Sorc Feats

[jarlaxle_dourden]

There is a general lack of feats for Sorcs.

Below is the list I have chosen for my sorc, I am interested in hearing what others have selected (went human for the extra feat):
Empower
Force of Personality
Mental Toughness
Extend
Improved Mental Toughness
Maximize
Spell Penetration

So from my wish list I am missing:
Enlarge
Greater Spell Penetration
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Heighten
Quicken Spell
Skill Focus UMD

Are there any from the list of feats I have as selected that you would swap out for one in the list of missing feats? If so, why?

[Auran82]

I would swap out both mental toughness feats for Gtr Spell Penetration and Heighten.

Greater spell pen because there is alot of stuff with spell resistance and I can only see this increasing and heighten for cc like web.

As a sorc you should have a heap of sp without needing the mental toughness feats, especially once you make a shroud SP item of at least tier 2.

[sirgog]

My take:

The Must-Haves:
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Pen
Maximize Spell

The Very Good:
Empower Spell
Force of Personality
Extend Spell
SF: UMD

The Nice to Have:
Quicken (most important on WF)
Heighten
Enlarge
Toughness

The Very Overrated:
Both Mental Toughnesses


The two Spell Pen feats are critical, as every Finger of Death, Fear or Suggestion that fails to bypass SR is more than just a waste of SP - it's a potential partywipe if it happens at the wrong time. Likewise Maximize is critical (and Empower strongly advised) for SP-dumping to deal massive burst damage to bosses, especially self-healing bosses.

[sirgog]

I would swap out both mental toughness feats for Gtr Spell Penetration and Heighten.

Greater spell pen because there is alot of stuff with spell resistance and I can only see this increasing and heighten for cc like web.

As a sorc you should have a heap of sp without needing the mental toughness feats, especially once you make a shroud SP item of at least tier 2.

A Tier 1 Shroud item grants a massive SP boost on its own.

I concur with Auran at current endgame. Heighten may become less important in future - it's only key at the moment because mobs have lower Reflex saves than other saves, and Web is the best Reflex save CC spell in game.

[Fennario]

Here is what my sorcerer (also human) is currently running with:

Maximize
Empower
Extend
Heighten
Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen
Force of Personality

Like others here have said, the Mental Toughnesses are just not needed on a sorcerer. With a 34 charisma, the Dragonblooded enhancements, and a tier 3 shroud item you will be sitting at 2310 spell points. My sorcerer has a 36 charisma which gives him 2335.

A 34 charisma is easy to achieve.

A tier 3 shroud item only costs 12 smalls, 12 mediums, and 12 larges, unless you get fancy and put Lightning Strike on it which I don't think is necessary. 12 larges may or may not be hard to get depending on how many characters you have raiding the Shroud.

But even a tier 1 item for just 12 smalls will put you over the 2000 mark.

[unionyes]

Max
Empower
Mental Toughness
Spell Pen

Never cared for Heighten, although have seen others put it to good use. I mainly focused on making the hottest fire and the coldest ice I could, with enough manna to spam the damage.

[Tanka]

Heightened Web is the best CC for Shroud p4 and VoD runs, with Heightened Symbol of Stunning as a close runner-up, followed by Heightened Otto's Sphere of Dancing.

So, Heighten rocks. Otherwise, Extend, Maximize, Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen are good to have.

[frugal_gourmet]

Heightened Web is the best CC for Shroud p4 and VoD runs, with Heightened Symbol of Stunning as a close runner-up, followed by Heightened Otto's Sphere of Dancing.

So, Heighten rocks. Otherwise, Extend, Maximize, Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen are good to have.

Wouldn't a heightened sphere of dancing only increase your success rate up to 1 in 20 times?

[Merkinsal]

Wouldn't a heightened sphere of dancing only increase your success rate up to 1 in 20 times?

+1 on the DC but then the Napkin gives +1 on the DC (or another spell focus item) and a 36 instead of 34 Cha gives +1 on the DC and before you know it you are getting somewhere.

Lets use this plus 3 as an example. The mob has to roll a d20 die to see if your spell DC will hit. Lets assume he has to roll a 15 to save because you don't have any of these DCs added in. Now add in +3. According to your assumption that is only a 15% increase in success rate on the d20 die. But, the mob now has to roll a 18 to save. He only has 3 rolls to save(18,19,20) vs. 6 rolls to save before (15,16,17,18,19,20.) His odds of saving have been cut 50%.

I look at Spell Pen the same way. If I have to roll a 18 to bypass spell pen but because I took the three enhancements I only have to roll a 15, I have doubled my chances to bypass because I have doubled my possible successful rolls.

Same numbers but looked at a different way. One way the advantage seems so small and the other rather significant.

[frugal_gourmet]

+1 on the DC but then the Napkin gives +1 on the DC (or another spell focus item) and a 36 instead of 34 Cha gives +1 on the DC and before you know it you are getting somewhere.

Lets use this plus 3 as an example. The mob has to roll a d20 die to see if your spell DC will hit. Lets assume he has to roll a 15 to save because you don't have any of these DCs added in. Now add in +3. According to your assumption that is only a 15% increase in success rate on the d20 die. But, the mob now has to roll a 18 to save. He only has 3 rolls to save(18,19,20) vs. 6 rolls to save before (15,16,17,18,19,20.) His odds of saving have been cut 50%.

I look at Spell Pen the same way. If I have to roll a 18 to bypass spell pen but because I took the three enhancements I only have to roll a 15, I have doubled my chances to bypass because I have doubled my possible successful rolls.

Same numbers but looked at a different way. One way the advantage seems so small and the other rather significant.

LOL. All right. There's no doubt it's an improvement.

But really that doesn't help me ascertain whether the improvement is worth the cost. I believe, like most things in the game, it's probably situational. Chances are there are going to multiple balls and fogs and webs and what-have-yous going up at the same time in any situation that matters. I guess it's a judgment call.

My own experience as a sorcerer says the only time Heighten is worthwhile or noticeable is at very end game. I might save my respec for that. Maybe carry around some extra sp's with mental toughness. Then respec and get your shroud spell points item.

[Merkinsal]

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I've seen too many balls and webs that mobs just walk thru when they shouldn't. Saw several dancing balls in Reaver not too long ago the elementals didn't know were there for all the good they did in a run of lvl 16s, just as we have all seen firewalls that don't do anything except look good. Webs heightened work extremely well in gianthold long before end game and are a great damage mitigator for the melee. So many of the spells are affected.

Hold monster, Charm monster, PK, FoD, Dancing Ball, Web, and Flesh to Stone just to mention a few all have to bypass both SR and DC. Except for Web we have level 4 spells on up here and these are just a small sampling. I begin noticing spell pen resistance to Pk by the casters in Tempest Spine and that is, what, a level 8-10 quest? I begin noticing Web not hitting well around level 4 in the Harbor without help. Basically, all the schools.

The few extra sp is not good for anything if the caster is reduced to laying down firewalls because nothing else hits or has to recast the other spells. Recasts eat up the extra sp gained from mental toughness and as mentioned, spells need to land when cast or bad things happen. All the spells should work just as well from the time they are taken to end game and all mobs in between if proper stats, feats, enhancements, and gear are chosen.

*Edit* I'm a little slow sometimes I'll admit. I couldn't understand for the longest time why casters were laying down handfuls of dancing balls in reaver when only 2, max 3 are needed to cover the entrance. Duh, lol, its because the casters are used to having mobs save on them. GIMP CHECK! That is not original I agree. I heard it in Shroud the first time when a cleric cast mass Bull Strength on the party to see who it landed on. Heh heh All in fun.

[Tanka]

LOL. All right. There's no doubt it's an improvement.

But really that doesn't help me ascertain whether the improvement is worth the cost. I believe, like most things in the game, it's probably situational. Chances are there are going to multiple balls and fogs and webs and what-have-yous going up at the same time in any situation that matters. I guess it's a judgment call.

My own experience as a sorcerer says the only time Heighten is worthwhile or noticeable is at very end game. I might save my respec for that. Maybe carry around some extra sp's with mental toughness. Then respec and get your shroud spell points item.

The only time you should be casting multiple Spheres and Fogs is in Reaver. Multiples of those in Shroud or VoD are beyond wasteful. You might as well, at that point, be throwing Extended Mage Armor on yourself.

[Vizzini]

Essentials for me:

Maximize
Heighten
Extend
Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen

Enlarge or Quicken I'm tied.. I think most people would say empower, but I'd have to say enlarge is my personal favorite.

There is a general lack of feats for Sorcs.

Below is the list I have chosen for my sorc, I am interested in hearing what others have selected (went human for the extra feat):
Empower
Force of Personality
Mental Toughness
Extend
Improved Mental Toughness
Maximize
Spell Penetration

So from my wish list I am missing:
Enlarge
Greater Spell Penetration
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Heighten
Quicken Spell
Skill Focus UMD

Are there any from the list of feats I have as selected that you would swap out for one in the list of missing feats? If so, why?

[Vizzini]

Your kidding right? Web is like one of the most useful spells I've ever encountered. I still use it in Vale works great against devils and the like.

Also it's great to use in conjunction with the heighten metamagic.

I begin noticing Web not hitting well around level 4 in the Harbor without help.

[Angelus_dead]

The only time you should be casting multiple Spheres and Fogs is in Reaver. Multiples of those in Shroud or VoD are beyond wasteful.

Well, two fogs in VOD can be useful. One on Suulomades to reduce his damage to the MT, and one that the rest of the group can stand in for fighting summoned devils. But more than that is pretty pointless, and also most of the time there aren't actually any summons attacking.

[Tanka]

Well, two fogs in VOD can be useful. One on Suulomades to reduce his damage to the MT, and one that the rest of the group can stand in for fighting summoned devils. But more than that is pretty pointless, and also most of the time there aren't actually any summons attacking.

True enough. No group I've been in with VoD has used Sphere, though. Just Web and maybe a Symbol of Stunning if they were feeling frisky. Most arcanes save their SP for debuffing Suulomades or healing the WF tank (if the group got one for the run).

But that's just the runs I've been in.

[frugal_gourmet]

The only time you should be casting multiple Spheres and Fogs is in Reaver. Multiples of those in Shroud or VoD are beyond wasteful. You might as well, at that point, be throwing Extended Mage Armor on yourself.

Please explain. I'm curious.

[Tanka]

Please explain. I'm curious.

Mana conservation. Unless you feel like chugging mana pots, you're burning mana on CC that should only be lasting as long as each wave of enemies.

Also; Sphere has to bypass SR. Web doesn't. Most creatures have lower Ref saves than Wil saves.

[frugal_gourmet]

Mana conservation. Unless you feel like chugging mana pots, you're burning mana on CC that should only be lasting as long as each wave of enemies.

What I'm curious about is: if I throw down more than one dancing ball am I affecting a higher percentage of monsters? I assumed yes.

[Tanka]

What I'm curious about is: if I throw down more than one dancing ball am I affecting a higher percentage of monsters? I assumed yes.

Only if they fail their save. If they do, it's just as easy to run it out and back in of the AoE.

Again; Heightened Web is (generally) the superior CC used in raids I'm in. Those that spam Sphere in p4-5 of Shroud end up using more SP than those who don't.