Surprized by the continued bias against rogues

[shores11]

zergers dont like ranger? What?! Cant solo on a ranger? Im sorry, but i believe the best time in the rainbow solo competion was all rangers. with first being 5 mins, 2nd and 3rd, 6 mins.

Please explain how rangers arent a great solo/fast paced class?

Normally I would not respond to someone who totally spins what I said out of context. I believe in the "No Spin Zone". I never said a ranger was not a good solo character on the contrary I believe a ranger is one of the best at soloing. I know as well as I also have a level 16 ranger and do it often. I only said a rogue is not a good solo character, you need to read and respond to exactly what I said.

Wow, do you do that just because you need attention?

[CSFurious]

that dps bothers a lot of players when they look at the kill count & see that the rogue is out-killing them sometimes by 50 to 75%

a lot of the non-rogue player-base cannot handle that

start your own groups if you are bored waiting around, that is what i do with my rogue

[rfachini]

Yeah, it can be tough for a rouge to get groups. I capped out my barbarian 13/rogue 3 no problem. It's been tougher for my straight rogue. I took a vacation day from work yesterday so I thought I'd be able to get him some good XP. Not a group in sight. (Admittedly it was a weekday morning, not a peak gaming time.) I set up an LFM for 7-14 Ataraxia's outdoor area and asked in guild chat a few times but no takers. So I started soloing it to get my last two rares. Ended up dying about four times but got them. Rogues do great in groups but don't solo that well (unless you have way of the assassin). There was a shroud pug but they didn't need a rogue. I even once saw a shroud pug started by a rogue 14/fighter 1. He was the only one in his group at the time and he'd take any class except a rogue.
I got pretty discouraged with the game so I logged and rented a movie. Later on I logged in a paladin 9 and joined a Tempest Spine pug. We spent about 45 minutes getting two clerics and a sorc. I ended up getting the clerics by sending tells to them and asking the group leader to change the group level limits. I'm starting to think we need another server merge. I'm pretty proactive about forming groups and finding things to solo while I wait, but right now I'm of the opinion that henchmen are really going to help people do things in DDO.

[Venar]

My post was about snake attack to-hit, and not damage.
My damage on my multiclassc is 4d6+28 base. with sub-backstabbing, and radiance, you never get aggro... yummy.

[Depravity]

that dps bothers a lot of players when they look at the kill count & see that the rogue is out-killing them sometimes by 50 to 75%

a lot of the non-rogue player-base cannot handle that

start your own groups if you are bored waiting around, that is what i do with my rogue

QFT - chased off more than one barb by outkilling them with my sword and board rogue. They just can't seem to wrap their heads around the joys of cleave and a pocketful of extra d6s.

[gfunk]

I have a capped pure rogue (drow). I rolled up this alt after i saw a lvl 9 pure rogue absolutely dominate the kills in tempest spine.

In low to middle level quests my rogue was great, as the dps I generated backstabbing was very significant relative to the total hp of the mobs. I had similar experience to the OP in pre-gianthold levels in terms of leading the kill count (yes, i know its only a small part of the story), while taking little damage. Plus, at those levels it seems there were always some sort of locked chests or traps about to keep people wanting a rogue in the party. pure rogues seemed pretty relevent to about lvl 12 or so.

mod 4:


Things started to go sideways in gianthold with the prevalence of POP runs, where my rogue wasnt making the grade. At this point, killing was being largely taken over by pk'ing sorcs, and I felt totally out of my element. plus, back then i didnt have any power 5 weapons to augment my utility. This seemed to be one of the first quests where vorpals, simters, disruptors and paralyzers were expected, and i didn't have any. (yes, i realize they arent used as much now in gianthold, but at mod 4 time they seemed to be all the rage). It didnt help that i was pure rogue and could only use simple weapons, and drow weapons with any proficiency. As a result, my rogue went into semi-retirement.

Then mod 5 came:

It really didnt help matters that the next mod to come out was the undead laden mod5... I really felt useless there (no back stabby stab). I only ran in the occasional quest were someone specifically wanted a rogue for some trap/lock duty.

Then mod 6 came:

-running with devils: no traps/locks
-let sleeping dust lie: easily avoidable spike traps, unpickable locks
-coalesence chamber: no pickable locks, initially no traps
-ritual sacrafice: no traps/locks
-rainbow in the dark: 2 chests behind random puzzle/traps, 1 chest behind trap, shine behind trap

I dusted off my rogue for rainbow in the dark. My other alts were running lots of this content and were picking up better weaponry to pass to my rogue. My rogue wasnt in the kill count lead, but at least i was becoming somewhat relevant again.

A few weeks ago i made a concerted effort to re-equip my rogue so that i would have more alts running in the shroud. with better equipment and a few skill point re-jigs (took away all the trapmonkey stuff and went for all the dps and attack bonus stuff). Hitpoints of mobs at higher levels are greatly inflated, meaning i had to absolutely maximize all back stabbing enhancements to achieve meaningful dps.

my rogue is once again a net add to most groups... dps is pretty decent and is only going to improve when i craft a radience rapier and a lightning strike rapier. Still, most shroud groups will only let 1 pure rogue in for fear of too much squishiness (at 288 hp i can melee in part 4, but part 5 puts a serious strain on the clerics). I don't get all the runs in i would like, but my rogue is seeing alot more activity.

So the point of this story is to give an example of how 2 mods (4 and 5) have likely damaged the average persons perception of pure rogues. These mods also saw the transition from a rogue being great as a pure class, to people seeing the rogue as a multi-class option only. The assassin/acrobat options added in mod 7 (i took acrobat, then switched to assassin, then back to acrobat) are probably going to revitalize the rogue a bit, however that will take awhile to make an impression on the general ddo populace. Plus, there aren't that many pure rogues around these days, so its tough for people to see what rogues can do.

Of course, that doesnt really account for the OP's bad experience in HIPS... i just try and keep from running with random pugs so that i avoid that sort of thing (I usually run with my guild, or join groups run by guilds which are known for having reasonable players).

[Aranticus]

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

As a service to the community some people just do not know they are an idiot unless you point it out. Aranticus you are an idiot, now that you know please take action to correct the way the rest of the world sees you.

The only thing I said about a ranger in my original post is that there are some folks that do not like to have rangers in their group or LFM. Thats it, I made no other comment on a ranger. My main character class is a level 16 pure ranger and he is good and I usually have no problems getting into parties. There was a time when rangers no matter what or how good you were had it difficult to get in a party. Now if you have played the game more than 3 months you know what I am speaking of.

re-read your post again, zerger also dun really care for rangers. going around calling names does not move away from the fact that you implied that zergers do not like rangers which is not true. if 1 person get your post wrong, then prolly its is a misread, but 2 person, then it is prolly your fault

i have a ranger, i NEVER had a problem getting into parties. my ranger was built when 32 point came out and have not experienced the hate that you do. in fact just yesterday i was invited to 3 shroud runs after i completed one. sometimes it isnt about the class, its about the person behind the pc.......

[Jay203]

I blame it all on the Numbnut Min-Maxers in the game.

hey! there's nothing wrong with being min/max'er!
provided you're actually able to adjust to the playstyle :P

[SableShadow]

hey! there's nothing wrong with being min/max'er!
provided you're actually able to adjust to the playstyle :P

QFE. Rogue's can't min/max as completely as other classes, though. Our strengths are in our flexibility.

[sirgog]

I agree with one of the replies. I have a dwarf rogue/ranger (10/6). When groups are looking for dps I always ask to join. Much to often I get no response, so I send a tell of my stats. 382 hp, 28 str(rams might 6min -30), crippling stike, duel wielding vorps, and umd at about 36 w/GH ( have 2 plan girds). Normally I get a invite not long after. There are many morons running around Stormreach (sometimes I'm one of them), so people tend to be cautious. And sometimes the people with the LFM's are one of the morons-just send a tell and if no response-you are probably better off anyways -then to jump in that group! Just my two copper pieces. Good luck!

Have a pretty much identical toon.

I can out-DPS all but the most twinkout out Barbarians against the Pit Fiend, and due to selfcast Fireshield and Stoneskin, take a lot less damage than most Bbns.

I like to think of Disector as a Bbn with Evasion, trap skills and UMD.

[sephiroth1084]

In the "Tell the DDO Community Team" thread, there is a question this week (or last) asking what we, as a community, enjoy in our quests, or from quests past. I wrote, that, among other things, I most enjoy quests that have something for everyone.

Everyone in this thread that wants their rogues to become more relevant should go reply to that thread, mentioning that they would like significant traps, locked doors and chests in their dungeons! Emphasize that these things should be challenging for anyone not pure or close to pure rogue skill-wise.

I don't play a pure rogue. I have a rogue/ranger that I've rolled and re-rolled trying to find the best combination of levels and feats, etc... That being said, the quests I enjoy the most are those where I get to flex the roguish side of the build (I LOVE Gwylan's Stand on elite!).

A party running The Shroud will benefit somewhat from having ONE rogue in the group for part 3, and VoD requires a rogue, though the level of rogue required for either is fairly low. It seems to me that the devs threw these things in as afterthoughts.

Don't jump down my throat about how rogues are more than just trapmonkies please. A quest simply requiring DPS will lean heavily toward barbarians and rangers, while a quest that needs a tank will lean toward paladins and fighters. While some rogues can fulfill those roles, many cannot, so the surest way of making rogues a more welcome part of a group is by throwing the above elements into the quests.

Thinking about it, the likely reason for the mods with quests that don't require rogues is that a lot of players probably felt that it was a hassle to have so many quests that DID require rogues. I know that sometimes it's a pain to not be able to run a quest because we can't get class X, and, in the early to mid-levels, rogues come up as that class often. Usually a quest can be done sans-caster or cleric, with someone else filling that role (bard usually), but there are a lot of quests during the first half of the game that are difficult or nearly impossible to run without a rogue.

Some players may have complained about that, and the result is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Make your voices heard, that we may get the pendulum to swing back.

One thing I'd like to see the devs add to help rogues out a bit is either an enhancement or feat or item that allows rogues to sneak attack undead and constructs (separate enh, feat or item for each). There is an alternate class feature for the rogue in Complete Champion that does this, but reduces the amount of damage from sneak attack the rogue applies in these situations. Still, it'd be nice. I think this is the reason that so many undead laden dungeons are also chock full of traps.

[Uska]

Rogue is a great and powerfull class.
It is also the easiest one to gimp out.
So people are suspicious.

You will encounter the bad rogue very often:
The rogue who cant do the traps
The rogue without the DPS he should have (you know, that rogue with the bow that shoots twice then tumble backward)
The rogue with paper HP who dies as soon as an ogre looks his way

My advice? Send tells to leader, and state your HP and AC, and say you have good DPS.
Rogues who do all their jobs and have learned to compensate their weakness are a great asset, and you will make a name for yourself.

Rogues jobs, in order of importance:

1- DPS. A rogue must be in the kill count. If not, /reroll.2- Traps.
3- Specific Evasion moments (like killing blade barrier spamming mobs)
4- Utility (UMD stuff)

Rogues weakness to work on:

1- total HP
2- non-sneak attack DPS

I hate statements like this when will people learn kill count means nothing.

[Uska]

As a service to the community some people just do not know they are an idiot unless you point it out. Aranticus you are an idiot, now that you know please take action to correct the way the rest of the world sees you.

The only thing I said about a ranger in my original post is that there are some folks that do not like to have rangers in their group or LFM. Thats it, I made no other comment on a ranger. My main character class is a level 16 pure ranger and he is good and I usually have no problems getting into parties. There was a time when rangers no matter what or how good you were had it difficult to get in a party. Now if you have played the game more than 3 months you know what I am speaking of.

You shouldnt call people names its very wrong and you should applogize(spelling)

[sirgog]

I hate statements like this when will people learn kill count means nothing.

I think it's because a wellplayed rogue will usually lead the killcount, regardless of whether the player is going for the killcount deliberately to show off or not. (I hate players that do that).

A wellplayed Rogue will often steal kills, because they'll be sticking the knives into the back of a foe that the tank/barbarian/sorc has the aggro of. The tank/bbn/sorc will do a lot of the damage, but the burst damage done by the rogue will usually get the kill. If a Rogue isn't stealing kills like that, IMO they aren't doing what their class is best at - putting out SERIOUS DPS on sneak attack-susceptable foes..


That said, back onto the trapsmithing side of things. I really like the quest The Cursed Crypt, because it has a bunch of nasty, nasty traps that don't do much damage (in fact they deal no damage), but you really, REALLY want to disarm them. I'm talking about the falling floor traps - failing to deal with them results in the quest taking longer, and causes the party to lose one chest. But, the quest can also be completed successfully with no trapsmith - so if there's noone online with trap skills that's willing to run the Crypt, you can still beat the quest (unlike Elite STK at level 5-7, which is pretty much impossible without a trapsmith, or Gwylan's Elite with no trapsmith, which is possible but extremely messy)

[Strykersz]

I hate statements like this when will people learn kill count means nothing.

Kill count serves as a fairly good proxy for dps(assuming you observe the target selection choices of the players involved) for all classes other than rogues. Rogues may suffer in the kill counts if they dps optimally because they will pull aggro before the mob is fully dead. However, even this exception is made mostly moot by Radiance 2 weapons(the mob will be blind before it dies, making the aggro issue disappear). In any case, a fairly large portion of the rogue hate is the result of low-hp/low-ac rogues pulling aggro and kiting(much like gimp bow rangers caused rangers problems before they became so overpowered it was worth taking the chance) or dying.

[yahaa]

Yeah, it can be tough for a rouge to get groups. I capped out my barbarian 13/rogue 3 no problem. It's been tougher for my straight rogue. I took a vacation day from work yesterday so I thought I'd be able to get him some good XP. Not a group in sight. (Admittedly it was a weekday morning, not a peak gaming time.) I set up an LFM for 7-14 Ataraxia's outdoor area and asked in guild chat a few times but no takers. So I started soloing it to get my last two rares. Ended up dying about four times but got them. Rogues do great in groups but don't solo that well (unless you have way of the assassin). There was a shroud pug but they didn't need a rogue. I even once saw a shroud pug started by a rogue 14/fighter 1. He was the only one in his group at the time and he'd take any class except a rogue.
I got pretty discouraged with the game so I logged and rented a movie. Later on I logged in a paladin 9 and joined a Tempest Spine pug. We spent about 45 minutes getting two clerics and a sorc. I ended up getting the clerics by sending tells to them and asking the group leader to change the group level limits. I'm starting to think we need another server merge. I'm pretty proactive about forming groups and finding things to solo while I wait, but right now I'm of the opinion that henchmen are really going to help people do things in DDO.

I tend to take rogues into my party, sometimes 2 or 3. Sometimes we do great, other times.............. I have played a rogue for only a limited ammount of time (Basically I think I am a poor agro manager) so he is now my bank toon. I think that it depends on who you know behind the rogue. I have the pleasure of playing with one of the best rogues on our server IMO (Shiz). Are his toons the best? No clue, but I know he can play the role well, for many situations. Look for me, I usually am always open for rogues to join, heck, let's face it the quests need to have some challenges, so why not tank it with rogues. Just my 2cp.........Yahaa

[Aranticus]

Have a pretty much identical toon.

I can out-DPS all but the most twinkout out Barbarians against the Pit Fiend, and due to selfcast Fireshield and Stoneskin, take a lot less damage than most Bbns.

I like to think of Disector as a Bbn with Evasion, trap skills and UMD.

sorry that has been taken up by toradon, a REAL barb with evasion, trap skills and umd

[CSFurious]

the kill counts

please go sell bitterness somewhere else

any rogue who is not in the top 3 of any kill count is either not being played well or is a gimpy build

I hate statements like this when will people learn kill count means nothing.

[Eudimio]

Hey guys,

Many of the responses here give an indication of why there is a problem.

How many posters have a rogue as their main character?

How long have you been playing your rogue?

Rogues are very equipment-driven. Initial build and multiclass options are minor factors in making a quality rogue.

Time.

Time is the biggest factor. Time to acquire gear, raid loot, and multiple shroud items and weapons. Time to learn the proper play-style. Time to develop a good reputation.

The great majority of rogues haven't made that time investment. My rogue has been my main character for about two and a half years. He's been a guild leader for about half of that time. I don't see any of the problems that are listed.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

[kamimitsu]

low con hamsters that spend all of part 1 in sneak mode.

Heh... I usually spend most of Shroud 1 in sneak mode. Then again, I usually have 30-40 kills (sometimes more) assassinating trogs when they spawn. I find that if you work with the sorcs/wizzies and let them know that you will assasinate the first trog (or two if side by side) and they clean up the rest, they save a lot of SP and things go quite a bit smoother. I don't know if I'm a low CON hamster, though, as I usually sit at 244 HP (perhaps a tad on the low side).

Oh, and thanks for the kind words Yahaa, you must be drinking!

Shiz