Named Loot in the subter would help the game A LOT

[Borror0]

But then it just means player would hope for the 2 named Renders that are on the path anyways, and you wont get more players in there.

Do you find farming for a Bloodstone enjoyable? Do you like exploring the Subterrane?

[Angelus_dead]

The subterrean has something unique: you can be 12 in there.

Yes, it can have 12 players. That's part of the problem.

When you take an area that's manageable by 4-5 and allow 7-8 extraneous characters to come in just to get more loot pulls, the fun of the game is decreased.

Suppose they added a couple good named things. The process of obtaining them would be for a scout team of bard + cleric + barb + sorc (or whatever is appropriate to blast through the path there) who run to the chest and see if it spawned. The other ~8 members of the raid group won't even bother to move until it does, unless they're just trying to be polite.

[Venar]

Hunting the subterrean? Yes actually, because it's challenging.

Bloodstone? No, it's mind boggling.
That is because it can be solo with my eyes closed. It is no challenge.
That is not the case in the sub. The fact that a loot run is boring is that you just grind it without effort.
Also, specific loot runs (Bloodstone) doesn't mean that named loot in outdoor is a failure. It means that there was a failure to create good loot.
Aside from the firegreaves, and the spell storing ring, the rest of the loot is junk.
If every chest in the desert had a chance of good loot in it, then people would do entire desert runs, which would be longer, more challenging, and closer to a real adventure.
The problem of the Bloodstone runs is not the Bloodstone. It is that it's too easy and too quick to run. (2 minutes)

Hunting the Sub is not easy for sure, so it can't be a "quick run".
So going there will always be an adventure. But every adventure needs a reward, in this case, a good chest.
The Small named dog needs you to: reach the eastern sub. Open the first 2 runes. Clear the entrance to the Deep Tunnels. Fight your way to the Den of the Beast. Defeat the Beast.
That is quite an adventure, more like a quest then a "loot run". So, why not some decent loot in it?

[Venar]

When you take an area that's manageable by 4-5 and allow 7-8 extraneous characters to come in just to get more loot pulls, the fun of the game is decreased.

Suppose they added a couple good named things. The process of obtaining them would be for a scout team of bard + cleric + barb + sorc (or whatever is appropriate to blast through the path there) who run to the chest and see if it spawned. The other ~8 members of the raid group won't even bother to move until it does, unless they're just trying to be polite.

I dont think you know the area too well.
The vast majority of the chests in there cannot be reached by a "scout team".
How many rare encounter in the EAST sub do you have? Oh? 2 out of 5 like everyone else? I thought so.
As for the Center sub, ever fought the Skelton Commander? The named Bazabu general? You randomly get them from activating bad runes. So, have fun running around in a scouting party spawning waves of devils from clicking bad runes.
I know i wouldnt tackle the red Bazabu with pikers. Heck, i seen Hound-raids whipe on the way from someone accidently spawning him.

[Angelus_dead]

I dont think you know the area too well.

Evidently I know it a lot better than you. In fact, it appears that I was the first player ever to get more than 100 planar shards.

As for the Center sub, ever fought the Skelton Commander? The named Bazabu general?

Yes, I've killed both as a duo without problems. One ranger smashes them, one cleric heals him. (The undead ones do take an excessive time to DPS down, but the skeleton king is a special case. His 200k+ hp take too long to chew through, but the scout team will call over the rest of the loot group as soon as you find the specially-colored portal. With 4+ players on him he won't last long)

The main function of the scout group is actually to see if the chest is there or not. Whether they can kill the named boss without waiting a minute or two for the other characters to arrive is not important. What matters is that the chest will only spawn ~33% of the time, so on 66% of runs the majority of players won't even have to move.

[Venar]

I wish you'd contradict yourself more.
Anyways, what if people just stay on and wait to see if chests are up? The same happens in the Desert and Vale everyday.

[Angelus_dead]

Anyways, what if people just stay on and wait to see if chests are up? The same happens in the Desert and Vale everyday.

Yes, it happens, and it's bad. Adding more of something bad is bad.

In some ways it would be less-bad in the Subterrane, because the paths of travel are more constricted so it's harder for players to run to a specific point by ignoring everything along the way. But in another way it's worse: being a 12-man zone instead of a 6-man zone means there's more opportunity for uninvolved players to accrue benefits just by being in the same instance.

[Samadhi]

I'd vote for this idea Venar. I remember back when the level cap was 10, thinking "wouldn't it be great if there were encounter areas like tempest spine, where if there are more than 6 guildies on, we can all go do something together just for fun. No flagging, just a big, empty, open raid." Now we have one, but interest in doing it is minimal because there is no incentive beyond the initial exploration. Once that curiosity is satisfied, what's the point?

To avoid it becoming another Bloodstone run, my suggestion would be that - whatever named loot was created - would have the potential to drop in EVERY named chest in the Subt. That way, the typical strategy would be to swing through the areas hitting ALL named that were spawned rather than the specific one dropping what "I" want.

This is essentially how Tap runs are usually done and, IMO, are much more fun.

[Vorn]

<snip>
Anyways, what if people just stay on and wait to see if chests are up? The same happens in the Desert and Vale everyday.

Yep, that's what quite a few folks do for firestorm greaves/bloodstones as well as the vale--the scale would just be expanded for the subterraine allowing more teams. It's pretty fun on a six person scale. I imagine it wouldn't be that different for 12--just haven't been able to persuade anyone to actually do it, even in guild, as they think the time invested vs. potential reward factor is too low for the subterraine. Splitting into smaller teams keeps the number of pikers at a minimum as everyone gets to do something for at least one encounter.

Still, I agree with A_D that in the long term, I would rather that they invest the most significent portion of their dev resources into new content rather than fix rides that although aren't great fun, at least aren't broken.

[Naso24]

...


Oh, and Naso24, you can charm undead in there, i do it all the time.

Thank you for the correction. Looks like I will have to go in there again. I stand by the rest though - as currently implemented, not a cool area to explore, but it could be.

[Naso24]

...

Still, I agree with A_D that in the long term, I would rather that they invest the most significent portion of their dev resources into new content rather than fix rides that although aren't great fun, at least aren't broken.

Here, we have an area that could be cool if desirable loot was added. I don't think it is too much to ask. Some others have even posted suggestions that are interesting without being outrageous. Hopefully a dev will read this thread and think wow, what a great idea, I'll bring that up with the team.

We can always dream...

[Venar]

I don't think something shouldn't be done because only 2 can do it and the rest gets the reward.
The entire game is like that!
Every quest can be short maned, and pikers can just loot the chest and end reward. The entire Reaver Raid is a pike fest for loot.
Seriously, everything can be done by a few while others profit, aside from a few exceptions.

To avoid it becoming another Bloodstone run, my suggestion would be that - whatever named loot was created - would have the potential to drop in EVERY named chest in the Subt. That way, the typical strategy would be to swing through the areas hitting ALL named that were spawned rather than the specific one dropping what "I" want.

Sam, the problem, if you do it that way is that people will just run the easiest chest and ignore the hard encounters.
A good UNBOUND loot on every chest is a nice incentive to check em all out.

[Borror0]

The entire Reaver Raid is a pike fest for loot.

It is not because something is like this that it's desirable.

[Yumzie]

i mean atleast put some decent items like:
banishers
archmagi's
w/p bows
or even just the little things

[Samadhi]

Sam, the problem, if you do it that way is that people will just run the easiest chest and ignore the hard encounters.
A good UNBOUND loot on every chest is a nice incentive to check em all out.

Are any of the encounters that disproportionately harder than others? If so, point conceded, so far they all seemed pretty equivalent in difficulty though from where I have been.

[Venar]

Well, some are just basically deeper and out of the way.

[Venar]

It is not because something is like this that it's desirable.

I dont see your point. This is not desirable? That the place is attractive enough that people will wanna hunt it?
So, um, from now on, we dont want any outdoor area, quests, chests, or any form of rewarding system unless it takes an effort from every single person in the party?
The entire argument you 2 are presenting is to push a moot point.
Yes, people can short man chests in the game, and more profit by this. Duh.

How is this of any revelence from the fact that the sub zone could be made more interresting with loot?
I know! Let's leave it like that so it's added to the already long list of places where nobody goes!
Seriously, you can't stop improving the game because some individual will try to abuse it.

[Borror0]

I dont see your point. This is not desirable? That the place is attractive enough that people will wanna

The Reaver is a snore fest for a lot of the party. Same would apply in the Subterrane. That is not desirable.

The encounters aren't balanced for a full raid group, but for maybe 4-5 average player. That's not fun. If they are going to invest efforts somewhere, might as well put it elsewhere rather than in making us re-run boring content. Say I offer you a choice, I put named loot in the end chest of Ghost of Perdition or in the end chest of Crucible, which do you pick?

[Angelus_dead]

The encounters aren't balanced for a full raid group, but for maybe 4-5 average player. That's not fun.

Note that a fairly simple way to deal with this would be to make an identical copy of the Subterrane as a 6-man instance, and only put the good items in there. However, they won't do that because they don't have a good way to explain and justify it. (And also because to do so would be an admission of failure)

[Venar]

The encounters aren't balanced for a full raid group, but for maybe 4-5 average player. That's not fun. If they are going to invest efforts somewhere, might as well put it elsewhere rather than in making us re-run boring content

Well, i guess this is where we disagree.
I do not think the encounters are that easy. A group of 4-5 average players? No. Maybe 4 elite guys, but not average.
The place is hard, most people get own trying to kill a single living Harm. Beholders stipping buffs, high level renders, hounds, mindflayers, orthons, barbazus... it's far from a bore fest. Mobs have crazy saves, crazy SR, heck, one guy in this thread complained that its too hard.
Even the easy encounters, like the Rander of Madness, would be a hard challenge for a 5 man team.
It's at least 1000x harder then the **** orange bosses we get in the other areas.
Rat Quimby VS Render of Madness. Who deserves named loot?
I find the place fun and challenging, and i would bring 8 to 10 people to comfomtably reach the rare in the eastern area.
BTW, dual WoP wielder are not average.