Low Level Raid Idea

[Zuldar]

Low Level Raid Idea (levels 4-6)

Rescue Lord Goodblade

After making one too many shady deals, Lord Goodblade has been kidnapped by his would be mark. One of the coin lords requests that the heroes rescure Lord Goodblade, if only because of his "assistance" with would be adventurers.

The heroes must venture to Alt'Mar, a well defended ogre lair to rescue the beleaguered lord.

Pre-quest:

The quest consists of a crudely built castle, similar to splinterskull in tangleroot. It is manned mostly by kobolds with some ogres bossing the smaller creatures around. The kobolds have installed many traps designed to seperate the party, such as pits, gust traps, and closing doors. Anyone that gets caught in such a trap or gets locked out by a door will have to take a more dangerous path to catch up filled with other traps such as spikes or whirling blades. The party must make their way through the castle to get to prison where Lord Goodblade is being held.

Raid:

The party enters to see Lord Goodblade being led to a set of gallows. The party will have twenty minutes to rescue him before they fail. Lord Goodblade is being led by Grenthar the ogre mage who was cheated by Goodblade. When the party approaches Grenthar will send his ogre followers towards the party while staying back and firing spells off to hamper the group. Either once the party defeats the ogres or approaches Grenthar the ogre mage will turn completely invisible, though still attackable, while Lord Goodblade will shout "I swear I had no idea those explosive barrels where filled with flour" At this time the party will be able to activate sacks on the ground which will activate a "glitterdust" effect which will make Grenthar visible for a short time. Once the party has defeated Grenthar and rescue Lord Goodblade he'll exclaim "Friend, I suppose we're even now for since I helped you attain that legendary sword and all."

At this time a warded chest and one regular chest will appear.




Raid Loot List:

Mace of Terror- +2 Heavy Mace with 3 charges of fear per rest ml 6

Breastplate of Command- +2 breastplate of command with aura similar to paladins aura of courage (+saves vs fear) ml 6

Ring of Force Shield- ring that provides +2 shield bonus to ac ml 5

Minor Ring of Spell Storing- exclusive ring with one charge per shrine that restores 15 sp ml 5

Staff of Healing-exclusive staff with 50 charges can cast the following at caster level 8, does not recharge ml 6
Lesser restoration (1 charge per use)
Cure Serious wounds (1 charge per use)
Remove blindness (2 charges per use)
Remove disease (3 charges per use)

Amulet of Natural Armor- Amulet that provides a +1 natural armor bonus to ac ml 5

Chime of Opening- clicky with 10 charges of knock caster level 11

Periapt of Wound Closure-Necklace that grants the diehard feat ml 5


So what do you think?

[hydra_ex]

What use is raid loot that is way overpowered in comparison to lvl range? Youll just get lvl 16s farming it for the very good raid loot. And people are rarely at low lvls long enough to run a low lvl raid, by the time their lvl 8, they can run tempests.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Why do we need more low level content? There's plenty to get you through to the high (or at least medium-high) levels.

[Geonis]

Love the quest idea. Very well thought out.

The only problem I have is a few of the raid loot items.

Raid Loot List:

Mace of Terror- +2 Heavy Mace with 3 charges of fear per rest ml 6

Completely appropriate, maybe 2 charges, 3 seems a little potent for the level, but it is Raid loot, so not excessive.

Breastplate of Command- +2 breastplate of command with aura similar to paladins aura of courage (+saves vs fear) ml 6

I like this item, powerful, but not overly so. Maybe make it Mithral?

Ring of Force Shield- ring that provides +2 shield bonus to ac ml 5

Again a good item, powerful, almost overly so, as there are no other items that give a Shield bonus. Tough call on whether it is too much or not.

Minor Ring of Spell Storing- exclusive ring with one charge per shrine that restores 15 sp ml 5

Another item that is really on the edge of being too powerful. Being exclusive helps, I would make it exclusive to an actual Ring of Spell Storing as well. Only one or the other at a time.

Staff of Healing-exclusive staff with 50 charges can cast the following at caster level 8, does not recharge ml 6
Lesser restoration (1 charge per use)
Cure Serious wounds (1 charge per use)
Remove blindness (2 charges per use)
Remove disease (3 charges per use)

Here is where you get a little over the line. The no recharge, would mean characters rolling through this raid every 3 days, but being as that is not a real change from other raids, and the uses are all covered by wands for those with cash, you might even drop the charges to 1 each for all the spells. Now that I think about it, it is a nice item, but not overly so.

Amulet of Natural Armor- Amulet that provides a +1 natural armor bonus to ac ml 5

Decent item, but don't all founders get one of these?

Chime of Opening- clicky with 10 charges of knock caster level 11

Here is where you definitely went over the edge. 10 charges?! at CL 11?! Drop the charges to 3 and the CL to 5 or 7, and I think this would be more appropriate, go 3 charges at CL7 and make it exclusive.

Periapt of Wound Closure-Necklace that grants the diehard feat ml 5

Interesting, but opens up a can of worms with the item giving a feat (I know the Minos helm gives Toughness, but I look at it more as a different kind of False Life more than a feat). Next players would be clamoring for Rings of Evasion and such. Bad mojo there. Just call it the same and it automatically stabilizes a character (same as Diehard, without the word Diehard in there).

[Zuldar]

What use is raid loot that is way overpowered in comparison to lvl range? Youll just get lvl 16s farming it for the very good raid loot. And people are rarely at low lvls long enough to run a low lvl raid, by the time their lvl 8, they can run tempests.

I hardly think the list I provided is so good that lvl 16 characters would be farming it to acquire. Unless you're saying that a +2 mace with 3 charges of fear is overpowered. The point of such a raid is to get new players who may not level to 8 in a week comfortable with the raiding experience while providing some gear that will be useful in that level range while becoming naturally obsolete in the course of leveling. With the upcoming mod being designed with new players in mind this could be even more of an issue.

[Geonis]

People, not everyone levels to 16 in a week and only runs raids from then on out.

I myself have been here since launch and have characters across all level ranges.

I have deleted multiple characters who were capped.

If you are only playing level 16 and running raids all day, well, I feel sorry for you, because that must be boring.

Try enjoying the game, rather than racing to level 16 and the Shroud/VoD/Hound.

[Zuldar]

Love the quest idea. Very well thought out.

The only problem I have is a few of the raid loot items.






Completely appropriate, maybe 2 charges, 3 seems a little potent for the level, but it is Raid loot, so not excessive.





I like this item, powerful, but not overly so. Maybe make it Mithral?





Again a good item, powerful, almost overly so, as there are no other items that give a Shield bonus. Tough call on whether it is too much or not.





Another item that is really on the edge of being too powerful. Being exclusive helps, I would make it exclusive to an actual Ring of Spell Storing as well. Only one or the other at a time.





Here is where you get a little over the line. The no recharge, would mean characters rolling through this raid every 3 days, but being as that is not a real change from other raids, and the uses are all covered by wands for those with cash, you might even drop the charges to 1 each for all the spells. Now that I think about it, it is a nice item, but not overly so.





Decent item, but don't all founders get one of these?





Here is where you definitely went over the edge. 10 charges?! at CL 11?! Drop the charges to 3 and the CL to 5 or 7, and I think this would be more appropriate, go 3 charges at CL7 and make it exclusive.





Interesting, but opens up a can of worms with the item giving a feat (I know the Minos helm gives Toughness, but I look at it more as a different kind of False Life more than a feat). Next players would be clamoring for Rings of Evasion and such. Bad mojo there. Just call it the same and it automatically stabilizes a character (same as Diehard, without the word Diehard in there).

All of the items have been taken straight out of the DMG, though they could be changed if needed I suppose. As for the last two items, 10 charges of knock even at caster level 11 will be limited in what they can open mainly due to the low casting stat it would have. It would be a knock roll with +14 to open the lock, decent but limited in what it can achieve. The periapt of would closure actually does do what you're asking for, I just used the give word die hard idea to make it easier to understand. If they could get the idea across without using die hard it would be even better. I should also mention that none of the items, save the mace of terror, recharge so they will burn out quickly enough.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

People, not everyone levels to 16 in a week and only runs raids from then on out.

I myself have been here since launch and have characters across all level ranges.

I have deleted multiple characters who were capped.

I'm in the exact same boat. And I took two months to get my last character to cap. My point is, we already have content for those levels--whether you want to take it slow or go right through it. The only place where anyone complains about lack of content is the high end. I simply don't see the reason to add an essentially superfluous raid.

[Zuldar]

I'm in the exact same boat. And I took two months to get my last character to cap. My point is, we already have content for those levels--whether you want to take it slow or go right through it. The only place where anyone complains about lack of content is the high end. I simply don't see the reason to add an essentially superfluous raid.

There will never be enough content for the end game, it just can't be created fast enough. One thing is certain though, people will always be rolling new characters, so why not make the experience fun with some new content periodically such as a raid (something low levels don't have as of yet). Being forced to run the same quests forty or fifty times can be at best described as monotonous.

[Silverpoint]

These Items if allowed would allow me to become a god. Oh ya! I would just storm that raid with my lvl 16 wiz with 304 hps and 1565sp just to get an extra 15sps, are you serious. You musta fell from a high area with no FF item on. I would also go there just to grab one of those kill all fear maces, because you know maces are all powerful specially fear with 3 charges. It would so be worth it for end game. As for all of you that think that low lvl raids wouldn't be fun how many times have you ran the same quest over and over to get to lvl 16. It makes me not want to make another toon again ever, it makes me want to go swimming under the leaky dinghy with no Underwater action item. I would enjoy some new low lvl content. It takes the edge of having to build a new toon. I would never get bored. I'm in no rush to get to lvl 16 that is when it gets boring running Reaver 127 times just doesn't seem like the most fun I could have.

[Angelus_dead]

So what do you think?

Any raid below the level cap is a bad idea. The lower the level, the worse it is.

You will notice that DDO has never had a raid added below the level cap. There's a reason for this.

In fact, DDO's existing raids have gotten worse and worse as the level cap advanced further and further beyond them. By their nature of involving large groups, 3-day lockout timers, puzzle-solving, and superior loot unavailable elsewhere, raids are inherently content for maxxed-out characters.

PS. A low level raid could work if it were based on some serious changes to the underlying DDO software:
1. Characters above +1 level over the quest are not allowed to go in.
2. Players are given a system to temporarily reduce the level of their characters.

[Zuldar]

Any raid below the level cap is a bad idea. The lower the level, the worse it is.

You will notice that DDO has never had a raid added below the level cap. There's a reason for this.

In fact, DDO's existing raids have gotten worse and worse as the level cap advanced further and further beyond them. By their nature of involving large groups, 3-day lockout timers, puzzle-solving, and superior loot unavailable elsewhere, raids are inherently content for maxxed-out characters.

PS. A low level raid could work if it were based on some serious changes to the underlying DDO software:
1. Characters above +1 level over the quest are not allowed to go in.
2. Players are given a system to temporarily reduce the level of their characters.

Neither of those options are necessary. By offering raid loot that is good for the level it is to be run at but obsolete a few levels later, capped characters won't need to farm it. Stylizing the quest in a manner similar to Tempest's Spine, meaning no timer, would work perfectly. How often do you see capped characters farming Tempest's Spine for named loot?

In addition, I wasn't aware that you had to be level 16 to solve a puzzle or form a raid party. I assumed that anyone of any level is capable of performing that action. You don't need to be capped to enjoy the game.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Any raid below the level cap is a bad idea. The lower the level, the worse it is.In your opinion, its been asked for by many people in the past...especially non power/meta gamers

You will notice that DDO has never had a raid added below the level cap. There's a reason for this.Short sighted of them, and the reason a silly prejudice in favor of those who power level to cap
In fact, DDO's existing raids have gotten worse and worse as the level cap advanced further and further beyond them. By their nature of involving large groups, 3-day lockout timers, puzzle-solving, and superior loot unavailable elsewhere, raids are inherently content for maxxed-out characters.TS is the perfect model for raids at lower level, a few named items in the end chest is really all that needs to be added

PS. A low level raid could work if it were based on some serious changes to the underlying DDO software:
1. Characters above +1 level over the quest are not allowed to go in.No reason for this
2. Players are given a system to temporarily reduce the level of their characters.A mentor system game wide could be interesting

[Angelus_dead]

By offering raid loot that is good for the level it is to be run at but obsolete a few levels later, capped characters won't need to farm it.

Inadequate. It's insufficient to say that "capped" characters won't farm the quest; as long as characters of noticeably higher-level than the quest was designed to challenge are going there for loot, that's bad. They're not getting the play experience that was intended, so the quest isn't fulfilling it's objective in the game design.

Look, in software design and game design we have this sanity-check concept called "constructing a user narrative". It means telling a sequential story of how a player would interact with these features and what the result would be. User-narrative analysis would have helped DDO avoid numerous flaws, such as the recent Icy Rainments fiasco. Can you present a user-narrative for how a low-level raid would contribute to DDO gameplay at all?

How often do you see capped characters farming Tempest's Spine for named loot?

Whenever they want some of the named loot, and can't simply ask someone to mail it over. It's rare for a character to desire that loot, but it occasionally happens (like the fullplate of DR 5). Tempest loot doesn't bind and is available in the general economy- if I wanted some, I could offer up a shroud ingredient and the trade would be accomplished faster than I could start TS myself.

In addition, I wasn't aware that you had to be level 16 to solve a puzzle or form a raid party. I assumed that anyone of any level is capable of performing that action.

Obviously, that was my point. If a quest contains challenges that are independent of character level, then those sections play similarly regardless of if your character is low or high level. That means the quest is challenging to high-level characters, yet they won't be rewarded for completing it, which is unfair and inefficient use of production resources.

[Angelus_dead]

Your quoting style is noxious.

In your opinion, its been asked for by many people in the past...especially non power/meta gamers

It's quite typical for customers to ask for things they don't really want, because they don't fully understand the implications of what they're saying. That is especially true in regards to game design, which necessarily has an quasi-antagonist relationship between the players and the administrators. (For the simplest example of that, consider the addition of buttons on the character sheet labelled "+1000 XP" and "+1000 gp")

Short sighted of them, and the reason a silly prejudice in favor of those who power level to cap

No, it's not short sighted- it's the inescapable result of being minimally observant. In fact, the DDO devs did make some low-level raids before the game was released, and they aborted them because they saw they don't work. If you build a low-level raid and give it to 12-20 playtesters, you'll quickly see that it simply cannot fulfill a useful gameplay function. The result will be one of

1. Raid is completely ignored by all players except for capped-favor or occasional tourism ("Hey, let's see what this thing is like! ... Ok, now let's never come here again")
2. Raid is ignored by level-appropriate characters, but overlevelled characters go there for certain powerful loots.
3. Raid is played by level-appropriate characters who are farming it for XP, causing them to ignore the existing quests of their own level, as they offer less XP/min.

Basic fact:
D&D is based around 3-4 roles: healer, tank, blaster, CC. (In 4e they're called Leader/Defender/Striker/Controller). The game mechanic is to have a group of approximately one player per role, with possibly +/- 50% population. DDO is based on those rules and inherited the gameplay results. D&D is a game for groups of about 4. The bigger your groups get, the less the game rules make sense.

Raids are hardly ever a good idea for D&D games.

TS is the perfect model for raids at lower level, a few named items in the end chest is really all that needs to be added

TS has many bad aspects, and should not be the model for anything. It can function as a cautionary example.

[Zuldar]

Inadequate. It's insufficient to say that "capped" characters won't farm the quest; as long as characters of noticeably higher-level than the quest was designed to challenge are going there for loot, that's bad. They're not getting the play experience that was intended, so the quest isn't fulfilling it's objective in the game design.

By that token, what use do any low level quests have since capped characters can run them. How about everyone just makes a characters already capped. That's the only way to prevent people form not getting the experience that was intended.

Look, in software design and game design we have this sanity-check concept called "constructing a user narrative". It means telling a sequential story of how a player would interact with these features and what the result would be. User-narrative analysis would have helped DDO avoid numerous flaws, such as the recent Icy Rainments fiasco. Can you present a user-narrative for how a low-level raid would contribute to DDO gameplay at all?

How would a quest not be good for gameplay, less you're saying that quests are a detriment to this game. It's really quite simple, low level people will be able to experience a raid at a more stable level and be able to actually partake of said quest. With most of the high end raids if you don't already know what to do you're usually going to be sitting back watching other people have fun. A low level raid will allow new players the experience without all the difficulties high levels offer.

Whenever they want some of the named loot, and can't simply ask someone to mail it over. It's rare for a character to desire that loot, but it occasionally happens (like the fullplate of DR 5). Tempest loot doesn't bind and is available in the general economy- if I wanted some, I could offer up a shroud ingredient and the trade would be accomplished faster than I could start TS myself.

So make it bind, I don't see what's so hard about that.

Obviously, that was my point. If a quest contains challenges that are independent of character level, then those sections play similarly regardless of if your character is low or high level. That means the quest is challenging to high-level characters, yet they won't be rewarded for completing it, which is unfair and inefficient use of production resources.

So because the quest doesn't provide +5 wounding paralyzing rapiers of puncturing it's a inefficient use of production resources? I'd rather have a fun immersive game then all the epic loot in the world, and that is just as valid a use of resources as anything else.

[Angelus_dead]

By that token, what use do any low level quests have since capped characters can run them.

That's a non sequitur.

How would a quest not be good for gameplay, less you're saying that quests are a detriment to this game.

For the easiest examples of how a quest could be bad for gameplay:
1. A one-room dungeon with a button on the wall labelled "I win". Pressing it ends the quest, gives me 1,000,000 XP, and spawns 3 L16 chests.
2. A one-room dungeon with a kobold called "U Loose". He has 1,000,000 hp, and each of his attacks does 10 points of perma damage to an equipped item.
3. A regular-looking dungeon that's about the same as any other dungeon, but which cost $1,000,000 dollars to produce.

It's really quite simple, low level people will be able to experience a raid at a more stable level and be able to actually partake of said quest.

Bzzt. The higher levels are more stable than low-levels. By definition, high levels have a level cap in place which prevents them from advancing further, meaning they change less, meaning they are more stable. As time goes by, capped characters approach the same level of capability. Low-level characters, on the other hand, are constantly changing and can have a huge variability in their abilities, and they won't even stay at the same power for long.

With most of the high end raids if you don't already know what to do you're usually going to be sitting back watching other people have fun. A low level raid will allow new players the experience without all the difficulties high levels offer.

No, nothing about being low-level would prevent that.

So because the quest doesn't provide +5 wounding paralyzing rapiers of puncturing it's a inefficient use of production resources? I'd rather have a fun immersive game then all the epic loot in the world, and that is just as valid a use of resources as anything else.

Have you tried the underpants gnome thing?

Step 1: Make low-level raid
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Fun

Can you fill-in the blank on how a low-level raid would accomplish creating fun?

[Vorn]

I seem to remember from early, early on, maybe beta, maybe before, that Irestone Inlet was a raid. It was kind of fun once, but not that challenging as we quickly split up into three teams of four folks each and zerged the heck out of it (Kind of like how we search for chests in the subterraine).

Personally, I'd rather see the finite resources of dev time/creativty wrt raids go into pushing the envelop for high level characters (and making the abbot doable for pugs).

[frugal_gourmet]

As a new character, I actually had a blast running the VON series (including raid) the first few times with a level appropriate character. It probably propelled me to keep playing the game as a starter player because it piqued my interest for what the end game was like.

A non-capped raid can surely be fun for players. Whether it's worth the investment to create more is another question.

I do think VON and Tempest Spine are part of the reason I got sucked into this game.

[Tin_Dragon]

um, we dont need low level stuff, we need HIGHER LEVEL content, already got 80% of needed items from Hound, working on Visions, and tired of farming the Shroud and Vale area.

Sorry, but My 6 level 16 toons dont need lowbie gear, and my non capped toons will do fine without it as well.

Please dont waste time Devs