Your Perform Skill is Too Low to Perform this Song

[seldarin]

I agree with you there. Just to see, I created a new bard. The bard description and Perform skill don't mention anything about needing it to be maxed or that certain songs require certain ranks. To get to the actual prerequisites, you would need to finish your skills, then scroll down through the class-granted feats on the Feat screen and examine the actual bard song. That's a very cumbersome method, and I doubt anyone would actually bother doing that. Since bard songs are the only abilities in the game that have a skill requirement, they probably should have some kind of message or warning so that people that aren't familiar with the PnP rules wouldn't make that mistake.

There is an online compendium available to every class. Do you mean to say that you dont do any research on your character at all so that you know what you are getting at each lvl? Going down the path of asking for skill respecs because you (i mean you generically, not you specifically) dont/havent read the skill is for mine not called for. That would be the same as asking for an ability respec because you hadnt read the requirements for a feat and found out at lvl 10 that you couldnt get it because your dex was too low for one example. Same horse, different colour. I understand that it is a cumbersome process reading about a class, but to call for a respec because you havent read anything about it for me is just tough luck. May seem harsh, but why change a game mechanic because someone is lazy? You may not agree, but most people seldom do

[darkrune]

There is an online compendium available to every class. Do you mean to say that you dont do any research on your character at all so that you know what you are getting at each lvl? Going down the path of asking for skill respecs because you (i mean you generically, not you specifically) dont/havent read the skill is for mine not called for. That would be the same as asking for an ability respec because you hadnt read the requirements for a feat and found out at lvl 10 that you couldnt get it because your dex was too low for one example. Same horse, different colour. I understand that it is a cumbersome process reading about a class, but to call for a respec because you havent read anything about it for me is just tough luck. May seem harsh, but why change a game mechanic because someone is lazy? You may not agree, but most people seldom do

not to be a troll but dude we have a feat respec in house J. It would be nice to have the ability to fix skills that have no benefit or were changed (ie titan's balance check, cap on jump @ ~40, swim past 10) just like someone could swap out that power critical feat that they took at level 10 four mods ago cause it was new and cool... so if it is "same horse different color" then just give us "whiners" a skill respec that costs shards and millions of gold i am fine with that. I have 7 capped toons that i would repec in a heartbeat. and btw not a one of them is a 28pt build cause my original drow is my 1750 and i deleted/rerolled all the others already, so dont try to say reroll as i have no slots as is and dont feel like repeating 100+ raids on each toon.

[Grimdiegn]

I guess this is a case where being familiar with PnP helps. I wonder, is it "obvious" that a player should always max his bard's perform skill? Maybe it's not. Maybe Turbine needs to do a better job of making people aware up front, like the new warnings when you cross-class into a casting class and have a low casting stat.

Isn't this one of the reasons we are getting a char creator overhaul with the next mod?

skill respec / not signed

[Freeman]

There is an online compendium available to every class. Do you mean to say that you dont do any research on your character at all so that you know what you are getting at each lvl? Going down the path of asking for skill respecs because you (i mean you generically, not you specifically) dont/havent read the skill is for mine not called for. That would be the same as asking for an ability respec because you hadnt read the requirements for a feat and found out at lvl 10 that you couldnt get it because your dex was too low for one example. Same horse, different colour. I understand that it is a cumbersome process reading about a class, but to call for a respec because you havent read anything about it for me is just tough luck. May seem harsh, but why change a game mechanic because someone is lazy? You may not agree, but most people seldom do

You seem to have completely missed what I was saying. Your ability/feat analogy is flawed because if you don't have the ability requirement, the game won't let you take the feat. However, if a bard doesn't have enough ranks in Perform, they still gain the ability, but they can't use it. They get a message saying their Perform skill is too low, but at that point, it is too late to change it. No other class ability has this restriction on the use, with no way for the player to overcome it until they level again. If you multiclass into a spellcasting class, but your associated ability score is too low, you will get a warning. If you decide to proceed, you can equip an item and still be able to utilize those abilities. Bards are the only class that don't have that option for one of their primary abilities. The NPE may fix that problem for new players, but it is always possible for any player to make a mistake and forget to raise Perform. Also, if the NPE doesn't make it obvious why it is maxing the Perform skill, then players still may not learn why it is needed and make the same mistake later.

I also don't agree that someone is lazy just because they don't know every detail about every class in the game. Yes, the information is out there, but how reasonable is it to expect every player to thoroughly study both the compendium and the wiki before they actually create each character? My main suggestion was that it should be made much more apparent in the character creation process, to avoid mistakes like this. Others may have used this to say we need a skill respec, but I did not. I wanted better information up-front. There are other, better reasons than this to call for a skill respec. The changes to Balance and other skills make a far more convincing argument than this.

[Seacog]

I agree to the bard song warning from lack of points, but not with skill respec. They are working as intended <sorry someone had to say it> However, i have made a few bards in my time, and never really thought perform was so important, I would always ask, how high do i need my skill? to other bards and they would simply reply keep it as high as you can, you never know. So i did, but i never got that high really... I guess what i am saying, is I disagree with reroll, I disagree with "researching" your characters on the forums/spreadsheets, whatever, I take my time to PLAY the game and learn by trial+error, however i dont mind rerolling either...I DO agree their should be some better information for the perform skill perhaps so0mething along the lines of "Perform- This skill is required by bards to play high level songs" I don't really see it affecting any other class, and this description makes it seem far more important to me...

[seldarin]

You seem to have completely missed what I was saying. Your ability/feat analogy is flawed because if you don't have the ability requirement, the game won't let you take the feat. However, if a bard doesn't have enough ranks in Perform, they still gain the ability, but they can't use it. They get a message saying their Perform skill is too low, but at that point, it is too late to change it. No other class ability has this restriction on the use, with no way for the player to overcome it until they level again. If you multiclass into a spellcasting class, but your associated ability score is too low, you will get a warning. If you decide to proceed, you can equip an item and still be able to utilize those abilities. Bards are the only class that don't have that option for one of their primary abilities. The NPE may fix that problem for new players, but it is always possible for any player to make a mistake and forget to raise Perform. Also, if the NPE doesn't make it obvious why it is maxing the Perform skill, then players still may not learn why it is needed and make the same mistake later.

I also don't agree that someone is lazy just because they don't know every detail about every class in the game. Yes, the information is out there, but how reasonable is it to expect every player to thoroughly study both the compendium and the wiki before they actually create each character? My main suggestion was that it should be made much more apparent in the character creation process, to avoid mistakes like this. Others may have used this to say we need a skill respec, but I did not. I wanted better information up-front. There are other, better reasons than this to call for a skill respec. The changes to Balance and other skills make a far more convincing argument than this.

I didnt miss your point at all. My points were mostly directed at those that as you pointed out immediately jumped on the skill respec band wagon. And as you would have seen in at least one of my posts about skill descriptions, ie heal, which can be seen by holding the mouse over the particular skill PRIOR to selecting it. I dont expect/think that everyone would go to the compendium etc. My point was that if you havent, dont go on about a skill respec, and no im not directing that at you as you have stated you arent looking for a skill respec.

As to my abilitly/feat example, i know that if you dont have the pre reqs, you cant select it. My point there was, that if you were planning a character and were going to take the TWF tree for example, but didnt have 17 Dex, which i think is the prereq for ITWF, or it might be 15, and you get the lvl where you want to take it, but cant because you didnt know, then the scenario of an ability respec would be the same ideal as a skill respec.

Granted a little box popping up saying you dont have the bits you need to use your ability would be handy, but reading up on the class you are creating would be too. That was all i was saying, bit of preemptive work can save grief later on.

Skill respec, definite no, and im all for no feat respecs too, unless its something that has changed as a result of changes to the game. But im just the minority.

[Seacog]

As an afterthought, I am torn on Feat respeccing. If you actually make a mistake in your feat selection, its nice you can change it, but some people plan to change them as they get higher so they can do certain things better, and for this i frown. As an example, a barbarian while working its way up the ranks might be two weapon fighting, but when he hits shroud levels, he respecs feats for dual fighting and grabs khopeshs.... so for this i don't like it. But it's hard to police...do i agree with it? No. Do I like it, Yes.... do i feel it needs to be implemented for skills? NO..definatly not. Also i for one like the way listen works... not as good as spot, but my barb can often "see" stealthed mobs as they move with the little noise marker at their feet...

[Freeman]

I think the game needs feat respecs, simply because the game changes. Feats that were great when the level cap was only ten may have lost their luster now that the level cap is sixteen. Many parts of the game have been tweaked/adjusted as well. Feats that sound good in theory turn out to be practically worthless.(How many clerics took Improved Turning?) For a long time, the in-game tips and descriptions of feats, abilities, and skills were often misleading or completely wrong.(Remember how jump reduces falling damage?) As long as the game is constantly shifting, I think the players need a way to react to those shifts.

So far, there haven't been any changes in ability requirements, so I don't see any reason to offer a respec of those. There have been several changes to skills, however, that you could argue would warrant a skill respec. Balance was the most notable example. However, it has now been approximately two years since that change was implemented, and I don't think there have been any major changes in any of the skills since then.(Perform was changed, but it was actually changed to match the description. The description itself was always correct) Until there is another major change to a skill, I don't think a respec is warranted. If they do change the way one works, then I think they should offer a respec at that time.

[Maegin]

I think the game needs feat respecs, simply because the game changes. Feats that were great when the level cap was only ten may have lost their luster now that the level cap is sixteen. Many parts of the game have been tweaked/adjusted as well. Feats that sound good in theory turn out to be practically worthless.(How many clerics took Improved Turning?) For a long time, the in-game tips and descriptions of feats, abilities, and skills were often misleading or completely wrong.(Remember how jump reduces falling damage?) As long as the game is constantly shifting, I think the players need a way to react to those shifts.

So far, there haven't been any changes in ability requirements, so I don't see any reason to offer a respec of those. There have been several changes to skills, however, that you could argue would warrant a skill respec. Balance was the most notable example. However, it has now been approximately two years since that change was implemented, and I don't think there have been any major changes in any of the skills since then.(Perform was changed, but it was actually changed to match the description. The description itself was always correct) Until there is another major change to a skill, I don't think a respec is warranted. If they do change the way one works, then I think they should offer a respec at that time.

This is by far the most accurate dipiction of what makes this game so great and versatile in the first place. As opposed to being stuck to permanent decisions, the game, in time, shapes its way to ajust to changing times, just like in life or your pnp adventures. Nicely put man.

[Maegin]

Also i for one like the way listen works... not as good as spot, but my barb can often "see" stealthed mobs as they move with the little noise marker at their feet...

And the same reason why you can pick out a persons location, based of sound alone. Think along the lines of a bats sonar.
And the same reason why invisibility, in my opinon, makes sense the way it is. Can't see ya, but can still find ya with listen ^_^

[Zenako]

And the same reason why you can pick out a persons location, based of sound alone. Think along the lines of a bats sonar.
And the same reason why invisibility, in my opinon, makes sense the way it is. Can't see ya, but can still find ya with listen ^_^

Which is why when really trying to stealth, the Greater Silent Moves Robe goes on...Not as many things help the Move Silently number as can help the Hide number.

[Hafeal]

... it has now been approximately two years since that change was implemented, and I don't think there have been any major changes in any of the skills since then ... I don't think a respec is warranted. If they do change the way one works, then I think they should offer a respec at that time.

Well, as I said earlier in this thread, I would disagree with this sentiment. Just off the top of my head, within the last two years, the devs have made game-affecting changes to diplomacy, bluff, concentration and swim. You could throw in almost all the skills actually - especially for pnp players who went for a more "balanced" approach to their characters without realizing they should not do so.

I think a skill respec is absolutely the right thing to do.

Requiring people to re-roll characters, in my opinion, shows a lack of respect for the time people put into raising characters up, especially for casual players who cannot put long hours into the game.

We already give players the opportunity to fix their "mistakes" with feats AND enhancements; skills should be on the list too; even if it is only a one-time shot per character.

[Freeman]

Well, as I said earlier in this thread, I would disagree with this sentiment. Just off the top of my head, within the last two years, the devs have made game-affecting changes to diplomacy, bluff, concentration and swim. You could throw in almost all the skills actually - especially for pnp players who went for a more "balanced" approach to their characters without realizing they should not do so.

I know they changed the cooldown timers for Diplomacy and Bluff, making them more useful, but they still functioned the same way from what I can recall. Have they been changed in some other way? I also don't remember when those changes were made, but it was also probably close to the two year mark now. To my knowledge, Swim and Concentration haven't changed since the game went live. What about these skills are you referring to in support of a skill respec? I'm not really sure what you mean by the last sentence I quoted.

[Hafeal]

I know they changed the cooldown timers for Diplomacy and Bluff, making them more useful, but they still functioned the same way from what I can recall. Have they been changed in some other way? I also don't remember when those changes were made, but it was also probably close to the two year mark now. To my knowledge, Swim and Concentration haven't changed since the game went live. What about these skills are you referring to in support of a skill respec? I'm not really sure what you mean by the last sentence I quoted.

I think the key is "making them useful" v. function. When you actually make a game element useful, when it was not so, to me, it is game-changing.

When I started playing my cleric, there were no concentration checks. Apparently, not working as intended. They then, and I cannot recall the point, made concentration checks necessary. I know many a caster who did not put points into concentration as actual game play made it pointless to do so. Swim was not a useful skill until the Crucible and several later quests (imagine if they finally include underwater combat?). Bluff and Diplomacy were rarely used by players due to game timers - actually changing the timers to make the skill viable in practical play is a BIG change.

Asking players to put points into skills "because, someday, at some unknown point, the devs might decide to make the skills important - maybe, maybe not, in accordance with whatever ruleset may be in place at that time" is a flimsy reason to avoid a system of skill respecs. As this is also a game, with the intent and desire to bring a sense of fun and enjoyment to players, "punishing them" is an inappropriate response, in my opinion.

[Freeman]

I think the key is "making them useful" v. function. When you actually make a game element useful, when it was not so, to me, it is game-changing.

When I started playing my cleric, there were no concentration checks. Apparently, not working as intended. They then, and I cannot recall the point, made concentration checks necessary. I know many a caster who did not put points into concentration as actual game play made it pointless to do so. Swim was not a useful skill until the Crucible and several later quests (imagine if they finally include underwater combat?). Bluff and Diplomacy were rarely used by players due to game timers - actually changing the timers to make the skill viable in practical play is a BIG change.

Asking players to put points into skills "because, someday, at some unknown point, the devs might decide to make the skills important - maybe, maybe not, in accordance with whatever ruleset may be in place at that time" is a flimsy reason to avoid a system of skill respecs. As this is also a game, with the intent and desire to bring a sense of fun and enjoyment to players, "punishing them" is an inappropriate response, in my opinion.

I said that if they were to make any changes now, I think they should offer a skill respec. I can't recall when they changed the Bluff/Diplo timers, but I think that was around the Titan timeframe. I don't recall Concentration ever not working, but if so, it was definitely a bug. They never changed the description, they just made it work the way it was supposed to. I don't think fixing bugs should be a justification for a skill respec. I've never run with any casters that didn't have Concentration myself. The release notes only go back about a year and a half, and none of these changes were covered in that time frame.

Swim has always worked the same. They haven't made the skill do anything differently. Swim isn't any more useful now than it was before, since as far as I know, Crucible is the only place where it can make a difference. I haven't heard of anyone recommending points be allocated to it on the basis of a couple of quests where it might come in handy. By the same logic, every time a new quest is released where one skill can make things easier, that would be grounds to grant every character a complete skill respec? When Reaver was released, Tumble became more useful, since it reduced the falling damage from Reverse Gravity. When Shroud was released, people with Jump had an easier time with the puzzles. There are many quests where Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are useful for dialogue choices that can make the quest easier. Making a quest where a particular skill is useful doesn't justify giving people the opportunity to max out that skill until the next quest comes along.

As I said before, if they make any changes to the way they work now, I think they should also add the ability to respec to adjust for those changes. However, I don't think changes from two years ago are enough to warrant introducing the skill respec alone. It isn't that they aren't valid reasons, just not enough to support the decision by themselves. Now, there are other good arguments in favor of skill respecs, such as allowing an opportunity for new players to correct mistakes without rerolling or for people to correct mistakes they made while leveling.(Such as the bard in this instance) If it is technically feasible, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually offered some form of skill respec. However, I do hope they place some limits on it.

[SynfoolaCMT]

Meh...I think that if you're going to develop a game where certain things are permanent, then you should make sure that your ability info that you present to players is as informative and accurate as possible. A situation like this as the OP describes is one of several examples of how that isn't happening here.

Having to go outside of the game to be aware of something like this isn't a talking point for the fanbois to cluck, "well you shoulda". It's a design flaw. So the choices are either fix the issue or offer a stop-gap measure like skill-point respecs. I'd rather have the former but will settle for the latter.

Pretty much all I have to say in this thread. Hope something comes of it no matter what.

[toughguyjoe]

Seldarin is correct. The song Inspire Heroics requires 18 "ranks" in the Perform skill. 'Ranks' are the number of skill points you put into the skill when leveling up. Your total Perform skill includes any modifiers from Charisma, perform skill items, and other bonuses from spell or potions. At level fifteen you can only have a total of 18 'ranks' in Perform or any other skill (15 + 3, per PHB).

If it makes you feel any better, when I hit level 15 with my bard right after the level cap was raised I forgot to put a rank into Perform and couldn't use Inspire Heroics until level 16 when I made up the difference.

See the attached image to understand where the 'Ranks' column is in the Skills display.

I dunno if anyone did it before me, because i'm in a slight rush to get out the door but..


NOOB!




You know i don't mean it but..gotta throw a noobsauce comment out there