VON 3 hard

[GlassCannon]

Congrats on missing the fact that you needed to rebalance this quest down to the newer crowd after breaking the ever living hell out of it. You ran off at least 1 new player I was taking along for the XP and credit in the first raid series implemented. We were a well rounded level 8-9 party, and it was like trying to complete level 14-16 content!

Fix it please, before you alienate even more new customers. It needs to be geared to level 8-9's, not level 16's. I certainly hope in MOD 9 that I don't see beholders throwing Wail of the Banshee in VON 3 on Norm-hard, but it would not surprise me at all.

The spell list needs to not exceed caster level 5. The damage output needs to be recalculated for characters that do not have Toughness coming out their ears(Keep in mind the caster types forgot what Resist:Energy was for a while). The ACs and HP need to be rebalanced to people wielding their brand new +4 Longsword. The quest needs to be made new again, as if people who have never run it before are just beginning to run it.


Seriously, stop tweaking the old content to "make things more interesting", unless you are adding a new hallway or something. Making something already difficult nearly impossible is not making it more fun, it makes it more frustrating and stressful. Frustration and stress are not fun. I'd think that by now the Dev Team was aware of this.


As for you Powergamers that will likely post in this thread, I hereby challenge you to Permadeath Play. You will run VON 3 as a level 8 Pure Class with zero twink gear, and very very few potions if you are to have a valid argument here(What this means: 28 point build, no multiclassing, no AH gear, no hand-me-downs, no tomes, just whatever you pull out of chests and can buy from a Potion Vendor, or Wand vendor respectively).


Edit2: The main problems were: The named Troll hits too hard and has a regen a bit too high. His HP needs to be tones down as well. The named Beholder has an AC higher than a Dwarven Defender and HP to match it, this needs to change. The Marut also has a very high AC and hits much much harder than he used to. We went in Hard because we had some level 9's in party and thoguht we could handle it(Mine was twinked too....) Total deaths for the party by the end of the quest were over 40(lost count after 30, but the deaths didnt stop). We were insistent on getting it done.

[Zenako]

Ok, what specifically do you feel they have changed about the quest. It was never "easy" to take on all those beholders in part 3. While it has been a few weeks since I last ran it, I don't recall seeing anything different back then.

[toughguyjoe]

I actually think that Von 3 is a pretty challenging quest, i also think that a quest like that is a death trap for permadeath players.

IF i ever try permadeath, i assure you my character, no matter what race or class WILL NEVER see a beholder.

thats right. if i'm going to be a a part of a roleplaying, permadeath experience, i'm going to roleplay as someone who oh i don't know.

fears all abberations. including beholders, and mindflayers.


Hoever on the note of Von 3. i think that new players really would have trouble with this quest. it can be confusing. you can draw agro from stepping a few feet down the left when you were supposed to go right. The spell casters throw spells designed to mess up your vision, and your speed while their fighters engage you.

Is this quest easy for a twink group? very. running through it on twinks at the appropriate level isn't too bad. Done it several times, not a problem. I think part of the problem lays in newer players need people to..help them through things. i don't mean running ahead and finishing the quest while leaving them in the dust. however, i wouldn't see a problem with telling a newer player to follow several steps behind my toon and only attack single mobs, don't try and draw too much agro, etc..etc..

Maybe, Von3 is one of those quests designed with powergamers in mind. I just know i've completed it in 8 minutes.

however my oppinion is that if you are a new player, stay out of raid content until you feel REALLY confident in your gear and abilities.

i bet A_D will come over and say that "even though you can avoid VoN3 it doesn't mean it isn't broken"

[Raithe]

VoN 3 and Proof is in the Poison are high caster count quests that require a different set of tactics than what is commonly found in typical "MMO experienced" groups. My biggest pet peeves in the game are associated with these quests when good tactics are not followed mostly for the sake of ego.

1) The melee that should typically lead throughout the quests are rogues (preferrably), rangers, and monks. A high stealth bard might work too. The reasons for this are obvious. Everyone else should lag considerably far behind and let the evasion/stealth crew get positioned to take out casters before joining the fray (which they need to do quickly after the battle commences).

2) Weakening, if available, should be used on beholders. A weakening bow with manyshot or repeater may be one of the best bets. Ray of enfeeblement and/or ray of exhaustion will help with that. Web is a good AoE spell to "catch" beholders that make it past an assault. High fort characters, especially warforged, are the best to lead assaults against beholders. Other character types should try to stay close behind one of these lead assaulters.

3) The red named and Marut should all be handled mostly by spellcasters. Solid fog and firewall + scorching ray or magic missile.

I actually think these types of quests are very good indicators of the quality of teamwork a particular group possesses. I also think they replicate conditions, to a minor degree, of what the game would be like in a group vs. group PvP setting.

[captain1z]

On normal I could see your arguement and might even agree. On hard, I would think twinking was the norm........... Its suppossed to be hard.

The beholders are the only things in VON 3 that make the quest difficult on any setting and I think thats only because we have little to no defense vs them.

Any defense we may put up is stripped and then 1 of 2 rays ends us: enervation or disintergrate.

Deathblock items dont work vs either and one has no save.


What works for me:

- stay out of line of sight
- casters drop firewall on beholes with limited space to move
- rangers strafe between cover points
- lead them into web and let the fighters hack em to bits
- warforged have less to worry about
- always hold someone back who can save you all in the event of a near wipe (rogue/cleric or sneaking guy)


they suck but brains will beat them before brawn does.

[Chelsa]

We can talk tactics all day long and call each other power gamers, but the issue comes down to knowing the games mechanics. Veteran players use to take 1-2 hours to run Von3, on normal, when it first came out and you had to be hardcore to run elite. So, from my perspective, and I still run the Vons series for every character I level up, players will either accept the challenge the game offers and learn from their experiences or find a game that is easier and more forgiving to their style of play.

[Shagn]

Reminds me how bad von3 was 'back in the day' - a real challenge. Glad to hear somebody still gets that experience from the game.

While VON3 on hard is hard, I am still disgusted how much damage traps do now. A full group of twinked lvl16's in Twilight Forge on elite (lvl13) can't even get down one of the 'cannon' hallways without dying - with full resists and protections. I'm sure somebody will comment "have the rogue disable them"... well, you can't. There is no way to disable them without running through and killing the ogres. Now that fogs (such as cloudkill) cannot affect mobs through walls with holes in them, the quest is broken. Why do clouds not affect mobs through fences?? Even though we found a way to bypass the lava part to get the door switch, I'm sure the Dev's did not want us to be jumping up a fence to bypass this. This quest has also been broken ever since they changed the fire prot spell.

[Gadget2775]

Hmmmm....Just to make sure I have this correct.

You took a group with new players into VoN 3 on Hard.
Those new players were not twinked.
VoN 3 on normal is a level 9 quest.
VoN 3 on hard is more or less a level 11 quest that drops level 10 loot.
You're upset because...

• A group of level 8 and 9's with new untwinked players were slaughtered by Beholders designed for a party of level 11 characters.
• A named Beholder was even harder than the individual, non-named beholders.
• A named troll (also designed for a party of level 11 players) hit too hard and regened to fast.

New untwinked players should not be running content like that on hard, so shame on you for taking them in like that.

Beyond that, if you're really careful and let either the casters or Rangers take the beholders out one at a time (stealth like) the number of deaths you described shouldn't have happened. Tactically speaking a Ranger using a weakening bow and manyshot should be able to take out any beholder you come across (even the named, since they're orange not red). Hit each one with two Rangers and you're golden. If said Rangers aren't available you send in the Wiz or Sorc to pop em one at a time with PK. Worst case scenario you send one player (read dead man walking) in to grab agro and turn the beholder away from the caster. For anything else I missed regarding Beholders you should look up Cow's color coded Guild to Beholders.

With regards to the Troll. You let the stupid thing regen? Even if the melees didn't have flaming or acid weapons (again shame on you) of some sort a caster can pop it with an acid arrow and bam! No more regen. Add in basic CC with a solid fog and that troll could've been a breeze.

Again, all of this suppose that you, the experienced player, had guided them away from trying to clear through there on Hard.

[vyvy3369]

...The beholders are the only things in VON 3 that make the quest difficult on any setting and I think thats only because we have little to no defense vs them.

Any defense we may put up is stripped and then 1 of 2 rays ends us: enervation or disintergrate...

That right there (Enervate no longer having a save) is one of the worst changes (IMO) DDO has seen since launch. Beholders used to be the ultimate test of whether or not your character was survivable and had good enough saves. Now they're just an exercise in frustration - if you don't kill them fast enough, you'll eventually be enervated enough that you'll die from neg levels, fail one of the other deadly rays, or finish the fight so low that you need to spend a significant amount of resources to recover. It seems like with the new content especially, Beholders are the new Rust monsters...maybe in MOD8 they'll start using a ray that breaks our equipment.

[Karll]

ummmm.. ran Von 3 a two-three weeks ago with levels 7-9 and completed it.. It wasn't easy, not going to say people didn't die, but no one got frustrated and quit the game over it...

the quest is difficult... thats all... pullin down 10k xp at level 7 should be difficult.

If every quest was like Defend Haverdasher, what the heck would be the fun in it?

anyway, the quest is beatable.

[Turial]

...maybe in MOD8 they'll start using a ray that breaks our equipment.

Disintegrate can already do this.

[vyvy3369]

Disintegrate can already do this.

IIRC, pretty much any damaging spell can if you roll a 1 on the save. I was jokingly referring to the fact that Disjunction will probably be coded soon, and what better candidate for using it than Beholders? Anyways, I used to love fighting Beholders, but now they're just as frustrating as Rusties.

[captain1z]

Beholders are exclusive creations of the WoTC D&D worlds. Unlike dwarves, elves and whatever they would not be ok with someone else using the creature or its likeness for any reason without permission.

Being as WoTC holds beholes so close to the chest its possible Turbine had some incentive to make sure every encounter with one was no walk in the park. Dungeons, Dragons, Beholders............ WoTC wants you to expect certain things when you hear these names and Turbine is trying to deliver.

dungeons = mystery and danger
dragons = epic encounter, heroic, iconic
beholders = eye tyrant, a gaze from 1 of its many eyes means death (and cheezy medusa mirror tricks wont work)


Yes, beholders suck.............. but I like many players have learned to adapt and deal with it (killable even without twinking)

[Turial]

IIRC, pretty much any damaging spell can if you roll a 1 on the save. I was jokingly referring to the fact that Disjunction will probably be coded soon, and what better candidate for using it than Beholders? Anyways, I used to love fighting Beholders, but now they're just as frustrating as Rusties.

All depends on how disjunction is coded in this game. I still like beholders but I have optics to protect me.

[Averroes]

That right there (Enervate no longer having a save) is one of the worst changes (IMO) DDO has seen since launch. Beholders used to be the ultimate test of whether or not your character was survivable and had good enough saves. Now they're just an exercise in frustration - if you don't kill them fast enough, you'll eventually be enervated enough that you'll die from neg levels, fail one of the other deadly rays, or finish the fight so low that you need to spend a significant amount of resources to recover. It seems like with the new content especially, Beholders are the new Rust monsters...maybe in MOD8 they'll start using a ray that breaks our equipment.

Although I agree that removing the save from enervate was a bad change, the underlined part of your statement is decidedly not true.

As has been well documented (there was a thread devoted specifically to this topic, complete with snazzy diagrams -- it was even a thread of the week, as I recall), beholders can only shoot certain rays in certain directions. Enervate is only available within their frontal 120- or 180-degree arc. Stay alongside them or behind them and you won't be enervated.


And Von3 continues to be one of my favorite quests. That people still have this much trouble with it two and a half years after it was released is, in my estimation, the ultimate validation of quality level design.

To the OP: when Von3 was released, a +5 weapon was still fairly snazzy. +5 fullplate was rare, and few people had complete sets of +4 stat items. Yet, somehow, we all managed to complete it.

[Gol]

To the OP: when Von3 was released, a +5 weapon was still fairly snazzy. +5 fullplate was rare, and few people had complete sets of +4 stat items. Yet, somehow, we all managed to complete it.

On elite, no less.

[Freeman]

On elite, no less.

Yep, I still remember running it back then. The worst part was the XP debt you would end up with after the Beholder room. You would be lucky to break even at the end of the quest.

[Lifeblood]

I am sorry you feel it is geared for lvl 14/16's.. a group of 14-16's can run 1-4 on elite in 40-45 min.

having said that it is a tough quest if you don't know your way or have a very green crew running it.. but then it was designed to be a tough quest
your not in the harbor anymore..

The first time I ran 1-4 was in a lvl 6-8 group. most of us had never even seen a beholder. (we were all 28pt builds and in the same Guild)
none of us had ever run the vons on any character. it was an experience to remember. actually one of my favorite memories in DDO
I wont tell you how long it took us to finish but I will tell you we were into overtime.

I would not be surprised if we hold the record for the longest von 1-4 run in the history of ddo. ya we were all noobs

I cant even remember how many times we had to restart part 2 because someone fell. but i do know by the time we were done with part 3 not one person in the party was getting any xp and most of us were 30k or more in the hole. we were also lucky enough to pull ALL the named beholders..i have to tell you we got really good at the run in

as far as being broken I don't agree with you, i just ran it 10 days ago and yes it was tough but we made it group was 7-9

[VirieSquichie]

On normal I could see your arguement and might even agree. On hard, I would think twinking was the norm........... Its suppossed to be hard.

The beholders are the only things in VON 3 that make the quest difficult on any setting and I think thats only because we have little to no defense vs them.

Any defense we may put up is stripped and then 1 of 2 rays ends us: enervation or disintergrate.

Deathblock items dont work vs either and one has no save.


What works for me:

- stay out of line of sight
- casters drop firewall on beholes with limited space to move
- rangers strafe between cover points
- lead them into web and let the fighters hack em to bits
- warforged have less to worry about
- always hold someone back who can save you all in the event of a near wipe (rogue/cleric or sneaking guy)


they suck but brains will beat them before brawn does.

The straight on approach only works for the ubertwinks, and the AoE approach has never been a good one for beholders. Web does work nicely on all but elite, PK has always been the spell of choice (I hear they're afraid of thumbtacks) and I've seen several people handle them without drama at level. I've only seen that area go really poorly when someone zergs into the middle of 'em all and gets 'em all active at once, really.

Now, the big combat just before the three named is another matter...I've seen that go poorly with even a well equipped party, if the baddies get people split up and not concentrating damage properly...again, party tactics and communication generally rules the day.

[Pwesiela]

Now, the big combat just before the three named is another matter...I've seen that go poorly with even a well equipped party, if the baddies get people split up and not concentrating damage properly...again, party tactics and communication generally rules the day.

Funny thing is, you get a partially decent body puller, and this fight is also a piece of cake.

The elf is far enough to the side of the other two that you can pull him separate. Then the beholder or the troll moves a bit and you can grab one or the other. Should you get both, well, take the troll into the chest room and Mr. big bad beholder can't do anything while you wail on his "friend".

Named beholder that you can't pk or otherwise feeblemind? He sets himself up very nicely for a well placed firewall.