I'll have to rethink that spell as it is clearly suboptimal.

Is it just me or do all the L8 spells suck? I guess it is a matter of which sucks less....

Edit: Forgot, I get more HP out of False Life than I'll get out of Rage. Only seems to make sense to take Rage if I take both spells.

[Geonis]

Thanks.

Going with all that's been posted, if I keep Blur at L2 can I drop Displacement at L3?

Right now I have Displacement and not Blur. I find that I almost never cast Displacement because it just doesn't last very long. I have to remember to cast it before nearly every encounter and I generally forget. Even extended it doesn't last long. I know Blur doesn't give as much protection, but it will last longer so I'm more likely to use it.

The build is geared towards cold/fire/electric damage and not towards insta-kill. I think that is for a different build (like the mass charm and crowd control build I have planned for Epluribus). I include PK and FoD only because there don't seem to be better choices. However, Otto's Sphere of Dancing at L7 may be a better choice than FoD.

I can see not having PK if your FoD lands. But, see just above about not being an insta-kill build. Changing PK for Fire Shield probably makes sense now that I'm (mostly) past the VoN stuff. Maybe a swap for when I'm clearly past the VoN series.

In any case, thanks for the suggestions.

I keep Blur and Displacement, I hand out Blur to everyone at the start of a quest, and it last 32 minutes (Extend Spell), and use Displacement in tight quarters on myself, it lasts 3 mins 12 sec (Extend Spell).

Pk for Fire Shiled is a good choice, especially for Shroud (Pit Fiend tosses DBF for about 250).

[Leyoni]

I appreciate all the help. Here is my revised list based on your advice. I've included explanations along the way.

L1: Jump, Magic Missile, Nightshield, Shield

Nightshield instead of Mage Armor based on the assumption that I'll eventually optimize my equipment and have both AC bracers and protection items.

L2: Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray

Keeping this as is. Seems the best combination of spells for my needs. Thanks for the advice on Blur.

L3: Displacement, Fireball, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil

Swap in Fireball for Heroism. Taking Greater Heroism later so that frees a slot. Personally I like Magic Circle and am not a fan of Rage. This is just a personal preference and I may need to think more about it. Seems lots of people carry Rage so my not having it may not matter a lot.

L4: Enervation, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire

Fire Shield here in place of PK once I finish VoNs on elite for the favor.

L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill

No change here. Cone of Cold is the only one I'm 100% sure about. Still open to suggestions on L5 alternatives.

L6: Chain Lightning, Flesh to Stone, Greater Heroism

Dropped Heroism at L3 so taking GH here. Fits better with my ideas on the build than the other spells, although I still like True Seeing.

L7: Otto’s Sphere of Dancing, Finger of Death

Convinced on the dancing sphere. FoD becomes my lone insta-kill spell. DBFB seems less important if I take FB as a L3 spell.

L8: Otto’s Irresistible Dance

OK, all the choices suck. Since I get to wait until the end on this one maybe I'll get a better idea then....

Once more, thanks to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

[noinfo]

L7: Bansihment, Finger of Death
L8: Polar Ray

My suggestions in bold.

Taking out PK may make a lot of sorcs out there shake their heads at me, but I've experienced that FoD alone is sufficient for my needs, and fire shield can take it's place.

after Reaver I prefer to have banishment over dancing ball and use heightened webs for cc. You can eliminate multiple mobs easily in vale and vale quests using it. Completely useless in shoud. In Reaver you will be frowned on for not having it, but Sorcs and Wiz can generally kill the air eles fast anyway and makes it much more fun.

[stockwizard5]

I appreciate all the help. Here is my revised list based on your advice. I've included explanations along the way.

L1: Jump, Magic Missile, Nightshield, Shield
L2: Blur, False Life, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
L3: Displacement, Fireball, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil
L4: Enervation, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloudkill
L6: Chain Lightning, Flesh to Stone, Greater Heroism
L7: Otto’s Sphere of Dancing, Finger of Death
L8: Otto’s Irresistible Dance

First the good news ... the set is reasonable but I would change the following either way ...

Shield (your AC useless and you have Nightshield) --> Tumble (for Reaver or whatever other spell you like)
Fireball (have WoF) --> Protection from Energy (simply a must have)
Magic Circle (useless) --> Halt Undead (for undead) or Rage (for party + HP)
Enervation (really nice spell ... but) --> Dimension Door (you will need unless you have scrolls)
Chain Lightning (you have ball) --> Disintigrate (number of targets immune to everything you have)

Now the bad news ...

The spells in RED are NEVER going to land in end-game content. The combined effects of Spell Resistance (you have very low Spell Pen) and Saves (you have low DC) will make them useless. ...

And if that's not enough ...

The spells in PURPLE will be somewhat effective but you are going to have issues with many targets because of saves (you have low DC so some will take half while others take zero) and total damage (hard to maximize damage and crits from multiple energy types).

Damage spells without saves, spells schools, spell pen, and enhancement types are your friends - once you narrow this some additonal work on your spell list would be in order - Hope this helps

[GrayOldDruid]

One thing to think about before dropping PK.

Shroud part 1. Three trogs pop at the portals. FoD, PK, FoD and they are all gone.
OR
FoD ... wait.... wait FoD... wait... wait... FoD

I like the FoD (****) PK (whew) quickness.

Flesh to Stone is only really useful in Let Sleeping Dust Lie - where people complain if you don't have it for the last three spiders. Other than that, it rarely gets through SR or Saves.

Otto's Sphere does hit in the Shroud, sometimes. I will probably be getting Banishment to replace it soon. Solid Fog is much more useful and comes on Clickies Greater Shout.... hmmm.... FoD hits trogs in the Shroud... devils and orothons not so much, but sometimes. Then again, I've taken Spell Pen feat, Enhancements, etc....

Dimension Door is uber-handy to have in the Vale, Underground....

Disintigrate has just never done much good for me. Its a Ray spell, so misses if they move and I've never seen great damage from it.

.....

[Leyoni]

First the good news ... the set is reasonable but I would change the following either way ...

Shield (your AC useless and you have Nightshield) --> Tumble (for Reaver or whatever other spell you like)
Fireball (have WoF) --> Protection from Energy (simply a must have)
Magic Circle (useless) --> Halt Undead (for undead) or Rage (for party + HP)
Enervation (really nice spell ... but) --> Dimension Door (you will need unless you have scrolls)
Chain Lightning (you have ball) --> Disintigrate (number of targets immune to everything you have)

Now the bad news ...

The spells in RED are NEVER going to land in end-game content. The combined effects of Spell Resistance (you have very low Spell Pen) and Saves (you have low DC) will make them useless. ...

And if that's not enough ...

The spells in PURPLE will be somewhat effective but you are going to have issues with many targets because of saves (you have low DC so some will take half while others take zero) and total damage (hard to maximize damage and crits from multiple energy types).

Damage spells without saves, spells schools, spell pen, and enhancement types are your friends - once you narrow this some additonal work on your spell list would be in order - Hope this helps

OK, glad to see I'm not entirely screwed up....

I'll have to think about DD.

I don't remember that many undead after Tor. Can't justify Halt Undead if it isn't going to get used. Already discussed Rage. Aren't most enemy evil?

Protection from Energy instead of Fireball. Check.

Not sold on Disintegrate but can see. With DC problems on insta-kill spells won't this be pretty much wasted for me?

Thx for the continued refinement.