Surprized by the continued bias against rogues

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm late in coming to this thread, but generally here is the bias against Rogues...

1) Too squishy for really tough fights (sadly this mostly true)
2) their AC is too low (yet another disappointing problem)
3) they have weaker DPS than other classes (also true, but far from the worst)
4) there is an incredible abundance of poorly played/built rogues out there, and by level 10 who wants another one in group that can barely kill something and have problems with all the traps (also very sad and true, especially in the level 3-8 range)
5) Rogues slow the party down (Unfair, but some truth in it since DD and search animations are soooo slow)
6) if the rogue isn't built poorly or knows whats going on, they generally want to prove how uber they are (I'm guilty of this at times, so sorry )
7) there is usually a "better option" for a party than a rogue because of #1-6 in the eyes of someone running the party.
8) And here's the kicker, not having a Rogue usually has no effect on a party whatsoever because we are only needed for looting certain chests.
9) it is the hardest class to build for a powerful end game build, and incredibly loot reliant claass. (like there's any class that doesn't rely on loot...*sigh)
10) the party leader never could figure out how to play one and is biased. (only you can change this by teaching them rogues don't ruin a party)

As far as a Rogues' benfits, I think those have been covered pretty well. How do you fix the above problems? I have no idea.

1. This is only partially true. Even if relying only on a high diplomacy, that tactic alone can go a long way to surving and dominating in even the toughest of fights.

2. Their AC should at least be average. And can be very high if the players builds for it. And is probably higher than barbs and Sorcs.

3. Uhm.....that SA damage is very high. Granted there is more to DPS, but again, if you build them for it they can dish it out.

4. true.....sad but true.

5. They can. But don't have to. Actually, my rogue feels like the party's expectations of me to disable traps slows me down. I have evasion, I can just run through the traps and kill......I'm sacrificing my kill count to help out the rest of the party. funny just like in RL, people dont appreciate it when you do them a favor.

6. True....it's why I'm posting here in fact. And my Rogue is very agressive about getting a high kill count for exactly that reason.
Mine has a lot of weaknesses, but dealing out high SA DPS is not one of them.

7. Not sure how to answer, that is a personal decision really. But even when not talking about rogues, I think people need to open their minds to what other classes can do. I don't buy the perfect party mix line of thought.

8. Affects them slightly, but only on certain quests.

9. Casters are easy. Only need a high casting ability score really. Everyone else takes effort.

10. true

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you intend rogues are a burden, that's simply not true. If you mean they have to stop and do the traps, that's rather a ridiculous argument. The rogues does not have to stop at the trap. There is no 'disable the trap or the rogue dies'. If you don't want the rogue to do the trap, just let him know.

The rest has been covered by Aesop.

Just remembered, I was doing Maze of madness recently and made a joke about the traps slowing me down and taking away from my DPS. the cleric stated it was my choice to disable them, but I would be the person throwing the levers and taking damage.

I disabled most of them, but at one point I stated I was just going to throw the lever cause I was tired of taking all that time to disabale thr traps....

Well that particualr trap did not go off next to the levers where i was......it went of farther away in the exact spot the rest of the party was standing! Sorc got incapped, and I was franctically apologising (through my laughter).........
I felt bad, but it was so funnny!

[Narwe]

Most of the damage the pit boss deals to the non-evasion melee's is ( I think) from his dbf's. A decent hp rogue (or 10 rogue/6 ranger in my case with 266hp) is very survivable. Yesterday on my 18th shroud my protect from fire lasted the entire battle in part 5 meleeing him. That means improved evasion is negating almost all of this attack. Make sure you have fire resist/protect, neut. poison, stoneskin, greater fort item (M.Legens helm). You'll do fine. Get some silver weapons, holy, pure good, greater evil outsider bane, lawful outsider, etc.

Keep in mind, total damage = swings per minute X damage per swing. 2 hand weapons in the hands of a barbarian do huge damage per swing but greater 2-weapon fighting gets more swings per minute (each with 6d6 or 8d6 sneak attack in many cases). The barb's keep getting the aggro because they do more on an individual swing, but both classes do massive total damage. Then the barb's get wacked and dbf'd (poor clerics)! Improved evasion is a wonderful thing in there!

In part 4 I melee him till the blades get close, back out and many shot him with bow strength added (sneak too if close enough). Our group almost one rounded him recently.

GTWF with greater construct banes does a lot of damage to the portals. Dont be shy you rogues, get some greater banes and wack away. Even casters can deal decent damage to those portals with a greater bane (or dual wielded banes, only miss the portals on a 1). If some spawns show up and start to dance, switch weapons and teach them a lesson.

Evasion characters make the fire elemental in parts 4,5 much easier on the healers.

If groups don't want your rogue, it's their loss (unless you are poorly built or run or just having a bad day).

[Aerendil]

I blame it all on the Numbnut Min-Maxers in the game. Zergalholics. Speed Runs. Just about all classes have a pigeon-hole they're jammed into.
Just looking at all the builds here that incorporate a Paladin Aura, a Ranger's Barkskin and various Cleric and Arcane buffs into their standard AC, to hit and HP, they "have" to get those things in order to be effective. So, they regulate everyone to a role based on the character class that is shown - usually nothing else. People who run through the traps just annoy me as well - 15 seconds to save some HP too much to ask?

"Oh, the cleric will patch us up." "My arse, I'm still on this side of the trap waiting for the rogue to make it safe, PLUS, I'm saving my SP for Destruction, Slay Living and Harm. Shoulda let the Rogue disarm the trap, drink a potion."

Personally, when on my Ranger... I am a Rogue. When on my Sorc or Wiz or Cleric, I have much Rogue Luvs. When on my fighter... eh... more loot always good. My up and coming Fighter/Rogue I'm not sure about yet... probably love a real skilz rogue, cause he is all assassin. My future battle Cleric ... woah...

Agreed 100%.
It's been my experience that most people would rather do speed runs and/or min-max these days.
And, to some extent, I can understand that mentality. If this is your umpteenth character, and you're keen on levelling as fast as humanly possible, and can blunder your way through a quest, triggering every trap you come across, and get (for example) 3000 xp in 30min time VS. taking your time, disarming traps, finding all the secret areas etc. and earning an extra 1000 xp, but doubling the time it takes to finish the mission..... then it's obviously more efficient to go with option #1.
More fun? Not in my eyes. I'm more of a "leave no stone untouched" kind of person, and will happily go slowly through the mission because not everyone in the group may have run this dungeon 13950175 times already and would like to actually get to know the area, rather than storm through it.

But I think I'm in a small % of the DDO population :/

[Feylina]

idk. i play on thelanis and i've never had a problem getting into a party. i'm a finesse build 2 off max int build for assasinates. sure i don't have the dps of a str rogue or a ranger or barb but i do have my utility.

banishing, vorpaling (twf), w/p or w/e. smiting etc. and with 2 pos/pos rapiers (still crafting my radiant / lightning strike) my damage is decent on most red names combined with the sneak damage (pure 16 rogue atm). and not to mention the really nice assasinates. i love my rogue .

[TreknaQudane]

idk. i play on thelanis and i've never had a problem getting into a party. i'm a finesse build 2 off max int build for assasinates. sure i don't have the dps of a str rogue or a ranger or barb but i do have my utility.

banishing, vorpaling (twf), w/p or w/e. smiting etc. and with 2 pos/pos rapiers (still crafting my radiant / lightning strike) my damage is decent on most red names combined with the sneak damage (pure 16 rogue atm). and not to mention the really nice assasinates. i love my rogue .

And this thread also ended near nine months ago, what you experience now is not related to the topic at hand, unless you're a really slow leveler.

[drachine]

the thing is, if someone doesn't want a rogue in their group, its their call. i have learned over time that if they don't want me in their group, bottom line is, i don't want to be in their group. the rogue prejudice is very common one, but i think it is slowly diminishing. more and more people are learning how to play rogues well which is challenging because many rogues to be honest are idiots.

a perfect example is i was running favor on my wizard who is 5th level wizard/1st level rogue. and yes she can find and disable some traps but i have not spec'd her to do this. i want nothing to do with traps really. the rogue in our party did nothing regarding the traps. and honestly, i think rogues are best at dps, but if there is a rogue in the party i expect him to be prepared to take down traps on elite. traps killed me twice in the run and i knew where they were. i was trying to disable them because he did nothing even when i asked twice.

also the ones who actually did try to disable traps on elite were not using fox's cunning and heroism pots which adds +4 to your disable and no intel item. on elite, traps are deadly at level 6 and i expect for any rogue i invite to work on getting the best gear. many just don't care at all.

so in a sense, rogues deserve the bad rap spimply because many players frankly don't know what they are doing and don't bother to learn either. they blame blown traps on rolling a 1 which is stupid because if your disable is what it should be a 1 does not matter. you won't blow it.

even as a player who plays 5 rogues, i am reluctant to invite a rogue i do not know into my party. its a risky play. and yes, there are equally bad tanks out there. probably more bad tanks then bad rogues, but for whatever reason, the game is more foregiving of bad tanks or bad casters even. in my opinion, a bad caster is the worst. always pulling aggro and getting killed because their spells draw all attention to them. a good caster is versatile and so is a good rogue.

there are also bad clerics out there, but again, people will forgive them more.

solution, form your own groups and kick people out you don't like. send tells to get people to join. that's what i do and that way i have complete control over who does what for the most part and if i want to kick someone out, i will find a way to do it usually. it takes more work, but i get the stuff done in the game i need to do like favor and so forth.

[epochofcrepuscule]

Alright folks-I am going to shorten this thread up substantially.

Rogues are like monks-people accept those that they know-by name- to be good players since they know they wont make a worthless piece of junk. If you do not like this fact, go play a MMO where these classes are more desired.

The faults for the most rogues have been laid out many times in this thread, so you are an exception-good for you. Make a name for yourself, that's the "reality" of the game. If you don't like it-I hear WoW is always looking for subscribers and they even have ways to net you 300% xp boost while you are lvling!

[SableShadow]

Meh, not worth it.

[kamimitsu]

Meh, not worth it.

Awwwww. Inquiring minds want to know!

[SableShadow]

Awwwww. Inquiring minds want to know!

Tired of non-rogue players coming into rogue threads to "tell 'em how it is".

[Borror0]

Rogues are like monks-people accept those that they know

Don't insults rogues like that.

Rogues have always been a very powerful class in capable hands, even though they suffered for many issues. In Module 9, chances are that this will be truer than ever. The 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 monk build will most likely be among the top builds if not the most powerful.

We can't say that about monks.

Monks are the weakest class in DDO as it stands now, and that is why most players only let friendly monks join their party. If people hesitate to invite rogues to their group is that rogues are horrible in the hands of incompetent players but deadly in the right hands. Monks, however, gets invite only by friends because they are your friends and not because monks are a deadly class in the right hands.

Similar symptoms but totally different cause.

If you don't like it-I hear WoW is always looking for subscribers and they even have ways to net you 300% xp boost while you are lvling!

As we can see, it is good design and you give good advices.

Not.

[cdemeritt]

And this thread also ended near nine months ago, what you experience now is not related to the topic at hand, unless you're a really slow leveler.

Funny you say this.... I actually took a 7 month break about 8 months ago..... So my rogue is still about where he was at the time... Ok, I could have capped him by now if I really wanted, but I've been working on my Barb, and a Solo WF Wiz/Rogue. I will get back to him sooner or later. I did run him on a mostly guild run through Maze of madness, and let the lvl 5/5 rogue splash deal with the traps while I tanked. it was a lot of fun, and out killed the rest of the party, and I don't think I was too much for the cleric to handle. I was surprised to see this thread was still around.

[Noctus]

Funny you say this.... I actually took a 7 month break about 8 months ago..... So my rogue is still about where he was at the time... Ok, I could have capped him by now if I really wanted, but I've been working on my Barb, and a Solo WF Wiz/Rogue. I will get back to him sooner or later. I did run him on a mostly guild run through Maze of madness, and let the lvl 5/5 rogue splash deal with the traps while I tanked. it was a lot of fun, and out killed the rest of the party, and I don't think I was too much for the cleric to handle. I was surprised to see this thread was still around.

Yeah, some people keep on necroing this thing......

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Yeah, some people keep on necroing this thing......

that's 'cause the bias continues....

Saw one last night, Crucible LFM, party of 4, had a Fighter, Ranger, Sorc, Cleric so far. They did not want a rogue or monk. Isn't a high reflex/evasion char kind of nice to have for the Crucible?? Or am I missing something here.

[Vivanto]

There's a bias against rogues? ^^

[Kalari]

hehe I admit im coming late to this but being a part of guilds were most if not all of us have rogues I find it funny how anyone cannot see their potential. traps aside because my splashes get traps fine. Anyone who builds a rogue that cannot kill has wasted the classes potential. I know many rogues who go up against beholders like they are kobolds and take them down just as quickly.

I am shocked by any lfm's not looking for rogues and many times when im on thats exactly what the lfm's are calling for. So dunno maybe its just the servers I frequent but rogues definitely are viable members of any party I put together.

[Deusxmachina]

Yeah, some people keep on necroing this thing......

Eh, why not.

I tried to get my rogue into a few harbor/market groups yesterday. Denied. They wanted DPS. I then joined a Stormcleave (I think on Hard) group of all fighters/paladins/rangers and one cleric. I don't know if kill counts mean much or not, but I do know at the end I had like 80 and the next guy had about 35. They were all level 8-9. I was level 6.

Of course, the main thing is that I popped the locked chests. ka-ching!

[enochiancub]

I hate statements like this when will people learn kill count means nothing.

Agreed, whats the friggen deal with this kill count nonsense? I got friggen booted from a team on my rogue for contributing too much to the darned kill count. So seriously, someone lay some knowledge down on this.

Since when did kill count matter?

[tinyelvis]

Well, Sort of anyways.
I just need to vent. It is amazing to me that I can get my sorcerer into a shroud easier than I can get my rogue into a party sometimes......

In a very subtle way, your first sentence really answers your question. Why do parties only advertise for 1 or 2 rogues or sorcerers if that? A rogue or sorc for that matter well played can easily put out top level damage in any quest or raid. Every shroud should include at least 4 sorcerers, and at least as many well played rogues could be included. The answer is that everyone running rogues and sorcerers do not play them very well. In fact, the majority of people don't. If you invite 4 sorcs into your party, you will be lucky to get one who performs above mediocre ability. The same can be said for rogues.

Rogues and Sorcs require a lot of experience and knowledge to play well. People have been burnt too many times by the masses of poorly played rogues and sorcerers (myself included).