Surprized by the continued bias against rogues

[drachine]

i'm not surprised many people still don't want rogues in their groups for the following reasons:

1. most people simply lack imagination. rogues attract people with imagination and repel those without it.
2. requires thought and skill to play and implement into a party and most people (see above) don't care or want to think about that.
3. the high skill level makes it common to find players who do not know how to build one AND further don't know how to play them giving the class a bad rap. if you don't know a rogue, why would you trust the person playing them did a good job rolling them and knows how to play. you are taking a big risk. while many are willing to risk a bad cleric, a rogue, not so much.
4. zerg mentality dictates most hit points, tankage and support of the first two are the only valid reasons.
5. the traps and locks in the game are not really dangerous enough to warrant. i personally liked it when you could not get through the traps in STK because the devs turned them up, but all the zergers moaned so urbine complied.

honestly, i have thought about leaving the game because the rogue requires imagination and DDO offers little for the class to explore that and have shown absolutely no hope it will change in the future.

[geezee]

There are some good reasons why most people dont want rogues in their groups.

The underlying problem is that rogue is the most underpowered class in DDO. 3/4 melee, with no casting ability. Compare this to a cleric, which is 3/4 melee with full casting ability. Or bards, which are 3/4 melee, 3/4 casting and with songs. Don't ask me why the devs have imbalanced the rogue class so badly, but it's a fact of life in DDO. Of course, there are good players who can make up for this handicap. But this is a function of their abilities, in spite of the fundamental disadvantages of the class.

Besides this basic problem of the rogue class, is the problem of the way most people build and play their rogues. Typically, when a rogue joins the party in DDO it is a character with low STR and low hit points. This is a problem for a character who can't cast spells. Obviously, when well-played and in the right situation, a rogue can do more melee damage than any other class. But when you need someone to take down portals or help tank the pit fiend, what can the average rogue really do?

What makes this problem worse is that in the end game, things like sneak attacks, stealth, and critical hits become less useful. These are the mainstays of the rogue class, the reason to play a rogue instead of a fighter.

Put this all together, and you have a well-justified fear in the DDO community that most rogues really will not help the party as much as any of the other classes.

[kamimitsu]

There are some good reasons why most people dont want rogues in their groups.

The underlying problem is that rogue is the most underpowered class in DDO. 3/4 melee, with no casting ability. Compare this to a cleric, which is 3/4 melee with full casting ability. Or bards, which are 3/4 melee, 3/4 casting and with songs. Don't ask me why the devs have imbalanced the rogue class so badly, but it's a fact of life in DDO. Of course, there are good players who can make up for this handicap. But this is a function of their abilities, in spite of the fundamental disadvantages of the class.

Besides this basic problem of the rogue class, is the problem of the way most people build and play their rogues. Typically, when a rogue joins the party in DDO it is a character with low STR and low hit points. This is a problem for a character who can't cast spells. Obviously, when well-played and in the right situation, a rogue can do more melee damage than any other class. But when you need someone to take down portals or help tank the pit fiend, what can the average rogue really do?

What makes this problem worse is that in the end game, things like sneak attacks, stealth, and critical hits become less useful. These are the mainstays of the rogue class, the reason to play a rogue instead of a fighter.

Put this all together, and you have a well-justified fear in the DDO community that most rogues really will not help the party as much as any of the other classes.

Since I don't know how to do the pretty "my comments in red" thing, let me take exception to some of the above in a more traditional way:

Rogues can't cast, that's absolutely true. And we have 3/4 melee progression, also true. However, many rogues go the DEX route and paired with Weapon Finesse, flanking enhancements, etc. we have plenty of pluses to help there. I very seldom miss swinging with my rogue. Do I need another person around to ensure my maximum damage output? Absolutely... but I don't think that's asking much in a team oriented game. That really is the only 'right situation' necessary to get the most out of your rogue. Rogues are party people; put me next to another melee character and we'll both shine. Casting isn't much of an issue in that we don't need offensive casting (DPS out the wazoo... 'more damage than any other class', I believe you said) and defensive casting can be *mostly* covered with UMD (heal scrolls, raise dead, stoneskin, cure serious, etc.)

You asked what the average rogue can really do in regard to tanking the pit fiend and taking down portals. Well for portals, I conserve casters SP and keep melee types from bothering with trash mobs. How do I do that? I kill the first and/or second trog that comes out of the portal. The caster FoDs anything else, if he so chooses, as I can take the 3rd too (it just takes a bit longer). I had 42 kills in Shroud 1 in my last run, and two happy casters (your mileage may vary, if your casters are kill count egomaniacs). I'm not trying to brag- the Sorcs could easily out-kill me. But SP management is a lot easier when your party isn't relying on you to FoD everything that pours out. If I really wanted to help out, I could respec for Wrack Construct, and hit the portal a few times first, but I'm too lazy for that.

As for the pit fiend: I tank him, and I have 244 HP (not a whole lot). It's easy enough to stay behind him in Part 3, where not dying is of ultimate importance. With dual transmuters I do as much DPS as my barbarian does. I'm not sure if the fiend's fortification is 50 or 75, but I seem to get more Sneak Attack hits than not. I've netted the final blow quite a few times (meaning I'm likely doing as much DPS as anyone else). Part 4 is a not much different... yes I usually die once, or possibly twice. But a raise or two is not a big deal in Part 4.

Critical hits are less important in end game? I completely disagree. Banishing, smiting, and stat damage all depend on critical hits. It's at end game that one-shot killing is MORE important that DPS. Why knock the monster down 700hp, when I can just smite it after 4-5 hits? Can't banish or smite, then I'll stat damage him to zero in a few hits. Sneak attack and stealth useless? Stealth, I'll grant you, is not entirely useful aside from soloing... except when the party nearly wipes and needs someone to collect stones. Then it's awfully useful (assuming all the capped folks don't release and come back). Sneak attack damage is ALWAYS useful. DPS is the only thing to concern yourself with when fighting Red-names. Rogues can do that, very well.

Party people, that's what rogues are. Versatility is what defines us, as we can fill many niches. I don't know if any other group has pulled an single-class shroud run (rangers maybe?) but feat that makes a compelling argument for the all-around effectiveness of the rogue class. A decent rogue isn't an ace in the hole... he's a joker.

Shiz

[geezee]

What I meant by crits are less important in the end game is that a lot of mobs are immune.

The great thing about finesse builds, which is the norm for rogues these days, is that you rarely miss. The downside is that you don't do much straight up damage. Put this finesse build in a place full of undead or other sneak and/or crit immune mobs, and you have a character who really isnt contributing much.

I know a lot of people will get their panties in a bunch when confronted with the fact that their character is not effective in certain situations. But this is the reason nobody is jumping over buildings to get a rogue for most quests.

[ArkoHighStar]

What I meant by crits are less important in the end game is that a lot of mobs are immune.

The great thing about finesse builds, which is the norm for rogues these days, is that you rarely miss. The downside is that you don't do much straight up damage. Put this finesse build in a place full of undead or other sneak and/or crit immune mobs, and you have a character who really isnt contributing much.

I know a lot of people will get their panties in a bunch when confronted with the fact that their character is not effective in certain situations. But this is the reason nobody is jumping over buildings to get a rogue for most quests.

yes but many aren't immune to sneak attack damage with the exception of constructs and undead

[Borror0]

What I meant by crits are less important in the end game is that a lot of mobs are immune.

The great thing about finesse builds, which is the norm for rogues these days, is that you rarely miss. The downside is that you don't do much straight up damage. Put this finesse build in a place full of undead or other sneak and/or crit immune mobs, and you have a character who really isnt contributing much.

You still play Module 5?

[geezee]

I dont even play a rogue. Just thought I would offer an outsider's perspective.

DDO is about my 10th or 12th MMORPG. In every one of them except DDO, I enjoyed playing rogues and assassins. All the other games are balanced more favorably for rogues. They can trip, blind, stun, silence casters, deliver low blows, and pick pockets. But not in DDO.

Maybe I'm totally wrong. Maybe there is nothing wrong with the balancing of the rogue class in DDO. Maybe the problem is that all the people like me who don't play rogues are just ignorant. Maybe the rogues are actually dominating melee combat, and I just can't tell what's really going on. But when I mention portals and someone says they can save casters' mana by killing trogs, I have to wonder.

[Borror0]

Maybe I'm totally wrong. Maybe there is nothing wrong with the balancing of the rogue class in DDO. Maybe the problem is that all the people like me who don't play rogues are just ignorant. Maybe the rogues are actually dominating melee combat, and I just can't tell what's really going on.

The only problem there is with rogue, is undeads and constructs.

However, there aren't that many at end game. If there were, there are a few enhancements that could be created to work around that.

But when I mention portals and someone says they can save casters' mana by killing trogs, I have to wonder.

You say this like no class had a weak point or like portals were somethnig totally dangerous...

[Aesop]

lets see

Barb with 50 strength and Power attack using a 2handed weapon has a damage bonus of 40

a rogue at level 16 has 8d6 sneak attack and possibly (though not 100%) +12 (or +20)

figuring d6s average here is 3.5(though possibly higher given the weighted die)

that's

28+12... or 40 as it were (48 if halfling)

and that's without strength any strength... or power attack


my rogue does less damage actually then this because I multiclassed... like I do

I may rebuild the character someday ... but for now I'm happy with her


Where a Barb wins out is in raw Critical damage or on Crit Immune Mobs because they have base damage


as for twf... rogues are just NASTY a barbs high mark damage goes down and the rogues do not

also incase anyone missed this a rogue has the Haste Boost so they can swing more than pretty much any other pure class (with the exception of the fighter who also gets the boost)

so on those important mobs that you need to take down faster ... well there ya go


Oh and lets not forget things like Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike suddenly those mobs are being critted a number more times than they were and the rogue just wandered through 40 delayed blast fireballs and is still alive


so no rogues are not weak... players are weak

and the truly good (dare I say great) rogues are a wonder to behold

Aesop

[Lewcipher]

Since I don't know how to do the pretty "my comments in red" thing, let me take exception to some of the above in a more traditional way:



As for the pit fiend: I tank him, and I have 244 HP (not a whole lot). It's easy enough to stay behind him in Part 3, where not dying is of ultimate importance. With dual transmuters I do as much DPS as my barbarian does. I'm not sure if the fiend's fortification is 50 or 75, but I seem to get more Sneak Attack hits than not. I've netted the final blow quite a few times (meaning I'm likely doing as much DPS as anyone else). Part 4 is a not much different... yes I usually die once, or possibly twice. But a raise or two is not a big deal in Part 4.

The only statement I disagree with. You can't die more than once in part 4, nor can you be raised.

Sorry to nitpick.

[geezee]

The only problem there is with rogue, is undeads and constructs.

However, there aren't that many at end game. If there were, there are a few enhancements that could be created to work around that.



You say this like no class had a weak point or like portals were somethnig totally dangerous...

Perhaps you can offer a better explaination as to why rogues are seldom included in the LFMs for shroud groups? Or reaver groups? Or groups for most any high-end quest without a lethal trap?

Are my observations really that wrong or irrelevant?

[Aesop]

The only statement I disagree with. You can't die more than once in part 4, nor can you be raised.

Sorry to nitpick.

its ok just add +1 to the two numbers there and it makes sense

Aesop

[Aesop]

Perhaps you can offer a better explaination as to why rogues are seldom included in the LFMs for shroud groups? Or reaver groups? Or groups for most any high-end quest without a lethal trap?

Are my observations really that wrong or irrelevant?

Your observations are probably due to player ignorance more than anything else.

Though I have seen an occassional "bloody horrible' rogue.

I have also seen bloody horrible casters and barbs and tanks and rangers etc.


but usually there are more than one Meat in a group or someone else to pick up the slack of the slacker.

but rogues there are almost exclusively only 1...

so when things go bad due to a bad rogue then their is rarely anyone to pick up the pieces

Aesop

[geezee]

lets see

Barb with 50 strength and Power attack using a 2handed weapon has a damage bonus of 40

a rogue at level 16 has 8d6 sneak attack and possibly (though not 100%) +12 (or +20)

figuring d6s average here is 3.5(though possibly higher given the weighted die)

that's

28+12... or 40 as it were (48 if halfling)

and that's without strength any strength... or power attack


my rogue does less damage actually then this because I multiclassed... like I do

I may rebuild the character someday ... but for now I'm happy with her


Where a Barb wins out is in raw Critical damage or on Crit Immune Mobs because they have base damage


as for twf... rogues are just NASTY a barbs high mark damage goes down and the rogues do not

also incase anyone missed this a rogue has the Haste Boost so they can swing more than pretty much any other pure class (with the exception of the fighter who also gets the boost)

so on those important mobs that you need to take down faster ... well there ya go


Oh and lets not forget things like Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike suddenly those mobs are being critted a number more times than they were and the rogue just wandered through 40 delayed blast fireballs and is still alive


so no rogues are not weak... players are weak

and the truly good (dare I say great) rogues are a wonder to behold

Aesop

Dont forget that the rogue usually has to wait for his big brother barbarian to start the fight, has to be careful about how fast to apply damage, and has to run around like a chicken or have his stone carried around after the mob finally gets ****ed at him. All these things contribute to the fact that the rogue's actual DPS is usually quite a bit lower than his theoretical or potential DPS. Meanwhile that barbarian will continue swinging away at whatever is in front of him without regard for anything.

And yes, I agree that a good rogue is an awesome sight to behold. Most of the people on this forum are good players, by virtue of the fact that they care enough to see what people are talking about. But you take a playstyle that's difficult to master and combine it with a lot of bad and mediocre players out there, and this is the reason a lot of players like me don't want to deal with having a rogue in the party if at all possible.

[Borror0]

Perhaps you can offer a better explaination as to why rogues are seldom included in the LFMs for shroud groups? Or reaver groups? Or groups for most any high-end quest without a lethal trap?

Are my observations really that wrong or irrelevant?

Low HP and non-combat spec'd rogues.

You know, those rogues who think their only contribution to a party is to do the traps so they max their Spot, Search, Disable Device and Open Lock skills to succeed every trap on a -20 and their incredibly high Int, high Wis and their lovely 8 Con. Those rogue who built their rogue not for combat, but for skills. Their are simply not adapted to the game and don't play their rogue the way they should be played.

It's not a probem of the class, it's a player problem. It's that many players don't know how to build and play their rogue.

The same could be said about the ranger, back in Module 4.

[Ministry]

Honestly, I open up my raids to any class, but the last class I ever want is a Rogue.

I will take a multi-class Rogue combo over a pure Rogue all day long.

There are a few examples of people that I will pick up that have more levels of Rogue than anyone else like Whillow from DWAT and a couple others, but a pure Rogue?

Nope... no thanks.

Here is why... do with it what you will...

The higher level content needs builds that can stand in and take some damage and dish it out, or they need to be able to do range damage like Arcanes and Rangers.

You can say what you want about it being the player not the build, but when the pure or mostly Rogue level toon has 200 hps vs a tank at 450 and do less damage when face to face... why take a Rogue.

Oh, so the Rogue can do some backstab damage. Ya, I've seen more Rogues die because they get too close to the action because they are trying to get in their backstab / kill stealing damage.

In my 2.5 years playing this game, I've only seen one Rogue outkill my Ranger in one mission / quest / raid, and that was when he was wielding 2 W of P weapons and sneaking in to take the kills after the mobs were widdled down.

I see Rogues dying all over the place, so often that my head spins and when I'm on one of my 2 Clerics, I just let them lay dead so they will learn to play smart and stay back and enjoy the free ride.

I know Rogues have some value in some of the quests, but I have done many quests that people say you need a Rogue, without ever bringing one.

Anyways, this is my opinion and if you are on Thelanis, you will know that I have some clue of what I'm talking about through experience, knowledge and capability.

Gratz to the OP for outplaying that not so bright individual in HIPS. There are more times than not a "player" of quality on any toon can outshine other players no matter what their build and weapons, etc... but in my experience, there are so few pure Rogues or mostly Rogues that are worth bringing along.

And this is why you get your reaction.

You are trying to offset all the poor experiences we have had with pure or mostly Rogue builds.

Good luck with offsetting that mentality.

It will take a lot of time and patience and eventually people will invite you to their teams because of your name, not your build.

[Venar]

the most underpowered class in DDO.

What game are you playing?
I dont see how the class with the best DPS, the best +to hit, the best AC, evasion, best enhancements and sub-classes, and best class-oriented gear (Rayment, Tharne Goggle, Radiance Rapier) is underpower...

[kamimitsu]

The only statement I disagree with. You can't die more than once in part 4, nor can you be raised.

Sorry to nitpick.

Sorry, meant part 5... you are absolutely right.

[Lewcipher]

Sorry, meant part 5... you are absolutely right.

LOL. I'm just bored at work and trolling. Gee, imagine that. I'm sure no one else does that.

[Samadhi]

Low HP and non-combat spec'd rogues.

You know, those rogues who think their only contribution to a party is to do the traps so they max their Spot, Search, Disable Device and Open Lock skills to succeed every trap on a -20 and their incredibly high Int, high Wis and their lovely 8 Con. Those rogue who built their rogue not for combat, but for skills. Their are simply not adapted to the game and don't play their rogue the way they should be played.

It's not a probem of the class, it's a player problem. It's that many players don't know how to build and play their rogue.

The same could be said about the ranger, back in Module 4.

This is 100% correct. But if re-emphasis is need - it's a player problem, not a class problem. Poor designs that consider combat secondary, or not at all, are providing minimal benefit to the party. Now, let's combine that 80% of new players seem to gravitate towards rogues - for some reason I have yet to determine - and now the lack of uneducated rogues out there just went up even more. Maybe we should have a warning button for them (a joke). There is nothing wrong with the rogue class; there's just a lot of people out there rolling rogues without a clue of how to make them work (my first one was certainly an abysmal failure).

Caution: Doubt everything Samadhi says - he also believes that the classes are pretty well balanced the way they currently are (!!) - except monks which continue to be useless.