Request: Bow Strength as a feat

[Borror0]

How about "take one level of monk or you're gimped".

Taking a level of monk to get the wisdom bonus to AC is a no brainer now as well.

I agree that bow str could be an open feat. I just don't agree with this logic.

You can get AC in other ways. You can't get Str applied to your bows in any other ways.

But yes, Monk AC is an overpowered ability.

[Turial]

You can get AC in other ways. You can't get Str applied to your bows in any other ways.

But yes, Monk AC is an overpowered ability.

No, but you can use repeaters and be better (i.e. faster) then bow based ranged combat without having to worry about str.

That being said I still think bow str should just be applied to composite longbows, green steel bows should be changed to composite bows, and rangers should have the ability to apply bow str to any bow as part of the ranged specialist portion of their combat training (this part isn't as important as the first two).

[redoubt]

You can get AC in other ways. You can't get Str applied to your bows in any other ways.

But yes, Monk AC is an overpowered ability.

I've already argued that bow str should be an open feat. Repeaters and throwers can get of those "ranged" feats while in any class. Why are bows different??? Answer: they don't need to be.

However, at the same time there are things in this game that make certain classes the "best" at something. Monk/tempest rangers have the BEST AC in the game. Put on the same gear and same buffs and show me how this is an incorrect statement. You've convinced me of things before. Here is another opportunity.

This is relevant to the discussion because only monks can get the single biggest and easiest boost to AC in the game. Even if you put zero creation points into wisdom, you can put on a +6 wisdom item and get +2 AC that no other class can get. Starting with 10-14 wisdom is not a big sacrifice and if you through in a wisdom tome +6 to AC is easy to obtain. How can any other class touch this?

Also, the monk AC bonus is more restrictive than the ranger bow str because it requires you to be lawful. You can splash ranger with any alignment. So really, bow str is more accessible than monk AC. This would be the argument not to make bow str an open feat. 8P

That said, I don't have an issue with it being an open feat.

[redoubt]

Well, I did mean just bow users....I guess I just figured it wasn't worth re-iterating after a whole thread of discussing only bows.

Throwing builds are just impractical (due to overall speed), and repeater builds could still benefit from at least 2 levels of ranger.

I'm glad you agree that other classes should be able to get strength bonus to bows, but how about picking apart the opposing posts first.

Sorry about that man. Wasn't try to pick at ya, I was just trying to emphasize two things:

1. Ranged does not equal ranger. (Nor, does it equal bow.)

2. The precedent in the game already allows ranged feats to be taken by any class for 2 of the 3 ranged styles.

Peace!

[Borror0]

However, at the same time there are things in this game that make certain classes the "best" at something. Monk/tempest rangers have the BEST AC in the game.

I know. A 6 ranger/10 monk is capable of reaching 16 AC higher than any S&B build. It's an overpowered ability that needs nerfing too.

It is getting so imbalanced that I think a pure nerf is the best.

[Turial]

I know. A 6 ranger/10 monk is capable of reaching 16 AC higher than any S&B build. It's an overpowered ability that needs nerfing too.

It is getting so imbalanced that I think a pure nerf is the best.

Only allow the wis bonus to ac if you are a pure monk. That will quash the 1 level splashes for the AC while allowing monks to retain a pnp ability.

[Borror0]

Only allow the wis bonus to ac if you are a pure monk. That will quash the 1 level splashes for the AC while allowing monks to retain a pnp ability.

Pure is a tad too radical. How about mostly monk? Or a percentage of purity?

For example, if you're 50% pure or more you get to the full bonus, otherwise you get (monk levels/character level)*2 of the bonus.

So, if a ranger/monk has two levels of monk he currently gets 25% of the bonus and 20% at cap 20? Too much of a nerf? Rounded up?

[EKKM]

I know. A 6 ranger/10 monk is capable of reaching 16 AC higher than any S&B build. It's an overpowered ability that needs nerfing too.

It is getting so imbalanced that I think a pure nerf is the best.

I've always thought the best way to nerf that would be to either limit the AC bonus from WIS to the number of monk levels or require that the monk be centred to achieve it - maybe both.

On Topic - A ranged fighter specialist should be better at bows than a ranger, even a bow focused ranger in PnP. The ranger makes up for the fighter's advantage in that situation as they are more versitile than the fighter via spells and other abilities. Currently, in DDO, that is not true unless the fighter splashes one level of ranger. The game does not break, and makes more sense, if bow strength is a general feat.

[Turial]

Pure is a tad too radical. How about mostly monk? Or a percentage of purity?

For example, if you're 50% pure or more you get to the full bonus, otherwise you get (monk levels/character level)*2 of the bonus.

So, if a ranger/monk has two levels of monk he currently gets 25% of the bonus and 20% at cap 20? Too much of a nerf? Rounded up?

Similar to how the sp items give an extra % to players with some sorc levels? I could go for that. Lots of people won't like it though.

[Borror0]

I've always thought the best way to nerf that would be to either limit the AC bonus from WIS to the number of monk levels or require that the monk be centred to achieve it - maybe both.*

That could be another way to do it.

The centered-only bonus would help, but not as much. And... may not be as popular.

Similar to how the sp items give an extra % to players with some sorc levels?

Yep, a similar mechanic.

Lots of people won't like it though.

Obviously.

[EKKM]

That could be another way to do it.

The centered-only bonus would help, but not as much. And... may not be as popular.

I'm not sure "popular" is the right word when discussing nerfs, maybe "less likely to cause a revolution".

Rethinking the WIS bonus to AC not exceedung monk level idea, that would seriously hurt low level monks. Not sure how to deal with that other than using the percentage of total levels idea you discussed earlier or having the limit only apply to multiclass monks.

[rimble]

Rethinking the WIS bonus to AC not exceedung monk level idea, that would seriously hurt low level monks. Not sure how to deal with that other than using the percentage of total levels idea you discussed earlier or having the limit apply multiclass monks.

Yeah, just tier it. Single-Classed Monks get full Wis bonus to AC. If you have any non-Monk levels, your Wis bonus to AC is limited by your Monk level.

Do the same thing for Paladin Divine Grace.

Maybe don't even scale them...just chop them in half. Pure classes get full Wis/Cha, once you multi-class you get half Wis/Cha.

Maybe as long as your class levels are 2x more than your non-class levels you get full bonus. 6 Ranger/10 Monk wouldn't get full bonus (6 x 2 > 10), but at 20th you could still get it with 6 Ranger/14 Monk (6 x 2 < 14). Seems okay to me that being MOSTLY Monk/Paladin should get you full bonus, though there are still alot of Armor/TWF things to continue addressing...

On-Topic: Get rid of Bow Strength, it was stupid to begin with. If it's easier to just give it to everyone instead, just do that.

[HumanJHawkins]

That could be another way to do it. The centered-only bonus would help, but not as much. And... may not be as popular.<CUT>

Here's the problem with nerfing:

I have an AC build. I have one more level to take. If I evaluate it and see that taking one level of monk is the best way to improve the goal of that character, then I probably will.

If Turbine then nerfed it to uselessness without giving me some way to undo my choice of a monk level, I will be really ****ed. I'm not one to throw around the "I'll quit the game" thing lightly, but it really might push me over the edge.

Also, I don't think it is overpowered. There are plenty of things balancing out the AC.
1) You have to put points into Wisdom.
2) You have to wear a Wisdom item. This takes space that could be used for something else.

So in order to get that AC bonus, you have to take a STR or CON hit. And moreso, you have to max out DEX to make it really useful, resulting in a really big STR and CON hit. On top of that, you have to give up protection or resist, etc. to put on the Wis item.

In any event, buffing quests and monsters is a far better way to correct this than nerfing something. Not all of us can reroll and be capped in 2 weeks. Some people have only a few characters and have spent a year on each of them. If you nerfed one of those, it would be horrible for the player affected.

[Blazer]

In any event, buffing quests and monsters is a far better way to correct this than nerfing something.

Really? Isn't that sort of the problem that got us to where we are in the first place? If you buff the quests and monsters with the expectation that people have built their character to a certain specification (in this case, splash a monk level to gain a significant bonus to AC), then it becomes nearly required to build your character in that fashion. And those who haven't built in that manner, suffer.

[Tanka]

Really? Isn't that sort of the problem that got us to where we are in the first place? If you buff the quests and monsters with the expectation that people have built their character to a certain specification (in this case, splash a monk level to gain a significant bonus to AC), then it becomes nearly required to build your character in that fashion. And those who haven't built in that manner, suffer.

***WARNING, THE TEXT BELOW IS MEANT IN JEST***

How about give monsters a +to-hit vs Monks?

***WARNING, THE TEXT ABOVE IS MEANT IN JEST***

[Turial]

In any event, buffing quests and monsters is a far better way to correct this than nerfing something. Not all of us can reroll and be capped in 2 weeks. Some people have only a few characters and have spent a year on each of them. If you nerfed one of those, it would be horrible for the player affected.

Monsters and quests are already buffed expecting the highest possible AC in the game. Elite orthons in the shroud on normal hit a 57 ac on a roll of 7 or better. This means that only 70 AC provides 95% protection from attacks. I would wager that well equiped monks that care about AC are in the 60-70 range or higher.

[Turial]

***WARNING, THE TEXT BELOW IS MEANT IN JEST***

How about give monsters a +to-hit vs Monks?

***WARNING, THE TEXT ABOVE IS MEANT IN JEST***

LOL... kinda how incorporeal undead got that boost vs corporeal objects.

[Kaboth]

Asking for this out of pure greed.

PnP thinking: "Bow Strength" doesn't exist, it's a property of the "mighty composite" bows that allows strength bonus to ranged attacks. In other words, not limited to a specific class.

DDO thinking: Rangers are mostly a stack of predetermined bonus feats and a small unique spell list. Diehard is available as a seperate feat. Very little they get is not available elsewhere, so why should bow strength be a uniqueness?

Pure greed: Want to build a pure fighter, deeply range specced (elf, +4 to hit, +6 damage with any bow, at any time), to play with the (sorta leaked) Kensai PrE.

Alternately, coding in the mighty composite ability, much like a special material (doesn't add to enhancement +, as it's a physical property and not a magical one), would work, just not as nicely for non rangers (capped at +5 Str bonus to damage).

Its Easy... splash two levels of Ranger and you get Bow str with losing very little to being a fighter... I have an Elven Archer... He is currently 11 Fighter/ 2 Ranger/ 2 Rogue and he does very good ranged wise, in fact over all I think his DPS ranged is equivelant if not better than a rangers ranged combat. I took two levels of Rogue to open locks and to recieve Evasion. How ever he doesnt have the ranger cool spells and such, but he does have lots other perks. If you wondering how my archer does great damage even against a rangers favored enemy, it is because fighters have the weapon specialization line which increases damage and with the fighter enhancer of bonus to crit and seeker bonuses, etc. When my archer rolls a twenty he almost always crits, with exception to fortification or being immune to crits. If I recall, his total bonus to confirm crits was sitting at like a +60. If you like, send me a PM on here and when I get back to my archer and power and DSL steady I can mention some things to you. Archers have lots of bias against them unless you are doing DQ or some other quest were they come in handy. Granted in a group melee DPS is better for the most part unless you are multi-shoting...

[redoubt]

Here's the problem with nerfing:

I have an AC build. I have one more level to take. If I evaluate it and see that taking one level of monk is the best way to improve the goal of that character, then I probably will.

If Turbine then nerfed it to uselessness without giving me some way to undo my choice of a monk level, I will be really ****ed. I'm not one to throw around the "I'll quit the game" thing lightly, but it really might push me over the edge.

Also, I don't think it is overpowered. There are plenty of things balancing out the AC.
1) You have to put points into Wisdom.

As I stated at the top of page 6, getting at starting wisdom of 10-14 requires very little. Most splashes are ranger anyway so wisdom is a class stat.

2) You have to wear a Wisdom item. This takes space that could be used for something else.

Next, I have +6 wisdom on my HP item from the shroud. How is finding space for this hard?

So in order to get that AC bonus, you have to take a STR or CON hit. And moreso, you have to max out DEX to make it really useful
NO, its extra AC regardless of what your other AC already is.,
resulting in a really big STR and CON hit.
Droping one build stat of str and one of con gets you to 14 starting wisdom. Add +6 item and +2 tome to get 22 wisdom for +6 to AC. The difficulty you are suggesting is just not there. My ranger has 26 str, 35 dex and 20 wisdom. Con is a little low but I still have 300hp and if you push up to 70ish AC, 300hp is plenty.
On top of that, you have to give up protection or resist, etc. to put on the Wis item.
Nope, I wear all of those at once. You can have armor, chaos guards, dex, con, str, wis items, GFL item, menos legion, protection and resistance all on at the same time.
In any event, buffing quests and monsters is a far better way to correct this than nerfing something. Not all of us can reroll and be capped in 2 weeks. Some people have only a few characters and have spent a year on each of them. If you nerfed one of those, it would be horrible for the player affected.

Buffing monsters is the worst way to fix this. The problem is that the monsters get buffed to balance out the insane 70AC and anyone with a once great 55AC is dead meat!

Seriously... was this a joke?

[Borror0]

If Turbine then nerfed it to uselessness without giving me some way to undo my choice of a monk level, I will be really ****ed.

Really? Poor you.

Let's put it this way: either Turbine just nerfed every S&B character in the whole game into uselessness and will have to face other serious consequences (and imbalance the whole in some highly undesirable ways) related to implementing monk AC bonus as it was implemented, or they correct their mistake by nerfing monk AC bonus.

Also, I don't think it is overpowered. There are plenty of things balancing out the AC.
1) You have to put points into Wisdom.
2) You have to wear a Wisdom item. This takes space that could be used for something else.

So, you don't have trouble with super high DPS characters with crazy AC?

And moreso, you have to max out DEX to make it really useful, resulting in a really big STR and CON hit.

I made a 16 Str, 16 Con, 14 Dex Ranger with 70 AC against their favored enemy (67 if not).

Say what?

On top of that, you have to give up protection or resist, etc. to put on the Wis item.

On a ranger?

In any event, buffing quests and monsters is a far better way to correct this than nerfing something.

This is, by far, that silliest comment I heard on the issue so far.

• It's inflating the number that got there in the first place.
• It won't solve the S&B case.
• It won't make those build any more balanced.
• (Feel free to add anymore to the list if I forgot anything.)

And no, don't tell me you have to buff everyone. That's not a good idea.

Nerfing is a good idea in many cases. Stop being afraid of it.