Armored TWF - high AC possible?

[Aerendil]

Just curious if a reasonably medium-to-high AC fighter build is possible without going the DEX build with a Monk splash.
I realize a high DEX + WIS bonus is going to be numerically superior to wearing armor in most cases, but it just strikes me as odd (and horribly wrong) tanking a giant, fire-breathing dragon, wearing nothing but a cloth robe. I don't care if my AC is 200, I'd still feel... vulnerable.

So essentially I'd like to try to make a STR-build TWF Fighter (multiclassing if splashing is perfectly acceptable), while wearing heavy armor, and still have a reasonable AC.
Is this possible?

Dex to 19ish for the TWF feats shouldn't be too difficult these days, and with armor mastery enhancements you should be able to eek out a few extra AC points while wearing that adamantite fortified full plate of ugliness. Str is important for a reasonable dps (if I wanted to be "the" dps guy, I'd make a Barb or Ranger), as is some measure of surviving damage (either a high Con, HPs, or some other form of damage mitigation such as Warforged DR, perhaps, or Elven displacement dragonmarks).

So essentially it would be a happy medium between the uber AC / can't hit a thing builds, and the no AC - omgdidyouseethatcrit? builds. With heavy armor.

Any suggestions?

[stockwizard5]

I run 67 AC (69 without Rage) for most raids (76 with CE/Boost sometimes and 81 shield/blocking which I essentially never do) in Light Armor (for Evasion) with near max-dps on a STR based TWF build.

Is 67 High? If it is then yes - if not then you have a challenge (although acheivable) on your hands. If you don't care about evasion (which is what I think you are saying) then a 2 or 3 more points is not difficult to get.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm not a build expert, and especially not good at tweaking super high numbers.

But a couple thoughts.

You will need a semi-high dex.

+5 MFP and Ftr AM III will let you get +6 AC dex bonus I think.

Shield clickie. Or splash Wiz1 for a 2min Shield spell. (good idea for WF IMO)

It's not AC, but the Elf Dragon mark for displacement helps a whole lot!

Natural armor bonus from the ring of balance from Invaders tokens. Or barkskin potions.

Chattering ring if you can get it of course.

Dodge feat, TW Defense feat.

Parrying wep.

Protection items.

Silver Flame trinket should give the +2 to AC from evil monsters like PfE spell (doesn't show up though, so I'm not sure)

Combat expertise of course.

Not sure how that all adds up, but it's not a bad AC. (high 40's?, almost 50 maybe?)

Add alchemical armor ritual.

[maddmatt70]

My dwarven level 16 fighter norg who wears the fullplate from VOD doesn't have CE, but can still hit a mid 60's ac while twf with all the buffs (recitation, inspire heroics, barkskin, haste, and pally aura) so that would mean if he had CE he could hit about 70 ac... The highest ac armor wearing twf fighter would probably be a dwarf with a highish dex and fighter and dwarven armor mastery wearing mithral full plate. Look for the upcoming dwarven defender prestige enhnacements for those guys as well.

[Aerendil]

Stockwizard5 - I'd say 67 is high. At least high enough for most survival purposes, definitely, although you'd know better than I as you've assuredly been on the receiving end with that AC. How survivable is it?
And the light armour for Evasion is definitely a very great thing if you're the tank, but it does pain to me to think that heavier armors (medium, heavy) are almost penalized having very little draw to them, and that light armor / no armor is so much more superior in most circumstances (evasion/imp. evasion, +wis bonus if monk, +dex bonus can get insane, no penalties to skills if unarmored, etc.).
/sigh.
But yeah, light armour may be the way to go.

Talon - I was thinking along the same lines, and in fact a few of those you mentioned I hadn't considered. I can't recall the DR granted from Two-Weapon Blocking, but I might try to pick that up too.
It does seem as though I'd lean towards Elf, though, for those dragonmarks (and the fact I'm a softie for dual longswords doesn't help either), but Elven hps scare me sometimes. Hmmm.
Wonder if we can still tweak out 60+ to compete with Stockwizard5's build (fighter/barb/monk or rogue by the looks of it?) with an Elf Fighter (with perhaps a /Rogue2 splash for Evasion)?

[djinni69]

I am not quite sure how the ealier poster can get a 69AC on a STR based build, but man, I'd love to see that breakdown. Very serious equipment The following breakdown assumes a 26 Dex (on most STR builds that means a +3 Tome was choked down), +5 Mithral Chain Shirt, and either Daggertooth's belt or F.A.M. III

My best guess at this would be:

10 Base
8 Dex Bonus
9 Mithral Armor
1 Two Weapon Defense
1 Armor Chemical
4 Shield Clicky
5 Protection Item
4 Insight (Green Steel Weapon)
1 Dodge Feat
3 Chattering Ring
2 Chaosguardes
3 Natural Armor (Barkskin pot)
1 Haste
---
52

Raid Buffs
2 Barkskin Spell
2 Recitation
4 Bard AC Song
---
60

Turtling
5 Combat Expertise
---
65

Special Circumstances
5 Full Paladin
5 Fighter AC Boost
---
75

I am coming up short on the 69AC that's for sure! What am I missing? Bottom line is that no matter what you do, if you want the "uber" AC, you have to work the DEX pretty hard.

[stockwizard5]

Horde runs with 24 DEX = 16 (6 build points for halfling) + 2 (tome) + 2 (4 action points for halfling / rogue) + 4 (Breatsplate of Vol)

Minimal investment really.

[djinni69]

Can you list out the rest? If it's "company secrets" I understand However, I have a STR based Sword and Board that I want to convert to TWF when cap goes up, and I'd love to see what you've done.

[The_Phenx]

My halfling sports a 25 (soon to be 26) dex.

Fighters armor mastery 3

White dragonscale

Armor ritual

Chattering Ring

Seal of the Earth

Shroud offhand insight weapon.

Dodge Feat

Sits at 45 unbuffed
VOD armor would take him to 46

Two weapon defense to 47

Prot 5 to 48

This ac is plenty, even in the subterranea...then I have the hound sheild to go to 57 unbuffed.

With all normal buffs (shield clicky, full barkskin, bard buffs) he is usually in the mid to low 50's dual weilding and at a 67 in ac mode.

Hope that helps.

[Hadrian]

Do you mean white dragon scale armor or robe?

With a 25/26 dex and 3 armor masteries, a +5 MBP should let you cap out at a full +8 dex bonus with a 10 armor bonus. Also, do you wear chaosgarde? That could add 2 more.

[The_Phenx]

Nah chaotic good for the weapon choices, so no chaos garde...weaing the inferno bracers, which will be replaced by the vod bracers when I score a set.

White dragon plate.. I would replace with a breastplate, but its identical ac to what im sporting now, so....until there is a way to raise the dex bonus for me, I will be just happy it gives me a stupid high reflex save and better to hit with ranged.

After level cap raises I will be taking CE (more than likely) for those holy **** situations, wish I could have intimidate but I like the halfling guile and vod goggles sneak attack damage so i use halfling size to my advantage.

I just keep gear around ot dual role.

Keep hound shield.. PA goes off defensive fighting goes on, head of good fortune replaces the bloodstone...Potency 6 scepter instead of a sword, you get the idea. NOT quite as good as a full ac build but more than enough to keep me out of trouble, plus I have the full tiers of dragonmarks should the need to top myself off arise, and I can stit there and let them beat on me for a LONG time without attention from a cleric.

[Aerendil]

Hmm, so some high AC numbers *are* possible, although pretty gear-dependant (and I think it would be a long time coming before I saw half of that gear).

I'd be interested to see the builds on those listed above. 2 Rogue levels are awful tempting for Evasion (life-saver) and some UMD (the alternative, 2 Monk levels, tends to work for dex-builds, which I wouldn't want for the most part); but then Paladin is awful nice too (although that would be more of a Paladin build with some Fighter levels for TWF, and heavy shield mastery for those back-up situations where you'd rather have a shield than an extra weapon).

[The_Phenx]

Blazer has a build along those lines... he would be a good pally fighter twf hybrid guy to talk to.

But remember no matter what the build, gear is important.

In my case I used it to to go from uber to most uberest.

Oh and I went halfling and pure fighter... I can give the full details on the build if you really want them, even tho no matter how many times I do someone starts it and multiclasess and jacks it up halfway thru.

The fact that I can pop off a 270-440 pt heal on myself 5 times a rest plus 60-90 7 times and 30-60 9 times saves me WAY more than 1 or two extra ac points.

And as for an ac comparo... 67 is enough to tank the hound on elite without being hit. (goes to 71 w shield click and 76 w a pocket pally, but didn't use either) All this considering he also is a max dps kopesh dual weilder. The build is easy enough to modify for combat expertise as well, you would loose 1 ac in dps mode but gain 3 in ac mode... not a terribly large tweak. This is accomplished by adjusting the base dex downward, since the 19 base dex is no longer required due to superior twf being removed from the game.

[The_Phenx]

It's not AC, but the Elf Dragon mark for displacement helps a whole lot!

It is nice.. but... a 2nd tier shroud clickie (fairly easy to make) accomplishes this with 3 clicks of 1:35 displacement... and you dont waste three feats to get it, the only dragonmarks that are worth much at all are the halfling healing line.

Plus by going halfling you gain +1 ac +1 to hit and access to the halfling luck line for good boosts to your saves, and the halfling guile line for sweet sweet flanking damage and + to hit, and halfling dexterity.

[Hadrian]

Nah chaotic good for the weapon choices, so no chaos garde...weaing the inferno bracers, which will be replaced by the vod bracers when I score a set.

White dragon plate.. I would replace with a breastplate, but its identical ac to what im sporting now, so....until there is a way to raise the dex bonus for me, I will be just happy it gives me a stupid high reflex save and better to hit with ranged.

Sure, the same AC but it would allow you to use evasion if you splashed rogue. That would also provide the UMD to wear the choasgarde. It might not be what you want, but given the original poster's topic it might be more what he's looking for.

I'd find it hard to argue against keeping the same AC and gaining evasion. Either of the two new breastplates from the Hound would give you that option and add crippling or destruction to all of your attacks. Seems like it's all gain and no loss.

[The_Phenx]

Aye... ive considered the breastplates if I land a set. Would give back some of the skill points, But the Mith Fp from the same gives 1 higher ac... which is ideally what im after. I could gain two higher if I were to go mineral II helm and +5 mfp... but doing it the way I am I trade 1ac for 12 larges, and +3 to my will saves by going stalemate hit point helm. So I will stand at 46 unbuffed dw instead of 47.

Yes you can splash rouge into my build and gain evasion, but at the moment a lot is up in the air as to what the enhancement/feats they are releasing with the level cap change are going to do.

But then you loose bab, hit points, and 1 feat If im remembering correctly...which kills the build. For the current level range anyway.

It is designed to do 1 thing and do it well... kill fast and survive everything.

[Aerendil]

Sure, the same AC but it would allow you to use evasion if you splashed rogue. That would also provide the UMD to wear the choasgarde. It might not be what you want, but given the original poster's topic it might be more what he's looking for.

Yeah, true. And I'd be lying if I said it wasn't tempting. I've seen the benefits of Evasion on my Monk, and it's absolutely disgusting.

So a /2 Rogue splash would grant Evasion, and a healthy chunk of UMD that I could then cross-class with reasonable success (and get access to goodies such as Chaosgarde and other alignment or racially-restricted gear I come across, plus access to shield, blur, and other good wands/scrolls). And all without losing any possible skill points in Intimidate, which is a plus. But then I'd limit myself to Light Armor for Evasion...

Thankfully, TWF is useable irregardless of armour you have equipped, so that's a plus. But for whatever reason, the idea of a heavy/medium armored TWF still appeals to me... I'm not sure why.

As for armour, that white dragonplate armor would be tempting if for nothing else other than a shield 3/day clicky, (which would free up the need for UMD for shield clickies).

Bleh.
Tough call, although Phenx does sound like he's got quite the durable little halfling
I may just wait and see what Defender, Kensei, and the like offer, as that could really change things up for Fighters...

[The_Phenx]

Yeah, true. And I'd be lying if I said it wasn't tempting. I've seen the benefits of Evasion on my Monk, and it's absolutely disgusting.

So a /2 Rogue splash would grant Evasion, and a healthy chunk of UMD that I could then cross-class with reasonable success (and get access to goodies such as Chaosgarde and other alignment or racially-restricted gear I come across, plus access to shield, blur, and other good wands/scrolls). And all without losing any possible skill points in Intimidate, which is a plus. But then I'd limit myself to Light Armor for Evasion...

Thankfully, TWF is useable irregardless of armour you have equipped, so that's a plus. But for whatever reason, the idea of a heavy/medium armored TWF still appeals to me... I'm not sure why.

As for armour, that white dragonplate armor would be tempting if for nothing else other than a shield 3/day clicky, (which would free up the need for UMD for shield clickies).

Bleh.
Tough call, although Phenx does sound like he's got quite the durable little halfling
I may just wait and see what Defender, Kensei, and the like offer, as that could really change things up for Fighters...

The heavy armored twf appealed to me as well.. .thats one of the reasons I stayed fighter despite all the rage not to.

The white dragonplate is great... I will miss the always on cold resist...but I have a plan...

I wish Ghinsuu had evasion, but his reflex save is high enough to negate a lot anyway, I just keep hoping for an evasion raid item.

I think your right to wait... at least until mod 8 when the enhancements release.

[Aerendil]

So I'm sitting here on my lunch break reviewing this thread and still deciding which path to go.

The difference between +5 mithril chain shirt or breastplate (light armours), and +5 mithril full plate (heavy) is negligable, really. +/- 1 AC. That's it. Assuming I have the DEX to cap out on the lighter armours, but I'm assuming that's a given considering for TWF you want at least a 17 base anyways (which, with +6 DEX item = 23. So a 28 isn't out of the realm of possibility for capping out a +5 mithril chain shirt).

Assuming a non-Dwarf, of course (with Dwarf and D.A.M.3, it would be more feasible to go Heavy armour, since a +5 mithril chain shirt would require a whopping 34 dex to cap it out. Ouch!).

So really, it comes down to :
Light = allows you to still get reasonable scores in skills such as Jump, Hide, Move Silently, etc., due to lesser penalties from the armour; Evasion if Rogue or Monk-splashed.
Medium/Heavy = allows you to place more emphasis on a STR build, as you only need 17 DEX (+5 item). And it looks really cool.

Seems like Evasion wins out, unless you're more concerned (as I am) with physical looks and don't want to wait a dozen levels to look cool in that mithril breastplate.

However, I'm curious how survivable these builds are pre-teens.
It just seems that the vast majority of items that are going to make a huge difference on your AC don't come along until much later in the game (i.e. usually 12+).
White dragonplate armor (with shield clicky), shroud weapons, and chattering ring are some examples.

Is this just going to be one of those builds where I have to live with my gimped 30ish AC for a dozen levels, safe in the knowledge that assuming all of the limbs lost to monsters in the meantime will eventually regenerate, that I'll be a juggernaut at endgame?
Any tips/suggestions would help - I'll be doing my best to buy Barkskin / Shield of Faith pots as well as healing pots, switching out to Sword/Board if I need to, and so on. But I'm still curious if that'll be enough, as I had times on a S&B Dwarf where I still didn't have enough AC and got my arse handed to me.

So how did everyone else survive those levels?

[The_Phenx]

Cure serious pots and smart play