Sorc Feats

[frugal_gourmet]

Again; Heightened Web is (generally) the superior CC used in raids I'm in. Those that spam Sphere in p4-5 of Shroud end up using more SP than those who don't.

How many webs do you generally lay down? Let's say in part 4 of the Shroud. I've gone through only 4 or 5 times on my first character, so I could still use some advice.

[Tanka]

The casters I see laying it down generally go with a Sphere, a Fog, a Symbol and a Web or two.

Mind Fog lowers their Wil saves if they fail the save. Dancing Sphere kicks in then. If they save against that or their SR isn't beat, Symbol of Stunning takes over.
Web also kicks in for a Ref save, which most of the enemies in p4 don't have terribly high of.

Realistically, most groups take down Harry with only one set of gnolls spawning, so saving some mana for more CC is a good idea.

[Freeman]

I'm curious, why do so many sorcerers take the Force of Personality feat? Yes, it raises your Will save by at least +10, but are people really having that much trouble with Will saves? From what I've seen, I run into a lot more problems with Fort or Reflex saves, particular at later levels. I can't even remember the last time a failed Will save caused me to die. Fort and Reflex, on the other hand, have caused numerous deaths on my sorc.

[rimble]

I'm curious, why do so many sorcerers take the Force of Personality feat? Yes, it raises your Will save by at least +10, but are people really having that much trouble with Will saves? From what I've seen, I run into a lot more problems with Fort or Reflex saves, particular at later levels. I can't even remember the last time a failed Will save caused me to die. Fort and Reflex, on the other hand, have caused numerous deaths on my sorc.

Yah, I'm with ya on that one.

[gfunk]

Some of the feats that i like that you dont currently use:

Heighten: Required feat IMO.. I have it on at all times. I view it as a real mana saver, as it means I don't have to make multiple attempts at passing DC (I think it makes up for the extra sp needed to have it on). Particularly great for Web**, and PK (I like to have both PK and FOD when I need to take 3 or more mobs down quick).
**I think many people may have neglected web in the mid to mid-high levels due to the domination of firewall (which eats through webs). Currently at end game, fire wall is less dominant and so web has become far more useful
greater spell penetration: I dont think I have to expound much upon my reasons for this one... also a mana saver for obvious reasons (at end game).
Enlarge: I have this so that i can kill beholders without having to get too close (kind of makes up for lower will save). Its also nice for my biweekly reaver runs to snipe air elementals from a distance (though not really neccesary). I see this feat as a bit more optional.

I would take the above feats over any extra mana feats (just get a shroud or wiz 6 item). Also, I used to have force of personality, but dumped it as I haven't found it to be terribly useful.

Incidently i keep heighten, maximize and empower on at most times. I don't have tonnes of mana (2270) but I find that even with all these feats turned on, i typically have sufficient mana to run through an entire raid. I ran a shroud a couple days ago where I was the only caster and drank just 1 mana pot (though i didnt really need to)

[Vizzini]

Amen! Glad I'm not the only one to appreciate those feats! I do almost the exact same thing >

One question how is 2270 not that much sp? I have a level 15 sorc with like 1800 and I'm trying my best to figure out how to grind out enough to get past the 2000 barrier. Granted I don't have my Shroud item or Skiver yet (So **** though to grind out) I do have a pop x atm anything else I'm obviously missing?

Some of the feats that i like that you dont currently use:

Heighten: Required feat IMO.. I have it on at all times. I view it as a real mana saver, as it means I don't have to make multiple attempts at passing DC (I think it makes up for the extra sp needed to have it on). Particularly great for Web**, and PK (I like to have both PK and FOD when I need to take 3 or more mobs down quick).
**I think many people may have neglected web in the mid to mid-high levels due to the domination of firewall (which eats through webs). Currently at end game, fire wall is less dominant and so web has become far more useful
greater spell penetration: I dont think I have to expound much upon my reasons for this one... also a mana saver for obvious reasons (at end game).
Enlarge: I have this so that i can kill beholders without having to get too close (kind of makes up for lower will save). Its also nice for my biweekly reaver runs to snipe air elementals from a distance (though not really neccesary). I see this feat as a bit more optional.

I would take the above feats over any extra mana feats (just get a shroud or wiz 6 item). Also, I used to have force of personality, but dumped it as I haven't found it to be terribly useful.

Incidently i keep heighten, maximize and empower on at most times. I don't have tonnes of mana (2270) but I find that even with all these feats turned on, i typically have sufficient mana to run through an entire raid. I ran a shroud a couple days ago where I was the only caster and drank just 1 mana pot (though i didnt really need to)

[Anthios888]

Mana:
You don't need to grind for skiver if you enjoy doing a few raids - the hound has a couple of fairly accessible mana items (lorrik's necklace for wiz VI and ring of thelis for Wiz VII, spell resistance 22, and empower).

Even a second-tier greensteel item will be a noticeable boost (100) to you even if you skip the wizardry VI and hope for other raid loot. If you're short on large ingredients, you can opt for a single shard upgrade and still get 200 mana and a boost to your UMD or something from it.

Long term, you can get set up with blue dragonscale light armor or robes (greater arcane spell lore, spell penetration), and dual wield potency and a greensteel weapon to boost your charisma by 3 (another mana boost). The bracer/glove set from Vision of Destruction will take care of the other aspects of the skiver and enable you to get all of those bonuses as well as utilizing the bonus greensteel charisma to help your DCs and mana. Certainly a lot of grinding, but more varied and exciting in my opinion than farming tome pages

[Montrose]

I'm curious, why do so many sorcerers take the Force of Personality feat? Yes, it raises your Will save by at least +10, but are people really having that much trouble with Will saves? From what I've seen, I run into a lot more problems with Fort or Reflex saves, particular at later levels. I can't even remember the last time a failed Will save caused me to die. Fort and Reflex, on the other hand, have caused numerous deaths on my sorc.

It allows you to completely dump wisdom as a stat. I just rolled up a WF sorc with a wisdom of 6, which allowed me 4 points to put in other stats.

[Vengenance]

I consider these to be most important to any caster at end game:
1) Heighten
2) Maximize
3) Spell Pen I
4) Spell Pen II

Very Good Feats:
5) Extend (for Haste, Web, DB, etc.)
6) Empower (for when you want to combine with maximize for extra damage)

Good Feats:
7) Enlarge (love this feat, great for Insta-killing monsters from far away)
8) SF:UMD (Heal scrolls FTW)

Ok feats:
9) Force of Personality (really, how often are you being held?)
10) MT (You have 2000+ SP, do you need much more than that)
11) IMT (You have SP control issues if you need both MT & IMT)

Personally I have the first 6 I listed, if I were Human I would add Enlarge or SF:UMD.

[Tanka]

It allows you to completely dump wisdom as a stat. I just rolled up a WF sorc with a wisdom of 6, which allowed me 4 points to put in other stats.

Why bother? A WF is immune to most Wis-save spells anyway. The few they aren't immune to they have spells that can protect them from them.

Also; Sorcs have good Will saves at base. FoP isn't necessary at all.

[Desteria]

How many webs do you generally lay down? Let's say in part 4 of the Shroud. I've gone through only 4 or 5 times on my first character, so I could still use some advice.

well if your gorup is capabel of NOT scatering all over the place i noramly use 2 for the fist pull then one on the south portal, then one or 2 between each round assumign we even go to a 2nd round onyl do about 25% of the tiem now I'd say, but then I run a lot of my shroudh runs as speed runs now

in VoD now I lose count of how mainy webs i use i drop 1-2 every tiem there are bearded deveil on the groud, and replace it if it gets firebaleld befor they are all dead, and then cover the floor in them for the death bats at the end...

The key thing about web is un hightened is significantly less succesfull ie level 8-2 = 6 level = +6 DC = 30% less effective, and it is SOOOO nice because it is one of the few effects that actualy stops deilvs telaporting dance and hold do not.
NOTE: this really is backwards hold should not it still alows mental actions WEB should not it only should stop movment and hinder attacks BUT DANCE should stop telaporting since it is a compution that stops you from doing any thing else BUT dancing.

[Grimdiegn]

Your kidding right? Web is like one of the most useful spells I've ever encountered. I still use it in Vale works great against devils and the like.

Also it's great to use in conjunction with the heighten metamagic.

Why would you be using anything but dismissal on devils in the vale?

30 spell points and it gone unless I roll a 1 on my spell pen check.

[MrCow]

Why bother? A WF is immune to most Wis-save spells anyway. The few they aren't immune to they have spells that can protect them from them.

Greater Command and Feebleminded are the two spells that made me feel it was worthwhile to take Force of Personality as a Warforged Sorcerer.

[Merkinsal]

Your kidding right? Web is like one of the most useful spells I've ever encountered. I still use it in Vale works great against devils and the like.

Also it's great to use in conjunction with the heighten metamagic.

You misunderstood and took this out of context. There was an ongoing topic here spanning several posts. Web is only a useful spell if the feat Heighten is taken, as with all DC spells. My point was Heighten is a necessary feat if using any DC spells and take it early. There are so many spells that require spell pen and both spell pen and heighten that max spell pen is also necessary.

[Merkinsal]

Why would you be using anything but dismissal on devils in the vale?

30 spell points and it gone unless I roll a 1 on my spell pen check.

Personally I found Dismissal to be unnecessary after acquired FoD and so I was able to swap in another level 5 spell.

[Beorn_The_Bear]

This thread is very interesting since i am planning to roll my first sorc. But in what order of progression (as you progress) do you take those feats?

[nbhs275]

heighten is a waste in my opinion, because anything your looking to use it on is either going to work effectively as its base, or its really going to make it less effiecient.

Web Dc is 12 base +14 CHA +1 napkin = 27. Costs 15 SP. Heightened web is DC 33. And costs 45 SP. Your going to see more success from them having to roll saves against 3 spells then one even if the DC is lower, and you didnt have to spend a feat on it.

And really, as far as lack of choices, your only getting 6 feats(7 for human) to work with, so you dont need a huge pool to draw from. The most important two if you plan on being effective is empower and maximize. And the reason is, if your going to throw out a damage spell thats going to attract attention, your better off being able to completely kill those enemies, instead of just **** them off.

Past that, Spell Pen is more efficent then the MT overall, though you dont necessarily need both feats.

[Merkinsal]

heighten is a waste in my opinion, because anything your looking to use it on is either going to work effectively as its base, or its really going to make it less effiecient.

Web Dc is 12 base +14 CHA +1 napkin = 27. Costs 15 SP. Heightened web is DC 33. And costs 45 SP. Your going to see more success from them having to roll saves against 3 spells then one even if the DC is lower, and you didnt have to spend a feat on it.

And really, as far as lack of choices, your only getting 6 feats(7 for human) to work with, so you dont need a huge pool to draw from. The most important two if you plan on being effective is empower and maximize. And the reason is, if your going to throw out a damage spell thats going to attract attention, your better off being able to completely kill those enemies, instead of just **** them off.

Past that, Spell Pen is more efficent then the MT overall, though you dont necessarily need both feats.

With all due respect, that is absolutely wrong. It is the "gambler's falacy" and one big reason Las Vegas has such nice hotels

Wikipedia Quote:
"The gambler's fallacy, also known as the Monte Carlo fallacy or the fallacy of the maturity of chances, is the false belief that if deviations from expected behaviour are observed in repeated independent trials of some random process then these deviations are likely to be evened out by opposite deviations in the future. For example, if a fair coin is tossed repeatedly and tails comes up a larger number of times than is expected, a gambler may incorrectly believe that this means that heads is more likely in future tosses.[1] Such an event is often referred to as being "due"."

In other words, each time that mob rolls to beat the unheighted web he has just as good a chance to beat it "each roll". His chances do not get worse becasue he has to roll to beat three webs. He has just as good a chance to beat it all three times as the first. Just as for example my chances of flipping tails are not any better if I have rolled heads 10 times in a row or once in a row already.

There is no substitute for good odds. More shots with bad odds are no substitute and in fact does not work.

If you want dc spells to hit, heighten is absolutely neccessary. No question, no debate. Math is math. 2 + 2 = 4.

[Tanka]

*snip*

Put way better than I could have tried to.

Basically, Heighten is necessary. Anyone who argues otherwise doesn't understand probability.

Max/Empower are not both necessary. However, you undoubtedly have the Feats for it. Heighten, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Extend, Max, Empower could be your 6. No Focuses for PK/FoD, but the Focuses were only necessary before SR became so prevalent.

Not to mention rednames (such as in VoD) aren't immune to Web but are immune to instadeath and are also going to have more HP than your piddling CoC can do to thhem.

[Desteria]

heighten is a waste in my opinion, because anything your looking to use it on is either going to work effectively as its base, or its really going to make it less effiecient.

Web Dc is 12 base +14 CHA +1 napkin = 27. Costs 15 SP. Heightened web is DC 33. And costs 45 SP. Your going to see more success from them having to roll saves against 3 spells then one even if the DC is lower, and you didnt have to spend a feat on it.

And really, as far as lack of choices, your only getting 6 feats(7 for human) to work with, so you dont need a huge pool to draw from. The most important two if you plan on being effective is empower and maximize. And the reason is, if your going to throw out a damage spell thats going to attract attention, your better off being able to completely kill those enemies, instead of just **** them off.

Past that, Spell Pen is more efficent then the MT overall, though you dont necessarily need both feats.

This is SOOOO wrong especaly with the example given Sicne WEB grants any one that makes the save a few seconds(2 I belive) of imunity to WEB laying down 3 crappy webs just means he makes the save and walks through the other 2 and beats on you where as one GOOD web would have had a better chance to catch him.
Thsi especaly matter for beareded devil one fo the most important things to WEB since if they start TP boncing a lot it can grind the game to a lagging halt.