Please advise on spell selection.

[Merkinsal]

I use stoneskin on wands to free up another level 4 spell slot.

[~Glouscester]

Flesh to Stone is only really useful in Let Sleeping Dust Lie - where people complain if you don't have it for the last three spiders. Other than that, it rarely gets through SR or Saves.

Otto's Sphere does hit in the Shroud, sometimes. I will probably be getting Banishment to replace it soon. Solid Fog is much more useful and comes on Clickies Greater Shout.... hmmm.... FoD hits trogs in the Shroud... devils and orothons not so much, but sometimes. Then again, I've taken Spell Pen feat, Enhancements, etc....

Dimension Door is uber-handy to have in the Vale, Underground....

Disintigrate has just never done much good for me. Its a Ray spell, so misses if they move and I've never seen great damage from it.

.....

1) Why is flesh to stone not useful? I regularly land it on mobs in end game content and melees love auto-crit.

2) Ottos, FoD, PK, and Flesh to Stone can easily hit on end game content with the proper equipment and enhancement lines.

3) Disintegrate is most useful when cast up close and personal with your target. Unless of course they are the size of a barn. I regularly hit for 500+ per disintegrate. Not only is it a high damage spell, but it's damage type is good for a wide variety of mobs. Then again, I use magic missile and force missiles for the same reason.

I'd say your best bet is to get spells that go well with the enhancements you have chosen. If you are fire/cold or acid/lightning spec'd...go with those spells. If you aren't spec'd for DC, don't take spells that require it. You can always change spells out. You don't have to be like every other sorc in the game.

[Leyoni]

How do you spec for DC? Doesn't it mean taking the Spell Focus feat? You'd need to take at least 2 or 3 to really matter -- Necromancy and Illusion at the very least. And, you end up with a +2 to your DC over what you can get without them.

I understand that it increases the chance that the enemy will fail their save -- but, is it really that necessary? Can't I sneak through with Enervation to drop them a few levels and then land my spell?

I can see grabbing up the Spell Penetration feats and enhancements. Those make better sense to me as DC won't matter if I can't get past spell resistance. That much I understand.

But, I can hit CHA 36 by level cap. With Heighten I'll be hitting 10+13+8=31. I can get focus items to push it to 32. Do I really need it to be 34? If so, what do I give up in feats in exchange?

At the moment my feats are suboptimal as I've found out. After fixing in the next few days they will be: Extend Spell, Force of Personality, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration. What do I drop for a Spell Focus feat?

I can hear you saying Force of Personality but I sort of enjoy not failing Will saves. The others seem to be just about required.

Disintegrate sounds more useful than I'd considered before. Thanks for the information there.

[Leyoni]

I use stoneskin on wands to free up another level 4 spell slot.

Doesn't even compare IMO. I cast a 120 point stoneskin now. Wands never got me there. OTOH, it has to be cheaper.

[stockwizard5]

...

DC Feats and Items (all Greater Focus at least) are School Based so aligning your spells (with saves) with your school (or schools) selection makes sense. Spell Crit Chance/Multiplier are *type* based so aligning damage *types* also makes sense. The combination of these two defines the kind of sorcerer you are trying to create.

The combination of end-game mobs spell resistence and saves (both of which are well above the max we can currently reach) makes landing difficult. Any additional help you provide the mob (by lower SP or DC) makes it even more difficult. Enervation can increase your landing rate but doubling or tripling your spell point cost to be effective can get mana expensive rather quickly.

As far as feats ... effective Nuking requires Maximize, Empower, and SF/GSF (if there is a save) ... Insta-kill and CC requires SP, GSP, SF, GSF, and Heighten (for all but highest level spells). Add in other usefull stuff like Extend, Toughness, UMD, and apparently your desire for FoP and you face the tough decisions every sorcerer has to make.

PS: Stoneskin is DR 10 from both wands and spell - the only difference is how many 10s you can take before it is used up. Although I carry Stoneskin - I can understand dropping it and using wands that provide the same benefit, an extra spell, and save mana in exchange for costing plat and needing to be cast twice as often. Either way you should carry wands for helping the party during mana limited quests (e.g. Visions).

PPS: Yes - most Mobs are Evil - but exactly what protection does PfE provide? Sorcs have the most limited (vs usefull) spell selection - are you carrying buffs more suited to be carried by other party members or are they equally effective off scrolls?

[Leyoni]

DC Feats and Items (all Greater Focus at least) are School Based so aligning your spells (with saves) with your school (or schools) selection makes sense. Spell Crit Chance/Multiplier are *type* based so aligning damage *types* also makes sense. The combination of these two defines the kind of sorcerer you are trying to create.

The combination of end-game mobs spell resistence and saves (both of which are well above the max we can currently reach) makes landing difficult. Any additional help you provide the mob (by lower SP or DC) makes it even more difficult. Enervation can increase your landing rate but doubling or tripling your spell point cost to be effective can get mana expensive rather quickly.

As far as feats ... effective Nuking requires Maximize, Empower, and SF/GSF (if there is a save) ... Insta-kill and CC requires SP, GSP, SF, GSF, and Heighten (for all but highest level spells). Add in other usefull stuff like Extend, Toughness, UMD, and apparently your desire for FoP and you face the tough decisions every sorcerer has to make.

Alright. If I understand this you are saying that I should take Spell Focus: Evocation if I am a nuke build (which was the original premise) to increase the DC of my cold/electric/fire spells (all Evocation school). You are advising against Spell Penetration for nuke builds. Is this because spell resistance doesn't apply to the nuke spells? Or is it just a matter of not having enough feats?

It seems players expect certain things from casters. Is it better to take Spell Penetration so those insta-kill spells that they expect hit? If I don't then what use are the insta-kill spells to me? Enervation it order to help them land seems a better choice than constantly failing (so not casting, so wasted spell slot = angry party because you can't do what is expected).

I'll end up with 6 feats. I can't get everything -- maybe should have been a wizard. I go with Maximize (no brainer), Heighten (improves DC), Spell Focus: Evocation (better nuking), Spell Penetration (for the expected spells). Now what for the last 2? You are correct that I like Force of Personality. That leaves 1 more slot. Is it Empower or Greater Spell Focus or Greater Spell Penetration or Extend?

Right now I'm leaning towards no Spell Focus and going with Extend and Greater Spell Penetration. I think this will fit best with the character.

[Merkinsal]

How do you spec for DC? Doesn't it mean taking the Spell Focus feat? You'd need to take at least 2 or 3 to really matter -- Necromancy and Illusion at the very least. And, you end up with a +2 to your DC over what you can get without them.

I understand that it increases the chance that the enemy will fail their save -- but, is it really that necessary? Can't I sneak through with Enervation to drop them a few levels and then land my spell?

I can see grabbing up the Spell Penetration feats and enhancements. Those make better sense to me as DC won't matter if I can't get past spell resistance. That much I understand.

But, I can hit CHA 36 by level cap. With Heighten I'll be hitting 10+13+8=31. I can get focus items to push it to 32. Do I really need it to be 34? If so, what do I give up in feats in exchange?

At the moment my feats are suboptimal as I've found out. After fixing in the next few days they will be: Extend Spell, Force of Personality, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration. What do I drop for a Spell Focus feat?

I can hear you saying Force of Personality but I sort of enjoy not failing Will saves. The others seem to be just about required.

Disintegrate sounds more useful than I'd considered before. Thanks for the information there.

For a casting Sorc, other than Heighten and the Napkin from Reaver which gives Spell Focus Mastery there is nothing I recommend to increase DC. Sorcs have too few feats to use one just to give a +1 to one school. Unless you want your sorc to be a one shot pony, specializing in one school is too limiting imho and unneeded. With 16 levels a casting sorc has all the feats and enhancements to maximize nuking, maximize spell pen, and maximze high dc (-1 or -2 for spell focus feats in one school) to land all spells well. I can't see any logic in nurfing combos of empower and maximize or both spell pens to give that spell focus increase to fod or ... what? If fod will not work the chances are it will never work and the time then is for the sorc to use some CC to help out the melee. This is a team game after all. One exception to that rule is envervation and that is worth a dozen Spell Focus feats. Nuking was mentioned but hopefully not seriously. Spending two feats because some mob might make a reflex save on a nuke spell is a waste of feats.

The real challenge comes not in feat selection but in the enhancements and spell selection and there are many ways to go there. The how, when, and where you run your sorc opens all kinds of possibilities.

To be an effective caster end game a sorc needs to be able to use heal scrolls and needs the umd to do that. If the sorc needs Spell Focus UMD for +3 to umd to get there, that feat has to be taken.

All this assumes a sorc wants to be well balanced for a variety of quests, not a one shot pony.

[Merkinsal]

The nuking sorc went the way of the dodo bird starting at level 10 and is extinct in the vale. That doesn't mean an end game sorc can't nuke with the best of them. There is plenty of room for Maximize, Empower, Superior Potency items, Enchancements in both crit chance and crit damage, Maniupulation increases, and lore items. Only takes two feats. A total waste to take a spell focus feat on the off chance something will roll a reflex save.

[richieelias27]

...
Flesh to Stone is only really useful in Let Sleeping Dust Lie - where people complain if you don't have it for the last three spiders. Other than that, it rarely gets through SR or Saves.
...
.....

Flesh to stone has the exact same fort and SR check as finger of death and does not include the additional will save of PK. The idea that it gets through SR or Saves any less than FoD (unless you dont use heighten) is all in your head.

Not to mention Flesh to Stone makes melee's feel a little more useful than they would if the target they were hitting suddenly went *poof*. It's kind of like you're saying "I couldve killed it and you know it too, but I decided to let you have fun with it instead."

I would say enchantment is the one school worth taking feats for if you plan on soloing alot through the mid levels, and then respec out of it later. You can easily get yourself through the mid levels casting nothing but self buffs and charm person/monster. Aside from that limited area.... I wouldnt recommend taking DC feats either.

[Merkinsal]

Flesh to stone has the exact same fort and SR check as finger of death and does not include the additional will save of PK. The idea that it gets through SR or Saves any less than FoD (unless you dont use heighten) is all in your head.

Not to mention Flesh to Stone makes melee's feel a little more useful than they would if the target they were hitting suddenly went *poof*. It's kind of like you're saying "I couldve killed it and you know it too, but I decided to let you have fun with it instead."

Also, deathblock will stop FoD but not FtS. The giants in tor and many elsewhere in gianthold have death block but are very suceptable to FtS. Mind Control immunity will stop Pk and Hold Monster but not FtS if I am not mistaken. I find many uses for FtS as a single mob control spell.

[Lymnus]

Feat suggestions:

Empower: Obvious choice.
Maximize: Another obvious choice.
Extend: For haste, and other small duration buffs. Think displacement and such.
Heighten: Makes lower level CC spells viable. Honestly, a Heightened PK costs less SP than a FoD.
Spell Pen and Improved Spell Pen: Needed,realistically, at end game. Monsters have insane SR, you'll probably have to invest in this and enhancements.

That's all the feats, but if you're a human, that leaves you open with something else. Possibly MT or something.

[stockwizard5]

...

Your getting there ...

Let's start with the Nuking Function (role). There is no SR roll on damaging spells (generally). What about DC (Spell Focus Feats / Items / CHA)? If there is no saving throw then Spell DC is not a factor - also area of effect (AOE) may have a save but with multiple targets your odds get better. Is there a sufficient spell set with either no save or area effect? With limited APs (enhancements) available you can only max (or near max) one damage type - so can you combine save/area/type into an effective set (or mostly effective) with maximum impact and minimum investment?

*hint* the answer of course is yes else why would we go down this exercise? The point being you can effectivly nuke (primarily end-bosses and below challenge runs) using two feats (Max/Emp), 12 AP (Crit/Chance), and 1 Gear (Lore). The combination of no save or save but area effect damage can potentially make any type work that will then guide your damage spell selection and enhancement choices so they are complimentary.

That leaves at least four feats to figure out what else you want to do well.

Now we can look at Insta-Kill, Crowd Control, and Debuffing ... we already know they require SP/GSP and are also helped by focus feats. Once again look at the spell set focusing on schools (for potential focus feats and gear). With only two feats now left we have many excellent choices remaining (SF, GSF, Heighten, Extend, Toughness, UMD, and FoP). What are the options? How much are potential spells of your school helped by SF or GSF and how many levels increase is Heighten (that is what are your DC options)? How many spells need extending? Can you get to 39 UMD (heal scroll) without Skill Focus: UMD? Do you have enough HP? And how much is your Will Save worth? The answer to these will help guide where you want to invest your two remaining feats.

*hint* there are greater focus items for some (but not all) spell schools.

You end up with basically three attributes that define the type of sorcerer you are.

1. How do you damage things (Fire/Ice, Acid/Electric, or Force)
2. How do you kill/control/debuff things (Spell School)
3. What else can you do (Buff, Heal, Survive, Other)

These choices end up driving your feats, enhancements, gear, and spell list so that all compliment each other for maximum effectiveness.

[Leyoni]

The nuking sorc went the way of the dodo bird starting at level 10 and is extinct in the vale. That doesn't mean an end game sorc can't nuke with the best of them. There is plenty of room for Maximize, Empower, Superior Potency items, Enchancements in both crit chance and crit damage, Maniupulation increases, and lore items. Only takes two feats. A total waste to take a spell focus feat on the off chance something will roll a reflex save.

Alright, the build guide I used for Leyoni was written after the Vale was introduced. It keys on the notion that fire & cold aren't that useful in the Vale and subs in electric attacks, primarily thru Chain Lightning. So, I'm not certain that nuking is completely gone.

I'm getting the sense that it is situational and that the last point about not wasting feats on spell focus is probably on target. We don't know what will come next, so nuke builds might be handy when new content is released (and might not be). It is pretty expensive and time consuming to constantly respec and swap spells just to keep up with changes in content.

My adjusted thinking is that there are a couple of things that I need to do well and hope that they compliment the group as a whole. First, I need to make sure that my damage spells are doing as much damage as they can to help knock HP off monsters. I understand melee love -- my main character is a barbarian/fighter/ranger hybrid. Knocking HP off monsters without pulling the aggression off the tanks seems a value to the group.

Second, I need to make sure that I can incapacitate or insta-kill things that give the melees trouble. I need one or two spells that will land reliably. That seems to mean taking Spell Penetration (both feats) and putting enhancements into spell penetration. If this is a one-trick pony spell then I can see some argument for taking Spell Focus feats to make sure that the monster's saves are as low as possible (assuming the spell gets past spell resistance).

Third, I need to make sure that I can help out with some minimal form of crowd control. The spell of choice seems to be Web. Because it is a low level spell this means I need Heighten to make sure high end mobs don't just ignore it.

Fourth, I need to have the best possible UMD for Heal and Rez scrolls.

Now, I will only get 6 feats. Maximize, Heighten, Extend, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration -- that takes up 5 of them. Extend may be over-rated. Maybe it should be Empower for more punch on the damage spells. Or, maybe it should be Spell Focus for the one-trick pony spell that I use for incapacitating or insta-killing. If I go the Spell Focus route it should be Transmutation as that will help both Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate.

Disintegrate seems a better insta-kill choice than Finger of Death & Phantasmal Killer as it should apply to all monsters.

I could see taking the 6 feats as: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus: Transmutation, Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation.

I still hate giving up Force of Personality.

[Leyoni]

Your getting there ...

Let's start with the Nuking Function (role). There is no SR roll on damaging spells (generally). What about DC (Spell Focus Feats / Items / CHA)? If there is no saving throw then Spell DC is not a factor - also area of effect (AOE) may have a save but with multiple targets your odds get better. Is there a sufficient spell set with either no save or area effect? With limited APs (enhancements) available you can only max (or near max) one damage type - so can you combine save/area/type into an effective set (or mostly effective) with maximum impact and minimum investment?

*hint* the answer of course is yes else why would we go down this exercise? The point being you can effectivly nuke (primarily end-bosses and below challenge runs) using two feats (Max/Emp), 12 AP (Crit/Chance), and 1 Gear (Lore). The combination of no save or save but area effect damage can potentially make any type work that will then guide your damage spell selection and enhancement choices so they are complimentary.

That leaves at least four feats to figure out what else you want to do well.

Now we can look at Insta-Kill, Crowd Control, and Debuffing ... we already know they require SP/GSP and are also helped by focus feats. Once again look at the spell set focusing on schools (for potential focus feats and gear). With only two feats now left we have many excellent choices remaining (SF, GSF, Heighten, Extend, Toughness, UMD, and FoP). What are the options? How much are potential spells of your school helped by SF or GSF and how many levels increase is Heighten (that is what are your DC options)? How many spells need extending? Can you get to 39 UMD (heal scroll) without Skill Focus: UMD? Do you have enough HP? And how much is your Will Save worth? The answer to these will help guide where you want to invest your two remaining feats.

*hint* there are greater focus items for some (but not all) spell schools.

You end up with basically three attributes that define the type of sorcerer you are.

1. How do you damage things (Fire/Ice, Acid/Electric, or Force)
2. How do you kill/control/debuff things (Spell School)
3. What else can you do (Buff, Heal, Survive, Other)

These choices end up driving your feats, enhancements, gear, and spell list so that all compliment each other for maximum effectiveness.

Thanks.

Right now Leyoni has enhancements to increase damage for both fire/cold and acid/electric attacks. I'm finding that electric attacks don't do as much damage as fire/cold. And, they take more spell points to cast. But, my understanding is that fire/cold are pretty much useless in end fights in the Vale/Shroud. I'm not ready to run there yet so an enhancement restructure might be in order -- keeping fire/cold for now but adding in the critical chance enhancements in place of the acid/electric damage enhancements. OTOH, maybe I should go the acid/lightning route now....

I think that Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate will be my kill/control choices.

What else can I do? My UMD is maxed but as a cross-class skill that isn't very much. I need a 40 for 100% on heal and a 44 for resurrection scrolls. With CHA modifiers I'm sitting at 18 now having just made L13. I don't have any gear to put towards improving UMD but 20 more points seems a long way to go. One option is to grab a level of rogue or bard. Level 8 spells suck and bard seems most complimentary. I can get my UMD to 30 that way leaving me to figure out how to pick up an extra 9-10 points of UMD off of items or buffs. Seems much more likely than trying to get another 19 to 20 points. It will mean getting to 1750 favor and grabbing a +2 INT tome.

Thanks for the insights.

[Merkinsal]

Disintegrate is not an insta-kill spell. It does do very good damage to mobs that resist many other spells but it also has a fortitude save that will result in very low damage. A non fire resistant mob is usually damaged more with scorching ray and alternately a fire resistant mob is hit very well with a cone of cold. Disintegrate is especially effective against undead and golems.

Extend is going to save you a lot of sp. Not just for the buffs but also for web, cloudkill, firewall, dancing ball, fireshield, solid fog, acid fog, displacements, blur, false life, stoneskin, and so on that you will not have to cast twice or as often.

I've been tossing around the idea of dropping empower too but cannot bring my self to do it. 50% more damage is a lot when the spells are getting up into the 300-500 damage range. Strangely enough, if you were willing to do without the damage empower gives, you could keep empower and free up all the spell damage enhancement points in all lines. Those lines only go up to 40% and if you are specing in several lines, you have just saved a dozen or more action points. Personally I wouldn't give up either Empower or the enhancements. While nuking sorcs are extinct, that doesn't mean nuking is.

There would be little as frustrating as a firewall too short in duration or too weak to be able to do the job.

Will you have enough umd for heal scrolls with this last feat list? Umd of 40 is 100% for heal scrolls.You may be able to get away with less some of the time but when you really need a heal is not the time to fail, even a 1 in 10 chance to fail can be too much at the wrong time.

[Leyoni]

Good info.

If I don't take Disintegrate then I can take Greater Heroism. That is a +4 to skills checks. That leaves me 6 short of certain success on Heal scrolls. By splashing a Bard level I can take Focusing Chant for another +1 circumstance bonus. Just need to find a +5 UMD item or get some other stacking bonuses.

That means my one-trick pony spell is Flesh to Stone. I could add Finger of Death. Right now I'm thinking that FoD isn't going to be so useful -- am thinking I should take Waves of Exhaustion instead.

By taking a Bard level I miss out on my L8 spell and one L6 spell. That means dropping Cone of Cold or Chain Lightning. I think I'd need to experiment with them both after resetting enhancements to see which did better damage.

If I go the damage route with feats and enhancements then I take all the crit enhancements for acid/electric and the first 3 damage enhancements for both acid/electric and fire/cold. This is based off the belief that fire/cold isn't useful in end boss fights while electric is at least moderately useful.

Feats then return to Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Extend, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration. Something has to give here though. I expect to be running in the Vale pretty soon and the final feat won't come until L15. I'm thinking I do without GSP until then.

As always, thanks.

[transtemporal]

By end-game content leyoni, do you mean quests or raids? If its the later, i would seriously consider dropping some of the nukes and picking up buffs, de-buffs and cc, along with some decent spell pen. While your burst dps will still be uberz, the current end-game raids are all about the high sustained melee dps, not caster burst dps.

[Leyoni]

Obviously I want to raid the top three raids when I hit level cap.

For Reaver that means disco ball and pike.

For Shroud I have no idea, only been there once on my melee character.

For Hound/VoD I have no idea, have never been there on any character.

I'm seriously revising my spell selections based on this discussion and have made some adjustments to my enhancements and feats. I'm going to give up Force of Personality once the timer resets and retake Empower.

That will put me on Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Extend, Spell Penetration at L13.

Enhancements were just revamped to go with damage and critical enhancements for acid/electrical. Ball lightning will be my main damage spell. I will have Cone of Cold, Wall of Fire and Scorching Ray as backups.

For crowd control I will swap for Web when the timer is up. I also have Flesh to Stone.

For buffs I have Resist Energy and Greater Heroism. I'll swap for Nightshield, Protection from Energy and Fire Shield when the timers are up.

Don't know what to take for debuffs. Am planning to swap for Dispel Magic.

I have a lot of spell swaps that I need to make. So a lot of timers to get through. I just have to prioritize the spell swaps with an eye towards what I'm doing for quests. I need to focus on finishing my favor to 1750 and still need around 200 more points. That should keep me busy enough over the next several days as I go through the swaps (plus, it will fund the effort ).

Spell selection with the major revisions now looks like this:

L1: Magic Missile, Nightshield, Jump, Tumble, Focusing Chant (pick up when I splash Bard at L14)
L2: Scorching Ray, Resist Energy, Web, False Life
L3: Haste, Protection from Energy, Displacement, Dispel Magic
L4: Wall of Fire, Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Enervation
L5: Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cloud Kill
L6: Flesh to Stone, Greater Heroism
L7: Otto's Sphere of Dancing

I have a slot or two at the top where I'm still open to suggestions. Spells in red are spells that I need to pick up through swaps.

In priority order, I think my spell swaps are: Web, Protection from Energy, Nightshield, Fire Shield, Enervation, Tumble, Dispel Magic, Cloud Kill. That means 3 weeks to get it all sorted out. As I don't get to game during peak hours and am not a power gamer that is alright. In the meantime it helps me to know what to do as I build my next characters during the down times.

I can't say often enough how much I appreciate everyone's contributions. Thanks.

[transtemporal]

Sounds good leyoni. Whats your other lvl 6, 7 and 8 at 16 gonna be?

[Aesop]

Sounds good leyoni. Whats your other lvl 6, 7 and 8 at 16 gonna be?

She won't get there til level cap increases due to a level of Bard being taken