HelloooooooOOOO, Improved Power Attack Feat Please!

[Alavatar]

Moments require a fulcrum do they not? If you are looking at a lever across a fulrum and rotating said lever then I think you are correct.

In the case of swung weapons there is no fulcrum. Moments are the wrong measure. Force is the right measure via mass x velocity. If two weapons (say a short sword and a great sword) are swung with the same angular velocity the mean velocity of the great sword will be higher (its longer and the end must travel faster to maitain angular velocity.) If we also assume that the greatsword is of higher mass it become easy to see how it would over power the shorter lighter weapon.

Now remove the assumption that you can swing both weapons at the same speed. A person of a given strength would be able put a finite amount of energy into the weapon. The larger weapon would be swung slower until the end result of the equation is the same. Now, if you did a massive overhead chop (as in your axe example) the heavier weapon would get additional force from gravitational acceleration. Similar results would come from spinning your whole body around several times to build up angular velocity, but that would be very poor combat technique.

Yeah, you're right. I realized that as well, but wasn't sure if anyone would notice. I should have backed off of the moment argument after my second post.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that it is the strength of the weilder that will make the biggest difference in damage output.

Hence, the strength modifier being added to damage and the strength requirement for PA.

[redoubt]

Am I the only one hating 'real life' explanations to try to make decision on a fantasy game?

You go with what's most practical, for as long as it's not too aberrant... no? Power Attack makes you hit harder. Seems logic to me. How about you?

I'm not saying everything should be based on real life. If (note I said if) you are refering to my post about moments versus force, I was trying to stop the use of incorrect "real life" being used as a means to change the fantasy world.

I'm completely fine with having power attack make you hit harder. Sounds good to me too!

Can I put a little extra umph! on a dagger or a bow while I'm at it???

[Deathseeker]

Am I the only one hating 'real life' explanations to try to make decision on a fantasy game?

You go with what's most practical, for as long as it's not too aberrant... no? Power Attack makes you hit harder. Seems logic to me. How about you?

I think they are great....about as great as when I try to use a DDO example with my wife in a real-life argument. They are both as effective and compelling!

"Sorry honey, you can't yell at me...I am spamming my diplomacy skill on you"

Yep, that works about as well...

[Borror0]

If (note I said if) you are refering to my post about moments versus force, I was trying to stop the use of incorrect "real life" being used as a means to change the fantasy world.

I wasn't refering to your post.

I think they are great....about as great as when I try to use a DDO example with my wife in a real-life argument.

I have used video games as analogies to RL many times. Video games actually are very good content for simple analogies.

Video games are much less brainless than what some may think.

"Sorry honey, you can't yell at me...I am spamming my diplomacy skill on you"

Actually, it's the same. But like DDO's diplomacy, a natural 20 doesn't mean a success.

[jmelanie7]

So, a dwarf TWF with dwarven axes should gain from PA but not a rapier/shortsword drow?

That's totally silly. (Btw, a rapier is not a light weapon.)


Yes, and that's a very silly rule. It downpowers light weapons, that's all it does. It doesn't create a good balance.

Bah, you think a lvl 14rng/2mnk having a 60+ AC is balanced? If you compare to a tank using heavy armor and shield?
I say it would just make ALOT of those builds a little less attractive, while still being good. I think it would reduce the effectiveness of having a 60+ ac and outdps barbarians. My WF ranger has a 59AC buffed and outdps my barb. Ppl are given the choice to have alot of dps with a useless ac, or alot of dps with a uber ac, what will you choose? And the gap will even widen when tempest II will come out!! I vote use the pnp rules for power attack!

But if they do so, there will be alot of whining, because players are used to something, and you take it back from them.

And the part i do agree with you is that the rapier is not a light wpn and should get the benefit from power attack, so if you want to dual power attack, you would have to take a feat for it, oversized TWF to dual wield rapiers. Shortswords should not benefit from power attack, but still get the minus to attack if you decide to use PA with that rapier in your main hand.

[jmelanie7]

Remember, there is a difference between a rapier (a thin blade used primarily for thrusting) and a foil (what fencers usually practice with). Since a rapier is designed for thrusting it stands to reason that more strength behind the thrust would exhibit more pressure on the point of contact, therefore delivering a deeper wound.

But, accourding to the SRD, rapiers should not be getting the STR bonus to attack.

No they are, you are just given the choice to use WEAPON FINESSE with that particulat one-handed weapon. If you dont have weapon finesse feat, you apply your str bonus to attack.

Rapier
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

[Borror0]

Bah, you think a lvl 14rng/2mnk having a 60+ AC is balanced? If you compare to a tank using heavy armor and shield?

hehe, you're saying this to one of the person who has been most vocal about how overpowered monk AC boost is.

PS: It's not 60+ AC, it's 70+ AC.

I say it would just make ALOT of those builds a little less attractive, while still being good.

No, it doesn't.

I vote use the pnp rules for power attack!

Rationally explain me why!

As far as I'm concerned, it nerfs light weapons. That is all. You're not affecting rangers in any way.

[jmelanie7]

hehe, you're saying this to one of the person who has been most vocal about how overpowered monk AC boost is.

PS: It's not 60+ AC, it's 70+ AC.

No, it doesn't.

Rationally explain me why!

As far as I'm concerned, it nerfs light weapons. That is all. You're not affecting rangers in any way.

Im talking about the finesse tempest builds, it is nonsense that a toon starting with a 12 str, going all dex, with only a couple buffs can outdps a maxed str barbarian, this is exactly what Ssniper does, and he does have a useful AC.

So it affects every dex build character, not only DEX based rangers, I know, but I think that if you are a dex build, and want to use power attack, then I think that taking a feat to dual weild rapiers is reasonnable.

[Borror0]

Im talking about the finesse tempest builds, it is nonsense that a toon starting with a 12 str, going all dex, with only a couple buffs can outdps a maxed str barbarian, this is exactly what Ssniper does, and he does have a useful AC.

So it affects every dex build character, not only DEX based rangers, I know, but I think that if you are a dex build, and want to use power attack, then I think that taking a feat to dual weild rapiers is reasonnable.

They can still use rapiers, which they are already doing.

Taking a feat for lesser penalty is hardly balancing, furthermore when most Dex-based character have no trouble hitting on a -5.

[Riminy]

PA should require 15 strength to gain as a feat, like twf. Far to easy to obtain and so powerful. I mean with people hitting high 30's and 40+ dex the attack bonus difference between strength based paladins, fighters or such with only 26-32 strength is just simply lame. Sure a barb can hit high 40's str but its only in spurts and due to strength based clickies (which dont last too long) which dex based characters gain damage too with their inflated attack bonus'. I may be talking gibberish, im tired

edit: like GC said for PA.

[redoubt]

*hears conversation about AC imbalance*

*heads to doghouse to unchain Borro0!*

"****, he broke his chain again!"

[Borror0]

*heads to doghouse to unchain Borro0!*

"****, he broke his chain again!"

Am I that bad? XD

[Aesop]

PA should require 15 strength to gain as a feat, like twf.

then greater twf shoould require a 19 Dex like it does in the PHB

Far to easy to obtain and so powerful. I mean with people hitting high 30's and 40+ dex the attack bonus difference between strength based paladins, fighters or such with only 26-32 strength is just simply lame.

There are far more effects that affect strength than dex. the only reason there is any Dex benefit is because 3 races have a bonus to Dex and enhancements. A dex build is not the problem vrs a strength build in terms of DPS its a problem with AC vs a classic tank. Also the only way to hit that 40+ dex is by gimping a character out and using every trick in the book. Over a 36 is really unnecessary.

20 base
+2 elf halfling drow enhancements
+3 Ranger Rogue
+3 Tome
+4 Levels
+3 Shroud
+1 Abbot
+6 Item
+4 Rogue Acrobat (1 min)
+2 Alchmical (2 min)

that's the best i think you can do so for 1 min you can have a 48 which requires 2 clickies 3 worn items a +3 tome and a lot of starting points






Sure a barb can hit high 40's str but its only in spurts and due to strength based clickies (which dont last too long) which dex based characters gain damage too with their inflated attack bonus'. I may be talking gibberish, im tired


Gibberish yes. A Barbs Rage last a long time and can place tem in the mid 40s and they have multiple uses of them. not to mention Rage Spell, Madstone Rage, and Blood Rage to bringthem up to the mid 50S... yeah over the top and this affects to Hit and Damage not just to hit.

edit: like GC said for PA.

I find it ironic that after 2 years people are arguing that Finesse builds are too powerful... its a little insane to me

Aesop

[Aesop]

Am I that bad? XD

nope you a re worse

but I agree with you for the most part

Aesop

[Borror0]

I find it ironic that after 2 years people are arguing that Finesse builds are too powerful... its a little insane to me

People just don't get the cause-effect here, that is what is happening. Because, obviously, 70 AC Str-based rangers are much better than Dex-based ones.

It's not finesse builds that are too powerful but rangers and monk splashes. That's all.

[Aesop]

People just don't get the cause-effect here, that is what is happening. Because, obviously, 70 AC Str-based rangers are much better than Dex-based ones.

It's not finesse builds that are too powerful but rangers and monk splashes. That's all.

of course the Dodge Items aren't helping that much ... its all a trap. The more items they give that add to ac the higher the mobs to hit become in order to counter that new AC high.

[Borror0]

The more items they give that add to ac the higher the mobs to hit become in order to counter that new AC high.

Let's hope not, because ther is no way my 65 AC S&B (perfect gear, I can't go higher) can compete with a 75 AC ranger...

[Aesop]

Let's hope not, because ther is no way my 65 AC S&B (perfect gear, I can't go higher) can compete with a 75 AC ranger...

hell there are 80+ builds out there

The Alchemical Rituals should be tiered or affects should be a little different

have them do the following

Alchemical Armor Ritual 1

Cloth and Light Armor gain a +1 Alchemical Armor Bonus (or Dodge if that is necessary)
Medium and Heavy Armor gain a +2 Alchemical Armor Bonus (or Dodge if that is necessary)

For Warforged I think the effect should be based on whether or not you havea Body Feat... +1 without +2 With


Alchemical Shield Ritual 1

Bucklers and Light Shields gain a +1 Alchemical Shield Bonus (or Dodge if that is necessary)
Heavy and Tower Shields gain a +2 Alchemical Shield Bonus (or Dodge if that is necessary)

[Borror0]

hell there are 80+ builds out there

But that is overkill. But yes, there is that much potential. There's 16 AC between the highest S&B and highest TWF.

[Riminy]

I find it ironic that after 2 years people are arguing that Finesse builds are too powerful... its a little insane to me

Aesop

I also ment to say that the inflated dex leads to incredible ac's however i guess you cant read my mind Adding items like icy rainment, (possible +4 ac more then the white robe) dont help the the difference between fighters and monk ranger splashes. I think theres a possible 100 ac at once in the game from a build i saw. Overkill but still ridiculous.