Request: Bow Strength as a feat

[Depravity]

Asking for this out of pure greed.

PnP thinking: "Bow Strength" doesn't exist, it's a property of the "mighty composite" bows that allows strength bonus to ranged attacks. In other words, not limited to a specific class.

DDO thinking: Rangers are mostly a stack of predetermined bonus feats and a small unique spell list. Diehard is available as a seperate feat. Very little they get is not available elsewhere, so why should bow strength be a uniqueness?

Pure greed: Want to build a pure fighter, deeply range specced (elf, +4 to hit, +6 damage with any bow, at any time), to play with the (sorta leaked) Kensai PrE.

Alternately, coding in the mighty composite ability, much like a special material (doesn't add to enhancement +, as it's a physical property and not a magical one), would work, just not as nicely for non rangers (capped at +5 Str bonus to damage).

[HumanJHawkins]

It'll never happen... All the people who built ranged fighters and then rerolled them as rangers because bow strength is so important, would freak.

Plus, it's a core part of the game balance. It would be like making Evasion an available feat. Suddenly Rogues and Tempest melee rangers would be relatively useless compared to a Barbarian 16 with evasion.

It would take all kinds of rebalancing to fix that, so will never happen.

[Gennerik]

Except for the fact that any class should be able to just get a Composite Long-/Short-bow and be able to add their Strength modifier (up to +5), I can't see how it it would critically throw off the balance of the game, especially as a feat.

Also, while not in DDO, there is a Ring of Evasion that allows its wearer to have Evasion. It' only costs 25000gp, too, so it's really not that much compared to an ability that only a select few classes get.

[Aesop]

I think I'd just make it part of an exisisting Feat like Point Blank Shot and leave rangers with the Bow Strength ability thus never needing to take Point Blank Shot


it would do what ya needed anyway

Aesop

[Yabba]

While you're at it, lets have Lay on Hands as a feat too.

[Aesop]

While you're at it, lets have Lay on Hands as a feat too.

little different


one is a non PnP ability given at the beginning of the DDO cycle to help give Rangers an advantage when they were seen a s a weak link

the other is a Core ability of a class...


so to reiterate

1 a feature that should never have been inherant to a class

2 a feature that is inherant to a class


Aesop

[icculus]

Every composite bow should simply receive the 'Bow Strength' feat for free - that would fix them and help compensate for their slower attack rate.

I hate not linking, but some Dev did mention that he would be looking at Comp Bows during his next Ranged pass...

[GlassCannon]

Let's make Magical Training a feat too, so Fighter Pures can start casting spells. It's not like they HAVE to train with a Wizard to level up... the magic they use can be self-study.

Additionally, why not make Favored Enemies available to other classes as well, just not nearly so often or powerful as Rangers? I know a Fighter 10 would like to specialize in killing a certain type of critter, just like a Ranger does.

While we're talking about breaking the rules and throwing out the baby with the bathwater, let's give Rogues the Wall Climbing ability, then make the ability a feat that everyone can have, so our Cleric pures can crawl around on the ceiling....

[Borror0]

Question: How do you handle those griping about the fact that they splashed 1 ranger for Bow Strength?

[seldarin]

little different


one is a non PnP ability given at the beginning of the DDO cycle to help give Rangers an advantage when they were seen a s a weak link

the other is a Core ability of a class...


so to reiterate

1 a feature that should never have been inherant to a class

2 a feature that is inherant to a class


Aesop

While you are talking about non PnP abilities, lets scrap enhancements altogether too. Balance the playing field totally, basically dependant on gear and stats, should make everyone happy that way. I mean after all enhancements were only added to give a bit more of something to classes. You know, throw out tempest rangers etc, just take it back to basic DnD, that should work, i mean as long as we are talking about non PnP stuff and core abilities

But why just stop at the bow str, i mean as yabba said, lets add in LOH for everyone, why should pallies be only one to call on their gods, everyone has a god dont they?

Heres a novel concept, lets make all feats, abilities and skills available to all classes, that way we can scrap rogues, wizzies, clerics, rangers, bards, and just about every other class and just have 1 class. And from that 1 class you can pick whatever feat you want, whatever ability you want, even take spells if you want, should make it much more interesting than the boring 10 classes we have at the moment

[Coldin]

Sigh. There must be some secret coalition against the improvement of ranged combat out there.

Bow Strength is not a class specific feat at all. There's no reason that Rangers (or ranger splashes) should be the only ones capable of adding Str to damage. And no, people who splashed ranger whining does not constitute a valid reason.

[Arianrhod]

While adding the "mighty" property to composite bows would make them more in line with P&P, there do seem to be a couple of problems with it - one is that it would be a pretty significant shift in "the way things are done" to put into the game 2+ years down the road. Another is that allowing "mighty" bows but with the restriction of "only up to +5 str bonus" might be awkward (aka, bug-ridden) to code. Risk vs. benefit....probably not worth it, imo.

[icculus]

While adding the "mighty" property to composite bows would make them more in line with P&P, there do seem to be a couple of problems with it - one is that it would be a pretty significant shift in "the way things are done" to put into the game 2+ years down the road. Another is that allowing "mighty" bows but with the restriction of "only up to +5 str bonus" might be awkward (aka, bug-ridden) to code. Risk vs. benefit....probably not worth it, imo.

Given the Evasion Nerf and other changes, length of game play is clearly NOT a Turbine reason to avoid changing something.

Since Rangers currently benefit from more than +5 Mighty, granting Composite Bows the 'Bow Strength' Feat seems an easy way to achieve PnP like benefits. Rangers would still be able to use their ability on regular bows allowing them to use any bow and take advantage of the faster RoF of the non-Composite bows.

[Grimdiegn]

Sigh. There must be some secret coalition against the improvement of ranged combat out there.

Bow Strength is not a class specific feat at all. There's no reason that Rangers (or ranger splashes) should be the only ones capable of adding Str to damage. And no, people who splashed ranger whining does not constitute a valid reason.

As one of the people that did splash one level of ranger on a ranged fighter I would have to agree. It should not be Ranger only IMO.

[Karters]

you want the feat just splash 1 lvl of ranger, u get 1 favored enemy and the str bonus, what does 16 ftr give you? nothing

[Alavatar]

you want the feat just splash 1 lvl of ranger, u get 1 favored enemy and the str bonus, what does 16 ftr give you? nothing

Another feat.

[Turial]

Sigh. There must be some secret coalition against the improvement of ranged combat out there.

Bow Strength is not a class specific feat at all. There's no reason that Rangers (or ranger splashes) should be the only ones capable of adding Str to damage. And no, people who splashed ranger whining does not constitute a valid reason.

There maybe some secret organization against ranged combat.

On the bright side we have Codog...now we just need to steal Eladrins foon of greater codog bane so that codog can get fixes in the works.

[Shagn]

Multiclassing one level is a conscious choice to gain a feat. Bow strength should be an available feat for any class (or finally do something about all those composite bows out there). It's silly another class needs to take a level of ranger just to get bow strength. I would rather have it match like how it is in PnP though. Can other classes take the bow strength feat?

This could be compared to a paladin taking one level of fighter to get the tower shield feat for free. Not only that, but a free fighter feat also, and intimidate as a class skill. Oh and the haste boost.

[sarcasm]Since fighters are the only class to get tower shields for free, then perhaps we should remove all other classes from being able to get tower shields... or even heavier armor feats...[/sarcasm]

[Allistair]

you want the feat just splash 1 lvl of ranger, u get 1 favored enemy and the str bonus, what does 16 ftr give you? nothing

Actually that splash one level of Ranger also gives the fighter the ability to use CSW wands as well.
Nice little bonus at lower levels.
Rangers also get the same BAB progression as a fighter, so no loss there.
You'll pick up extra skill points to spend as well.
You lose 2 HP though (D8 vs. D10)

Personally, I built a Fighter/Ranger/Rogue - 10/2/4 currently
The levels of Ranger were effective for keeping the skills I needed maxed without giving up my
BAB bonus. The one level of Ranger early on helped with being truly self sufficient and able to help others up.
Right now I am an Elf, Dual weilding Longswords, with Greater Two Weapon fighting.
I have 434 HP and can hold my own in melee, get 98% of the traps in the game (Still can't get that one in Cabal )
My DD is at +52. I can also UMD Res scrolls to aid in getting a fallen Cleric back up.

Guess I just want to say even without Bow strength, splashing 1 or 2 levels of Ranger does have it's benefits, depending
on what you want to do with your build.

[Alavatar]

Multiclassing one level is a conscious choice to gain a feat. Bow strength should be an available feat for any class (or finally do something about all those composite bows out there). It's silly another class needs to take a level of ranger just to get bow strength. I would rather have it match like how it is in PnP though. Can other classes take the bow strength feat?

There is no Bow Strength feat in PnP. Composite bows can be made to take advantage of a High Strength, i.e. Composite (+3) Longbow allowed you to use up to +3 strength modifier to damage, but it requires a 16 strengh to use without penalty.

This could be compared to a paladin taking one level of fighter to get the tower shield feat for free. Not only that, but a free fighter feat also, and intimidate as a class skill. Oh and the haste boost.

Sort of, but not really. In PnP, paladins do not get either Tower Shield proficiency or Intimidate as a class skill. So, paladins are per PnP design. What Turbine needs to do is figure out a dual functionality for Diplomacy so that a paladin can use that to gain aggro. No need to make Intimidate a paladin class skill.