Surprized by the continued bias against rogues

[cdemeritt]

Well, Sort of anyways.
I just need to vent. It is amazing to me that I can get my sorcerer into a shroud easier than I can get my rogue into a party sometimes. Last night I watched the LFM page for 30 minutes, trying to find something to do. I saw 3 lvl approperate groups form up. All 3 had no more than 3 members in them with no rogue or anyone with any rogue skills (ok, I don't much like the "we don't need a rogue, I've got 2 lvls of rogue to get any traps" mentality, but it is what it is.) and the LFM's on all three groups were looking for all classes except rogue! One of the Groups was running HIPS for XP to boot. I almost sent them a tell saying "You want XP from HIPS, yet you don't want the extra 15% a rogue would get you?". I think the best part was that after 30 min. all three groups still had their LFM's up. Finally, the HIPS group changed their LFM to include a rogue. I joined, but the leader of the group pretty much did nothing to hide his dislike of rogues, and basically ran though any traps. When it came time to do the swim, he said in a very unconfident tone, that he would "try" to do the swim for us. I said "Let me, I have Evasion/Improved Evasion, and a great reflex, the swim will be nothing for me" His response "It has Nothing to do with Evasion: It's all about Timing". So I gave him a Headstart, followed him in, swam past him 3 times ( got turned around and accidently got back to the start, and started over) and still beat him to the valve. He took almost 50% of his life in damage, I took a total of 2 HP of damage, and all he said was "Well at least the traps are down" in a disgusted tone of voice. To top it all off, in the end, I was able to keep up with him in kills, and didn't die once in the 2 quests we did, (unlike him, who went splat on more than one occasion) because anytime I got real low, I backed of and wand whipped myself back to health. (ok, the cleric did save my butt more than once, but never full on death like the party leader). Now I would normally chock this attitude up to a new or fairly new player, who has a limited understanding of rogues, but when talking to this guy about things, he had multiple shroud ready toons.
So Really, are there that many bad rogues out there that so many EXP. Players don't even want one in party? Is it really that difficult for some to accept that a rogue can do much more than pick a lock or Disable a trap? My rogue is a skills rogue first. and after Disabling the Cabal Chest Trap at Lvl 10 (ok, it was on Normal), I think I'm doing well with that, However, I'm much more than that. My kill count is usually in the top 3, I can wand whip when needed (more than once I've dropped back from a fight to help the cleric), and I'm growing to be a decent soloist as well.
I actually am growing to like soloing much better than running with groups, because, Strategy actually comes back into the game. I just ran the Tangleroot series again (I needed a Summon monsters Clickie, the only one I know of is in Tangleroot) I wasn't going to pester people into running it with me, and didn't expect to find a group that would want a level 10 rogue, So I solo'd it. While the first couple parts were easy enough, the last couple, being level 7 quests, were a bit more difficult. While I know I could have finished the series in 1 hr with a group that just wanted to zerg though it, I took my time (about 4 hrs), solo'd it, and had fun, plus got about 5K XP for it. Figuring out how to deal with a difficult part, finding a safe sport to fall back to when things got too heated, etc. etc. all those things that have gotten lost with the current predominate strategy of running full steam headlong into trouble, and letting the cleric pick up the pieces after. Most Arcanes don't even bother with CC anymore, because so few use it. same with Trap disabling. It seems most classes look at clerics and arcanes as mear buffing machines for them, and rogues don't buff, so we don't need them at all. Or is it that the major melee classes are just jealous that rogues can easily out kill them?
I guess I'm just a bit annoyed. Of my 4 toons, my Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue, I feel my rogue is the most fun to play, and certainly one of my most powerful characters, but he gets the worst treatment when LFG.

[GrayOldDruid]

I blame it all on the Numbnut Min-Maxers in the game. Zergalholics. Speed Runs. Just about all classes have a pigeon-hole they're jammed into.
Just looking at all the builds here that incorporate a Paladin Aura, a Ranger's Barkskin and various Cleric and Arcane buffs into their standard AC, to hit and HP, they "have" to get those things in order to be effective. So, they regulate everyone to a role based on the character class that is shown - usually nothing else. People who run through the traps just annoy me as well - 15 seconds to save some HP too much to ask?

"Oh, the cleric will patch us up." "My arse, I'm still on this side of the trap waiting for the rogue to make it safe, PLUS, I'm saving my SP for Destruction, Slay Living and Harm. Shoulda let the Rogue disarm the trap, drink a potion."

Personally, when on my Ranger... I am a Rogue. When on my Sorc or Wiz or Cleric, I have much Rogue Luvs. When on my fighter... eh... more loot always good. My up and coming Fighter/Rogue I'm not sure about yet... probably love a real skilz rogue, cause he is all assassin. My future battle Cleric ... woah...

[nbhs275]

Well, Sort of anyways.
I just need to vent. It is amazing to me that I can get my sorcerer into a shroud easier than I can get my rogue into a party sometimes. Last night I watched the LFM page for 30 minutes, trying to find something to do. I saw 3 lvl approperate groups form up. All 3 had no more than 3 members in them with no rogue or anyone with any rogue skills (ok, I don't much like the "we don't need a rogue, I've got 2 lvls of rogue to get any traps" mentality, but it is what it is.) and the LFM's on all three groups were looking for all classes except rogue! One of the Groups was running HIPS for XP to boot. I almost sent them a tell saying "You want XP from HIPS, yet you don't want the extra 15% a rogue would get you?". I think the best part was that after 30 min. all three groups still had their LFM's up. Finally, the HIPS group changed their LFM to include a rogue. I joined, but the leader of the group pretty much did nothing to hide his dislike of rogues, and basically ran though any traps. When it came time to do the swim, he said in a very unconfident tone, that he would "try" to do the swim for us. I said "Let me, I have Evasion/Improved Evasion, and a great reflex, the swim will be nothing for me" His response "It has Nothing to do with Evasion: It's all about Timing". So I gave him a Headstart, followed him in, swam past him 3 times ( got turned around and accidently got back to the start, and started over) and still beat him to the valve. He took almost 50% of his life in damage, I took a total of 2 HP of damage, and all he said was "Well at least the traps are down" in a disgusted tone of voice. To top it all off, in the end, I was able to keep up with him in kills, and didn't die once in the 2 quests we did, (unlike him, who went splat on more than one occasion) because anytime I got real low, I backed of and wand whipped myself back to health. (ok, the cleric did save my butt more than once, but never full on death like the party leader). Now I would normally chock this attitude up to a new or fairly new player, who has a limited understanding of rogues, but when talking to this guy about things, he had multiple shroud ready toons.
So Really, are there that many bad rogues out there that so many EXP. Players don't even want one in party? Is it really that difficult for some to accept that a rogue can do much more than pick a lock or Disable a trap? My rogue is a skills rogue first. and after Disabling the Cabal Chest Trap at Lvl 10 (ok, it was on Normal), I think I'm doing well with that, However, I'm much more than that. My kill count is usually in the top 3, I can wand whip when needed (more than once I've dropped back from a fight to help the cleric), and I'm growing to be a decent soloist as well.
I actually am growing to like soloing much better than running with groups, because, Strategy actually comes back into the game. I just ran the Tangleroot series again (I needed a Summon monsters Clickie, the only one I know of is in Tangleroot) I wasn't going to pester people into running it with me, and didn't expect to find a group that would want a level 10 rogue, So I solo'd it. While the first couple parts were easy enough, the last couple, being level 7 quests, were a bit more difficult. While I know I could have finished the series in 1 hr with a group that just wanted to zerg though it, I took my time (about 4 hrs), solo'd it, and had fun, plus got about 5K XP for it. Figuring out how to deal with a difficult part, finding a safe sport to fall back to when things got too heated, etc. etc. all those things that have gotten lost with the current predominate strategy of running full steam headlong into trouble, and letting the cleric pick up the pieces after. Most Arcanes don't even bother with CC anymore, because so few use it. same with Trap disabling. It seems most classes look at clerics and arcanes as mear buffing machines for them, and rogues don't buff, so we don't need them at all. Or is it that the major melee classes are just jealous that rogues can easily out kill them?
I guess I'm just a bit annoyed. Of my 4 toons, my Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue, I feel my rogue is the most fun to play, and certainly one of my most powerful characters, but he gets the worst treatment when LFG.

I got about 3 sentances in before i stopped. You cant just make 2 giant paragraphs of ramshackled ideas, its too difficult to read and understand.

The reasons rogues are biased against now is twofold : Morons who think you need to max intel and fully devote everything in the build towards traps.

And morons who think that doing traps is completely unimportant to a rogue.


A rogue can get nearly ever quest in the game with only a base 12 intel. And no enhancments. So there is no point to go all out to max them, and there is no reason to avoid them on a nearly pure rogue build.

Right now ive been leveling up my rogue, along with a monk, monk/cleric, and sorcerer. The rogue and sorcerer are about equal in their fun factor. The rogue can just go insane on the damage end of the equation, but it takes a smart play stategy, and a good team. If as a rogue you try and run in first, your not gunna do too well. Your role is basically to get in and finish them quickly. If the fighter has the enemy at 75% already, you can most likely go and kill it very quickly, without ever being attacked.

Of course if you have a radience rapier and make smart use of diplomacy, then you will get into a fight earlier. And thats the difference really between a rogues dps. Its very situational, and based around both the enemy, and party. Where say the sorcerer can put down a firewall and its always going to do about the same amount of damage, barring a crit.

Oh, and a tip that seems to really throw low level rogues for a loop. USE the BEST +X weapon you can get. If your level 4, use a +3 rapier(4 if RR). Ditto at 6 and 8. Your to hit isnt going to be high enough with that stupid +1 flaming burst rapier to make up for the addition miss chance.

As seen here

[shores11]

I blame it all on the Numbnut Min-Maxers in the game. Zergalholics. Speed Runs.

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

[nbhs275]

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

zergers dont like ranger? What?! Cant solo on a ranger? Im sorry, but i believe the best time in the rainbow solo competion was all rangers. with first being 5 mins, 2nd and 3rd, 6 mins.

Please explain how rangers arent a great solo/fast paced class?

[Aranticus]

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

you must not know what a ranger can do.......

[Venar]

Rogue is a great and powerfull class.
It is also the easiest one to gimp out.
So people are suspicious.

You will encounter the bad rogue very often:
The rogue who cant do the traps
The rogue without the DPS he should have (you know, that rogue with the bow that shoots twice then tumble backward)
The rogue with paper HP who dies as soon as an ogre looks his way

My advice? Send tells to leader, and state your HP and AC, and say you have good DPS.
Rogues who do all their jobs and have learned to compensate their weakness are a great asset, and you will make a name for yourself.

Rogues jobs, in order of importance:

1- DPS. A rogue must be in the kill count. If not, /reroll.
2- Traps.
3- Specific Evasion moments (like killing blade barrier spamming mobs)
4- Utility (UMD stuff)

Rogues weakness to work on:

1- total HP
2- non-sneak attack DPS

[cdemeritt]

nbhs275:"You cant just make 2 giant paragraphs of ramshackled ideas, its too difficult to read and understand."

Sorry, But since I Did, Apparently I can! Anywho, since you said you really didn't read it too closely, I just want to point out two very Important lines. One, the second sentence "I just need to vent.", and the next to last sentence "I guess I'm just a bit annoyed." Based on your response, These should have been the two lines you should have focused on. If I didn't get that ramshackled batch of thoughts out of my head before I went to work, it is all that would have been on my mind all night.
2nd, most of what you said, I fully understand. I was just noting that so many still think all there is to a rogue is trap Disabling, and don't realize the full power they really have. Can't wait until he can get the WotAII, and the simple fact is I can get every trap I've come across so far, yet still steal the kill count from fighter types. (and yes I can outkill most fighters sometimes 4X and not just by kill stealing) Ok, GH quests have humbled me some, BAB not quite high enough yet to hit more than 50% of the time, yet. (yes +X weapons, Got it, Have them. Need to upgrade soon as I find some. got some nice stuff in the bank for next lvl) With 3 Capped toons, I do have some Clue of what I'm doing.

shores11: Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

I plan on it. Seems like he's going to become yet another Guild only character, however. Kinda like my cleric. I don't Pug My Cleric.

[Borror0]

Sorry, But since I Did, Apparently I can!

Honestly, CD, making smaller paragraphs eases reading.

[Philam]

I agree with one of the replies. I have a dwarf rogue/ranger (10/6). When groups are looking for dps I always ask to join. Much to often I get no response, so I send a tell of my stats. 382 hp, 28 str(rams might 6min -30), crippling stike, duel wielding vorps, and umd at about 36 w/GH ( have 2 plan girds). Normally I get a invite not long after. There are many morons running around Stormreach (sometimes I'm one of them), so people tend to be cautious. And sometimes the people with the LFM's are one of the morons-just send a tell and if no response-you are probably better off anyways -then to jump in that group! Just my two copper pieces. Good luck!

[Venar]

Ok, GH quests have humbled me some, BAB not quite high enough yet to hit more than 50% of the time

This is where it becomes important to have your sneak attacks.
Most rogues can get from +10 to +15 to-hit just from sneak attacking.
One of my multiclass characters gets various bonuses, from the hlafling sneak attack line, the halfling flanking line, the fighter flanking line, the monk way of the hound, the rogue sneak attack line, the Thranes goggles. All in all, with the natural flank bonus, i get about +17 to-hit when sneak attacking from the side.
So, a tank with intimidate, a big aggro grabber, some glitterdust, can really turn you into the dps machine that you are, until you get the so pretty radiance 2 rapier.
If you are into stat damage or kill effects (like vorpal), the feat Precision can be handy until you get there.

[jkm]

true story:

madstone elite lfm up - group has a caster, cleric, 2 rogues (leader was a rogue), and a bard - i'm like, well, this will be an easy run so i try to join on my rogue (note, this was out of boredom, not need). i send a tell asking if they need a combat rogue - no, we need a tank. i send back - i can tank - 56 ac, 330 hp, 38 intimidate. sorry, need a fighter.

i could have went on and on out of fun, but i just had to smile. personally, i've gotten in trouble in the shroud taking too many rogues - assuming they are built like peppr or nuckles or najdorf or aeneas - rogues that can get in and mix it up. instead, you get the low con hamsters that spend all of part 1 in sneak mode.

and to me that was what this rogue was saying - i don't want you because your squishy and can't fight like a fighter can, because that is what i am.

[ORCRiST]

So Really, are there that many bad rogues out there that so many EXP. Players don't even want one in party?

Yes.

ORCRiST

[Yajerman01]

My advice? Send tells to leader, and state your HP and AC, and say you have good DPS.

Hello, Im a 4'5 Halfing rogue who likes moonlit nights, creepy small caves and has a hankering for a pint of ale once in a while!!

Does an gimp tank have to send a tell explaining their HP or AC?

Any leader of a group takes a chance with a PUG. Biasm over not knowing what a rogue can do is simply stating the obvious, "its about you and your insecurities and ignorance". A good leader can make a group work well regardless of class.

tot he OP, stop joining bad PUG leaders! start up your own LFM and bring attention on your own. If a rogue is a bad player, his name will spread like a wildfire and he/she will come to the realization that his character is either a gimp or he/she plays like a gimp.

I have seen bad rogues, but I have seen more bad tanks, clerics, sorcs, wizzies, bards because ignorant leaders give them cart blanche over a rogue.

[Raithe]

It is also the easiest one to gimp out.
So people are suspicious.

Some people are, but not everyone. I normally take anyone who requests to join my group in the order the requests come in, but I have to admit I breathe a sigh of relief when I get rogue, ranger, bard, and paladin melee instead of all fighters or barbarians. Like I used to say when multi-classed were considered "gimp," the character with a wider range of abilities is likely to have a better understanding of the game and know what to do and when to do it. Classes that are purely designed as hackers and not much else usually attract the least skilled players.

[Yajerman01]

I agree with one of the replies. I have a dwarf rogue/ranger (10/6). When groups are looking for dps I always ask to join. Much to often I get no response, so I send a tell of my stats. 382 hp, 28 str(rams might 6min -30), crippling stike, duel wielding vorps, and umd at about 36 w/GH ( have 2 plan girds). Normally I get a invite not long after. There are many morons running around Stormreach (sometimes I'm one of them), so people tend to be cautious. And sometimes the people with the LFM's are one of the morons-just send a tell and if no response-you are probably better off anyways -then to jump in that group! Just my two copper pieces. Good luck!

If you have to go that far out of your way, then maybe there not worth your time and effort.

Im not disagreeing with you, but seriously, why explain yourself to a moron, as you put it. Start your own LFM, or if you "really" need the quest, and its really going slow and are having a really hard to grouping or forming a group of your own and have no choice, then I guess holding their hand and telling them about your character will suffice. However, I have always been able to find a group within a half hour or less.

I did experience the oppositite not to long ago though where my rogue splash fighter got rejected becasue I wasnt a "pure" rogue. ( I was fighter-rogue 2/2 on STK (normal). I laughed it off and joined a group 10 minutes later doing the same run. I saw on the LFM he got a 4 level "pure" rogue but not 5 minutes into our quest, we filled the last spot with the very same rogue that was in his group. Apparently it went south fast. Suffice to say, my rogue fighter is now 7/2 and I saw the leader recently, still level 3.

[Venar]

Oh, i dont disagree with that, i mean, anybody can be anything.
Just take bard. You never know what you get. A passive singer buffer, an aggressive crowd controller, or a crazy TWF bard with dual-wops?
But rogue have this special tag: squishy.
A tag acquired often during low levels, where there are tons of low HP rogues. With the removal of the death-XP-penalty (man, do i miss it), some rogues make it to 16, dying 3 to 5 times per quest because they carry 175 HP. You know, death-on-a-1 rogues.
And this is what good rogues have to overcome. The misconception that rogues are too squishy to justify their good DPS.
This is Mod 7. Rogues must have high AC, good HP, and DPS.
Many many dont.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I find it amazing how even the rogue lovers can't agree.

or the LFM's put up by a rogue, who does not want another rogue in his party. (this happens with other classes as well)

I had to convince another, proud of his DPS, rogue to let my rogue fill a fighter spot in his group.
And I out killed him by 50 some kills.......and he was about 10 above the Paladin bringing up 3rd place.

Rogue do generally have low HP. And generally have low AC.
But those two facts don't have to mean they die alot. Diplomacy and fearsome armor....and just knowing when to jump out of battle and self-heal.

rogues are gimped against creatures that they cannot get SA damage on.....but in general Barbarians are gimped against those same types of creatures....so........

Rogues can use all the special weps anyone else can........and pull more rapiers as end rewards, so should have a better chance of owning those uber weps everyone wants.

My Pal14/Rog2 has put zero! (0) pts into trap skills after lvl 2, and recently redid my AP to get rid of all of my trap enhancements.
And I can still self-buff up and do lvl 12 normal quest traps!
To me that means that any rogue, no matter how gimped the build, can be a decent trap monkey if they know how!
All you need is good buff items (goggles, gloves etc) and potions and scrolls to give you a few extra points.
(fox's, Cat's, Prayer, Heroism, Grtr Hero, Haste, Find traps....am I forgetting anything?) And my guy doesn't even have the best goggles/gloves avail in game! (but I do have some good ones)

No reason at all why a seasoned player cannot make a rogue perfom his trap duties if he plans ahead.

SA DPS is awesome!
Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Knowing how to get the best from it and not die is difficult. But a good rogue can recover from anything short of death without assistance from a cleric........so IMO no need to call him a mana sponge.

Barbs are mana sponges! They are not squishy, and they usually get a bunch of kills.....but they are far more of a mana sponge than the average rogue IMO.

Diplomacy, Diplomacy, Diplomacy!!!!!
I'm actually surprised that the rogue haters are not mentioning how many times the rest of the party dies because the rogue shoved his agro off on his party members!
In a recent quest, I was praised for my kill count, but no one seemed to notice how much I used diplomacy and how much more often someone else died instead of me.

I have seen a huge number of rogues get killed all the time and need to be healed, rezed etc. But from playing one myself, I really don't understand why.

My rog12 is currently a little squishy, especially when I zerge agressively.
But if I had all the equip my main has, I doubt I'd die often at all.

rogues can definately zerge. My method is charge, jump into a mob, hit diplomacy, and mop up everything as they turn to go after the barbarian! (then jump my butt out of there and hope I didn't leave many survivors) repeat as necessary.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is where it becomes important to have your sneak attacks.
Most rogues can get from +10 to +15 to-hit just from sneak attacking.
One of my multiclass characters gets various bonuses, from the hlafling sneak attack line, the halfling flanking line, the fighter flanking line, the monk way of the hound, the rogue sneak attack line, the Thranes goggles. All in all, with the natural flank bonus, i get about +17 to-hit when sneak attacking from the side.
So, a tank with intimidate, a big aggro grabber, some glitterdust, can really turn you into the dps machine that you are, until you get the so pretty radiance 2 rapier.
If you are into stat damage or kill effects (like vorpal), the feat Precision can be handy until you get there.

on my "Feats" page it says Sneak attack damage 6d6+9 for my Rog12.
I should be getting a +9 for enhancements, which may or may not be included on the feat description.

So:
+3 Flaming Raier of Pure Good, + 4 Str, +2 for Drow enhancement.
1-6 + 9.....+ 6d6+9.....+ 1-6 Fire, +1-6 Good..........maybe another +9 SA for enhancement.
Failed assasination add 10d6 pts.

This is a non-crit BTW.
Improved crit piece make one out of four hits a crit.........

Add in rogue damsage boost, or Way of the assasin I poison effect........and WOTA I & II both say they give +2 to damage before multipliers on a crit...........

Then the +1 Flaming Short Swrod of Pure Good in the off hand...........
Both weps get damage when attacking from stealth simultaniously............

I get lost in the math, but I figure I average 50 pts of damage on a non-crit SA! per weapon........ And I crit alot!

And I'm only lvl 12 without uber equip...........

[Yajerman01]

With the removal of the death-XP-penalty (man, do i miss it), some rogues make it to 16, dying 3 to 5 times per quest because they carry 175 HP.

Yeah, now that I concede. I dont get how a rogue has so little. With my current build, at capped he will have WOTAII [DC31 or 32 on assassinate] Guile III and SA training III and SA accuracy III, cunning III, self buffed ac of 61 and 296 hit points. I have another rogue im working on right now as well which is a str based (goign Wot acrobat) which will be a dwarf and 369 HP. so yeah i dont follow "squishy" builds unless they have a very good reason (although I dont see what)