Intimidate as a Paladin Skill....Long Overdue

[Riot]

If you do this... What are you going to do for Fighters?

If you let paladins have access to intimidate abilities On TOP of CHA being a priority stat, you are basically sweeping the legs out from under the fighters.

[Dracolich]

Why dont we make every skill available to every class. I meen we have the people who cry because their paladin doesnt have intimidate, you have the sorcs who think they should have UMD. D&D 3.5 was the basis they used for the skill system in DDO like it or not. Just because they took artistic license on some skills should not give us an excuse to move even further away from the system. Its bad enough now as it is with skills, feats and even a weapon not being per rules. May as well change it to 4E rules because that seems what all of you want.

[Borror0]

If you do this... What are you going to do for Fighters?

If you let paladins have access to intimidate abilities On TOP of CHA being a priority stat, you are basically sweeping the legs out from under the fighters.

Would you be fine with what I suggest, that paladins get an Intimidate-like Diplomacy option and that fighters get shaken when intimidating?

[Turial]

Would you be fine with what I suggest, that paladins get an Intimidate-like Diplomacy option and that fighters get shaken when intimidating?

Anyone else find it disturbing that we are having a conversation with such deep ramifications so late into the games development?

With all the odd changes and repeated statements as to what the paladin class may or may not be by the devs kinda makes me wonder ...

Fighters get shaken with an enhancment to make is a dispare like effect and we will call it good.

[rimble]

Make it an inherent aura sort of thing. Evil things want to smash the pure shiny good thing. Happens in PnP all the time. Don't need to make Intimidate a class skill necessarily, just give us some tool that fits within our idiom. Maybe start with changing our aggro Enhancement to just really grab aggro absolutely like Intimidate does, not just count our low DPS as double for aggro purposes.

[Borror0]

Anyone else find it disturbing that we are having a conversation with such deep ramifications so late into the games development?

Well, the game has changed and paladins cannot fill the roll they used to.

Before, paladins were mid-AC offtanks with kinda nice DPS and added benefits. There was reason to go up to level 12, and the cap was 12. Now, there are no reasons to go up to 16 (unless you think that BoG IV matters enough and there you would be in a minority) and the paladins no longer have 'nice DPS' when they are offtanks.

Shortly put, the paladins weren't broken before. But yes, in a way, it's scary we're trying to define a class so late in the game.

Fighters get shaken with an enhancment to make is a dispare like effect and we will call it good.

Why should it be an enhancement or fighter exclusive?

[Varr]

Anyone else find it disturbing that we are having a conversation with such deep ramifications so late into the games development?


Just my take, but as new mods come out and both the characters and playing environments change, these discussions need to be revisted. From my perspective.......Paladins were terrific thru level 12 cap and the desert. Which was the first 18 months of the past 30 or so the game has been around. But once ac fell off the table, and players became more tactical.......using intimidate and diplomacy as an example durring combat..........Paladins became less.

One of my most vivid memories is of my 40 ac blugeoning Paladin at level (10 or 12?) in chains of flame, the burning city.......running it for the first time (right after mod dropped) carrying 5 stones..........praying, digging........hunting for a shrine. Eventualy overwhelmed by the gnolls........emily and wisgoddess esp rooting me on. Lol, one of my fondest runs.

[Borror0]

Make it an inherent aura sort of thing. Evil things want to smash the pure shiny good thing. Happens in PnP all the time. Don't need to make Intimidate a class skill necessarily, just give us some tool that fits within our idiom.

So, an auto-aggro ability without any sacrifice nor button pressing?

You call that balanced?

[Dexxaan]

Borr´s Diplo-Split ability is quite sensible IMO.

I guess we can all wait and see....just dont hold your breath!

[rimble]

So, an auto-aggro ability without any sacrifice nor button pressing?

You call that balanced?

Well,

1) I was referring to the existing aggro Enhancement...that costs AP, a button press, and has limited uses.

2) You need to chill out during brainstorming sessions, you're really bad at this.

[Borror0]

I was referring to the existing aggro Enhancement...that costs AP, a button press, and has limited uses.

D'oh, deleted the text I wanted to keep rather than deleting the text I ended up keeping. ><

Fixed now.

[rimble]

So, an auto-aggro ability without any sacrifice nor button pressing?

You call that balanced?

I think you misunderstand. First part referred to maybe working something into the aura to reflect the natural hate things have for goody-goody Paladins, the second part was referring to possibly beefing up the existing aggro-grabbing Enhancement, possibly making it auto-aggro on hit, maybe for three seconds or so.

As for the aura, perhaps the aura can maintain a certain minimum level of aggro on things. Or the longer they're within your aura the more it builds up. Sort of an aggro-over-time type thing. Just something to reflect enemies wanting to punch that shiny do-gooder in the face. Since the devs appear to be big on tying things into Charisma, maybe the higher your Charisma the more aggro-over-time your aura causes. Then you could also break out some cross-class Intimidation (with your high Charisma) to pump your aggro up enough so everything wants to attack you. Aura-Aggro + Cross-Class Intimidate should end up roughly equivalent to Fighter with maxed Intimidate. Same result, but more flavor.

[binnsr]

Make it an inherent aura sort of thing. Evil things want to smash the pure shiny good thing. Happens in PnP all the time. Don't need to make Intimidate a class skill necessarily, just give us some tool that fits within our idiom. Maybe start with changing our aggro Enhancement to just really grab aggro absolutely like Intimidate does, not just count our low DPS as double for aggro purposes.

So, an auto-aggro ability without any sacrifice nor button pressing?

You call that balanced?

Warforged already have that ability - Brute Fighting. And it does work.. its not as guaranteed as intimidate, but mobs will gravitate towards my WF Intimitank (with BF IV) in most fights even without my mashing of the intimidate button -- the intimidate just seals the deal

Giving paladin's +25% agro automatically with the full enhancement line wouldn't be out of line, I wouldn't think. It could even be +50% against evil mobs for that matter and I wouldn't see an issue with it.

[Borror0]

Warforged already have that ability - Brute Fighting.

That's actually not what rimble suggested.

Brute Fighting means that the WF has to damage the mob to gain its aggro.

rimble's suggestion is an auto-aggro aura that attracts mobs directly to you at the moment they get close enough. That is not balanced and a bad idea.

[rimble]

Brute Fighting means that the WF has to damage the mob to gain its aggro. rimble's suggestion is an auto-aggro aura that attracts mobs directly to you at the moment they get close enough.

It's not an absolute lockdown, just a minimum level of aggro the Paladin receives within his aura. Damage dealers will still pull the aggro away easily if you're not doing more to keep their attention.

[Jay203]

Pretty straight forward concept.

It makes as much (or more) sense that a Holy Warrior can instill more fear than a Fighter or depending on Mob type, similar to a Barbarian.


I´m not saying make Mob Type another variable, but definitely that it should be a class skill with it´s own enhancement line, etc..

Eladrin? Turbine? Forumites....?

Note: My posts are Muffin-Free Zones....he´s got to have me /ignored by now.

instill fear into enemy to make them less likely to attack you!!
i don't like where you guys are going with this, just because you guys keep making intimitanks with pally for high ac builds doesn't mean you guys should change the intimidate to a pally class skill

[Borror0]

Same result, but more flavor.

Sorry, but I don't find it more 'flavorful'.

Why in hell would an evil mob want to smash the good-doer more than neutral barbarian that is tearing him up? Doesn't make much sense from a RP perspective.

As for 'same results', let me disagree in that what you're suggesting is a bit clunky or overpowered... depending how the 'numbers' used.

[eonfreon]

I think you misunderstand. First part referred to maybe working something into the aura to reflect the natural hate things have for goody-goody Paladins, the second part was referring to possibly beefing up the existing aggro-grabbing Enhancement, possibly making it auto-aggro on hit, maybe for three seconds or so.

As for the aura, perhaps the aura can maintain a certain minimum level of aggro on things. Or the longer they're within your aura the more it builds up. Sort of an aggro-over-time type thing. Just something to reflect enemies wanting to punch that shiny do-gooder in the face. Since the devs appear to be big on tying things into Charisma, maybe the higher your Charisma the more aggro-over-time your aura causes. Then you could also break out some cross-class Intimidation (with your high Charisma) to pump your aggro up enough so everything wants to attack you. Aura-Aggro + Cross-Class Intimidate should end up roughly equivalent to Fighter with maxed Intimidate. Same result, but more flavor.

The main problem I'd have with this "Aura Aggro" is if it always on. There are times when you don't want to grab the aggro, especially off of another tank that is specifically set to grab that aggro.
Give it a button to push, cost either skill points or action points, and maybe it'll be feasible.
As a passive always-on ability, I think it would be a bad idea.

[rimble]

Sorry, but I don't find it more 'flavorful'.

Why in hell would an evil mob want to smash the good-doer more than neutral barbarian that is tearing him up? Doesn't make much sense from a RP perspective.

As for 'same results', let me disagree in that what you're suggesting is a bit clunky or overpowered... depending how the 'numbers' used.

It's not automatic. Grrr, kill that do-gooder! OW, HOLY ****! Kill that Barbarian!

Why would anyone attack the Intimidating Figher over the Raging Barbarian? Waaaa! He glared at me! That argument doesn't hold much water.

Anyways, ideas is ideas, and I like it.

[Borror0]

It's not an absolute lockdown, just a minimum level of aggro the Paladin receives within his aura. Damage dealers will still pull the aggro away easily if you're not doing more to keep their attention.

Let me be blunt, then. What's the point to it then?

If you put it too high, it'll be just overpowered compared to Intimidate (which is something to avoid). However, if you put it too low it will just be too easy to grab the aggro away from it. Since we're talking about damage as raw number (rather than in percentage), it's very hard to design a curve that is balanced across the levels. Heck, just balanced for the equipment variations.