Named Loot in the subter would help the game A LOT

[Venar]

We did a guild Hound run last night, and since we were between us, we made a small explorer detour into the "deep tunnel".
After a few fights, we found a second portal, leading to "the Den of the Beast". There we found a named, the Son of Xizzy.

My initial thought was: cool.
After the kill and the **** chest, it became: i will never come here again.

Just like that Skelton General, the Devil General, and all the other hidden bosses in there.

Now, named loot draw out players.
Just look at the renewed popularity of GoP after you put in the Raiment, or OOB after the new gloves made it. People still hunt the desert, PoP, Xorian Cypher.

Many players take their main on shroud, hound, and vod every 3 days and are bored otherwise. I strongly believe that putting nice named loot in the various Subterrean chest, which are, lets face it, not easy at all to get, would give players a fun activity to do.

How do create interresting but not Ovepowered loot? Easy: take an unusual ability (like the firestorm greave, of the planar gird), OR, put a stat on an unusual slot (bloodstone, reaver ring) or, give a popular basic item a little boost (like adding a spell focus to some INT 6 goggles).

Exemple of little things that would draw players out:

- a trinket with FF and UWA
- Dex 6 boots of striding 25%
- GFL belt of balance 15
- a mask with cha 6, intim 15, Lighning guard
- a +3 vorpal Kukri
- a +5 Impact holy silver quaterstaff weighted 10%

You know, little stuff, not too strong, but enough for people to hunt them.

[sirgog]

We did a guild Hound run last night, and since we were between us, we made a small explorer detour into the "deep tunnel".
After a few fights, we found a second portal, leading to "the Den of the Beast". There we found a named, the Son of Xizzy.

My initial thought was: cool.
After the kill and the **** chest, it became: i will never come here again.

Just like that Skelton General, the Devil General, and all the other hidden bosses in there.

Now, named loot draw out players.
Just look at the renewed popularity of GoP after you put in the Raiment, or OOB after the new gloves made it. People still hunt the desert, PoP, Xorian Cypher.

Many players take their main on shroud, hound, and vod every 3 days and are bored otherwise. I strongly believe that putting nice named loot in the various Subterrean chest, which are, lets face it, not easy at all to get, would give players a fun activity to do.

How do create interresting but not Ovepowered loot? Easy: take an unusual ability (like the firestorm greave, of the planar gird), OR, put a stat on an unusual slot (bloodstone, reaver ring) or, give a popular basic item a little boost (like adding a spell focus to some INT 6 goggles).

Exemple of little things that would draw players out:

- a trinket with FF and UWA
- Dex 6 boots of striding 25%
- GFL belt of balance 15
- a mask with cha 6, intim 15, Lighning guard
- a +3 vorpal Kukri
- a +5 Impact holy silver quaterstaff weighted 10%

You know, little stuff, not too strong, but enough for people to hunt them.

I really like these ideas.

IMO there should be five types of named items:

1) Good but not 'uber' items that lots of players want, but where better items exist.
A good example of this at low level is the Sickle of Sypheros (+1 Frost sickle, ML 2). It's a really good item when you first get it (if you are a newbie, which is who this item is designed for), and probably the best 1-handed DPS weapon you'll have found yet - but better items are possible on the loot tables.
A few good examples of this from Mod 5:
The Banner Cloak (+6 Charisma cloak, ML 13) - was a pretty good item when +6 stat items were rarer
Breastplate of Vol (+5 Mith BP, +4 Dex, ML 12) - pretty good again, the powergamers will instead seek out a +5 Fearsome Mith BP; or a +5 mith BP of Axeblock, but it's still nice to pull. (The BP of Vol fits the second category too)

2) Items with two powerful effects, each of which would usually take up an individual item slot
These may be extremely sought-after items, like the Titan Belt (which is so good it was made raid loot); or the Boots of the Innocent (also fits Category 3); or they may just never become particularly popular (like Electric Haze), but these items do something that nothing on the random loot tables can match at their minimum level.
Further examples include the Ancient Band and Jinx's Vexation.

3) Items with a very common effect, found in a totally unusual item slot.
Seeker 6 is very common - but not on a trinket, so the Bloodstone is very popular. (Likewise Pouch of Jerky and Thrane's Goggles provide Greater False Life and Sneak Attack +5 in unusual item slots, albeit in addition to other effects). At low level, the Skeleton Key is another example.

4) Unusual clickies. Many potent spells don't exist in clicky form on the random loot tables - until along comes something like the Eternal Wand of Cure Minor Wounds, or one of the game's two Greater Command clickies, or the Cloak of Ice. Putting more clickies on the random loot tables is IMO dangerous for game balance - putting them on named items; however; works fine.

5) Items with totally unique effects.
The Scourge Choker. The Icy Maiments. The Docent of Defiance. The Golden Cartouche (and other +UMD items) And, some not so memorable ones - like Gwylan's Blade.
All of these have effects that cannot be even close to copied by any item on the random loot tables. They do something totally and utterly unique that requires both a named item, and specific Dev time to code them.


As far as the Subterrane goes, I'd like to see some items from Categories 1 and 2, and maybe 3 or 4 added there. I prefer to see type 5 only used in key storyline quests.

Example possible items (some will be popular, some not, minimum levels mostly 14, 15 and 16).

Tyrant's Bane
Bastard Sword
+2
Holy
Alchemical Silver
Evil Outsider Bane

Revival
Ring
Deathblock
+5 Constitution

Eternal Wand of Force Missiles
Clicky - looks like a Wand
10/day clicky: Force Missiles; caster level 16
Exclusive

Bulwark of Infinity
Tower Shield
+5
Adamantine
Heavy Fortification

Crystalline Shard
Dagger
+5
Keen
Maiming
Icy Burst
Puncturing
Naturally increased base damage - 1d8
Increased toughness, decreased durability

(I consider this to be in category 1 as a +5 Keen Puncturing Rapier will generally outperform it (not to mention W/P anything), although it has some unique characteristics too)

Mask of Terror
Helm
Fearsome
Intimidate +10


So yeah, consider me /signed, and the Devs should feel free to rip off some of these ideas. The illusion of new content can sometimes be just as appealing as actual new content.

[Naso24]

I am in total agreement, but one thing irks me about the subterranean, too many immunities that simply do not exist in the vale or other explorer areas. There is no way to instakill the living spells, or charm them. Funny, they are the only "oozes" in game I would care to use ooze puppet on. Banishment doesn't work. The undead skellies are immune to death effects and are also immune to command/control undead.

Ever try exploring with a few people? The area is designed to have a party of 12 roll through it.

Add the loot, and adjust a bit, and then it would be another fun place to go.

[Borror0]

Nice posts, Venar and sirgog. I agree with what you both said.

Personally, I'd add Chattering Ring to the loot tables there because that ring doesn't belong as a raid loot that is this rare. It's simply too powerful the way it is, and since Turbine doesn't want to remove it from the game and rebalance the mobs' to-hit accordingly they should make it easier to get. (Although I still think that removing it and adding a message like 'All monster's attack rolled of quests of level 13 or higher has been reduced by 2 on Normal, 3 on Hard and 4 on Elite.' or something similar to the release notes would be best. Obviously, some mobs with already really low to-hit may escape that rule, but that is a case by case scenario.)

Honestly, how many times do you hear 'I'd make an AC character, but I don't want to grind the ring?

Adding a +2-3 Insight AC item wouldn't be a bad idea either.

As for clickies, be careful with these. Some spells are too powrrful to be made as lnog duration clickies. Shield is an example of one.

[Angelus_dead]

Now, named loot draw out players.

That might be better than nothing, but overall would be inferior to the alternative of new loot in new/upgraded quests. (Particularly, upgrading some existing never-played quests like DOI and the like with level 16 mobs and named loot would be a superior way to add content). The Subteranne simply isn't a well-designed place for that kind of loot-hunting. (In fact, it's not really well-designed for any gameplay purpose, although as a prelude to Hound of Xoriat it isn't too bad).

Think about the Bloodstone in Sands of Menechetarum for example. When it was upgraded to be a really good item, gameplay was hurt because a big loot incentive was created to run out to one specific place over and over, recalling and resetting after each boring jog. Adding good loot to Subterrane would only be a little different, because from time to time you'd have to stop at a doorway to kill the couple mobs locking it.

In fact, because the Subterrane is a 12-man instance, adding good loot would be much worse than putting loot in any previous wilderness. The obstacles in the Subterrane simply aren't interesting for a 12-player team, or even 6 players. If there were good items there, obtaining them would be a matter of crowd-jogging... only a few players have to take actions to clear the way, while the majority of them are just along for the ride to mooch a chest in exchange for pressing the buttons to walk there.

Also, the addition of a new good loot to Ghosts of Perdition (Icy Rainment) must also be viewed as a big failure for what it did to gameplay.

[Borror0]

Also, the addition of a new good loot to Ghosts of Perdition (Icy Rainment) must also be viewed as a big failure for what it did to gameplay.

True, but you got to admit that GoP was a poor choice of a quest. Few peole ever enjoyed that one and it wasn't because it wasn't rewarding.

A fight against a Lawful Good Undead Incorpereal Red Named Beholder with insane HP isn't what I would call 'fun'.

[Impaqt]

I think the devs really struck out with the Planar coins..... The low/mid level turn ins are pretty useless, and the high end ones are itsm that can be looted or given to youfor favor.... Doesnt make sense. The turn ins should of been unique items like the Orchard. That would of make a lot more sense. I also dotn understand why they are bound either. Tapestrie items are actually far superior. and the shreds arent bound... People still run the Orchard often for taps..

[Angelus_dead]

True, but you got to admit that GoP was a poor choice of a quest.

Subterrane is also a bad choice.

A fight against a Lawful Good Undead Incorpereal Red Named Beholder with insane HP isn't what I would call 'fun'.

It's a fun battle for some people (and his hp isn't nearly insane; it's about 5% of a Subterrane boss), but the problem is that character effectiveness in that quest is very unequal, and those characters who most want the Icy Rainment are also those least able to blast through the monsters to get there. The inequality is actually larger for reaching the boss than fighting him. (And note that the inequality was mostly created by changed metamagic rules in module 5, and I suspect that GoP was designed before that change was established)

I remember the first time I played GoP after module 5 came out... fighting the boss took at total of 20 seconds non-falling time. We were so baffled about what everyone had been complaining about.

[Borror0]

Subterrane is also a bad choice.

I know...

It's a fun battle for some people (and his hp isn't nearly insane; it's about 5% of a Subterrane boss)

It isn't pleasant with a non-WF melee character. Overall, the fight is more fustrating than challenging.

[Gunga]

Subterrane is also a bad choice.

Nah. I think it's a good way to keep it kickin down there. This is a great thread...I agree with most of ya.

[Maegin]

For all you who think its not challenging, quit wasting your uber time and r4pe the abbot for what its worth. I for one think its a good idea for some named loot to be down there. For all the trouble its worth to be down there, It would be nice to pull something exceptional, or atleast consistant.

For instance, and dont flame it, but what if they moved the bloodstone down there? or a better +8 version? or icy raiments? Only thought provoking, if not retorical. Food for thought.

On the flip side, the uber players work hard to be in their position. That being said, what if a bound ticket dropped that reduced the wait time by 1 day for other, either not so popular, or annoying reflaging, raids. So that atlest for all their hard work, they can be treated with the vip like status they worked so hard to ataine?

But to generalize uberness onto everyone, thus killing the excitement for the casual... well thats just messed up.

Or atleast make the chests +1

[sirgog]

That might be better than nothing, but overall would be inferior to the alternative of new loot in new/upgraded quests. (Particularly, upgrading some existing never-played quests like DOI and the like with level 16 mobs and named loot would be a superior way to add content). The Subteranne simply isn't a well-designed place for that kind of loot-hunting. (In fact, it's not really well-designed for any gameplay purpose, although as a prelude to Hound of Xoriat it isn't too bad).

Think about the Bloodstone in Sands of Menechetarum for example. When it was upgraded to be a really good item, gameplay was hurt because a big loot incentive was created to run out to one specific place over and over, recalling and resetting after each boring jog. Adding good loot to Subterrane would only be a little different, because from time to time you'd have to stop at a doorway to kill the couple mobs locking it.

In fact, because the Subterrane is a 12-man instance, adding good loot would be much worse than putting loot in any previous wilderness. The obstacles in the Subterrane simply aren't interesting for a 12-player team, or even 6 players. If there were good items there, obtaining them would be a matter of crowd-jogging... only a few players have to take actions to clear the way, while the majority of them are just along for the ride to mooch a chest in exchange for pressing the buttons to walk there.

Also, the addition of a new good loot to Ghosts of Perdition (Icy Rainment) must also be viewed as a big failure for what it did to gameplay.

The Raiment was a huge mistake, just because Dodge bonuses on items always are, and this is the biggest Dodge bonus yet. Someone at Turbine QA must have been smoking something pretty strong to let that pass.

But the Subterrane wilderness area is kinda fun if you have a non-twinked party in there. Grab a dozen of the kind of players that you don't want in your Shroud raids, and take them through the Subterrane, and you'll all have fun (except when someone falls at a bad time). The problem is that there's no in-game rewards making doing that worthwhile, so the area gets ignored. (Compare this to the Orchard, which has some pretty good rewards for running around in it, albeit little that interests powergamers).

[Venar]

Angelus.
I agree that new content would be better.
I also agree that the Subterrean is not the best choice.

But this thread is about reviving the subterreans.
The place is a lot bigger then people think. There are quite a few fun encounters in there, and some bosses that are harder to fight then some raid bosses... (like the red named devil).
Developement time went in there, and it feels wasted.

A good idea would be to make some items usefull for the raid...
Say, for exemple, the Son of Xizzy could drop a ring with Overun Immunity, Acid reists 30, and a thorn bush clicky.
Some other boss could drop a Greater Vermin Slayer repeater for the bats in VoD.
You get the idea.

Oh, and Naso24, you can charm undead in there, i do it all the time.

[Venar]

Another idea would be to put a rare crafting altar in there, very deep, with such recepies as:

1 Large Bone + 15 Blessed Candels + 12 Planar Shards = 1 Large Devil Scale...

[Angelus_dead]

But this thread is about reviving the subterreans.

Yes, the thread is indeed about reviving the Subteranne.

That makes this thread the perfect place to point out that reviving the Subterrane would be a bad idea. It has inherent flaws so that it cannot be really made into a good gameplay area without some major and creative changes. The flaws are rooted in the fact that D&D is a game for 4-6 players, and the balance works less well when you have 7-12.

If you added good named items to the Subterrane you'd create an incentive to go there, but that would not be a good increase to the fun of the game. What would happen is that you'd have an LFM for "Subterrane Looting", you'd go join and run around in 2 or 3 distinct groups finding chests and announcing them to the other members, who'd then swing around to pick it up when they're done wherever you are. The central technique would be that you're inside the Subterrane when the chests opens, so you can go get it later.

The only real change they should do to Subterrane is fix Barbazu teleporting to not create lag. They also may as well add a 2nd or 3rd chest to a couple of the bigger/rarer names... and then forget about Subterrane and spend their efforts on something useful.

[Naso24]

...


Oh, and Naso24, you can charm undead in there, i do it all the time.

Thank you for the correction. Looks like I will have to go in there again. I stand by the rest though - as currently implemented, not a cool area to explore, but it could be.

[Vorn]

I like the idea of non-uber but useful named items dropping in subterraine chests--add all the explorer zones to the list, though, not just the subterraine. Yes, it may create 'just another boring loot grind' but beyond the social interaction aspect of the game, there's not a lot going on right now beyond grinding ingredients, chattering rings, and hoping for +3 tomes. It's at least some variety from rez rings (some folks still do those despite shroud true rez clickies), planar girds, bloodstones, firestorm greaves, icey raiments (a terrible idea for a non-raid item imho, but much discussed elsewhere--probably should have gone in the abbot ), and a few others.

With no new high level content availble for a while it would at least give folks something else to do both in game and in the forums as they come to complain about the nature of the item or it's drop rate!

[Thrudh]

I like the collectable drop method like the tapestries better than named loot dropping in a particular chest....

In the desert people run to the bloodstone chests over and over.... boring...

In the orchard, people usually range through most of the orchard before recalling because EVERY chest has the potential to get you what you want (tapestries).

So I'd rather see another tapestry like collectable in the Subteranne with decent turn ins....

(AND maybe some named loot too I guess for the tougher named monsters)

[sirgog]

I like the collectable drop method like the tapestries better than named loot dropping in a particular chest....

In the desert people run to the bloodstone chests over and over.... boring...

In the orchard, people usually range through most of the orchard before recalling because EVERY chest has the potential to get you what you want (tapestries).

So I'd rather see another tapestry like collectable in the Subteranne with decent turn ins....

(AND maybe some named loot too I guess for the tougher named monsters)

Back when Tapestry running was still a good loot run, I used to just do the faster ones (run to DtOV via crypts, do all the tap points down there, then run up the east side of the Orchard to the waterfalls and hit those).

Of course, now instead when I want taps, I just run the Shroud once, sell all the loot I find except large ingredients, then I have (on average) enough plat to buy a new set of 20 taps for an alt - and I may have a large ingredient too if I'm lucky.

[Angelus_dead]

I like the collectable drop method like the tapestries better than named loot dropping in a particular chest....

Yes, the two important lessons from the Orchard:
1. Redeemable tokens lets every chest be valuable, instead of players carving a path to reach the single chest with the item they want over and over again.

2. Multiple positions for chests means players actually do so more exploration of the area, instead of checking one specific point again and again.