Surprized by the continued bias against rogues

[cdemeritt]

Well, Sort of anyways.
I just need to vent. It is amazing to me that I can get my sorcerer into a shroud easier than I can get my rogue into a party sometimes. Last night I watched the LFM page for 30 minutes, trying to find something to do. I saw 3 lvl approperate groups form up. All 3 had no more than 3 members in them with no rogue or anyone with any rogue skills (ok, I don't much like the "we don't need a rogue, I've got 2 lvls of rogue to get any traps" mentality, but it is what it is.) and the LFM's on all three groups were looking for all classes except rogue! One of the Groups was running HIPS for XP to boot. I almost sent them a tell saying "You want XP from HIPS, yet you don't want the extra 15% a rogue would get you?". I think the best part was that after 30 min. all three groups still had their LFM's up. Finally, the HIPS group changed their LFM to include a rogue. I joined, but the leader of the group pretty much did nothing to hide his dislike of rogues, and basically ran though any traps. When it came time to do the swim, he said in a very unconfident tone, that he would "try" to do the swim for us. I said "Let me, I have Evasion/Improved Evasion, and a great reflex, the swim will be nothing for me" His response "It has Nothing to do with Evasion: It's all about Timing". So I gave him a Headstart, followed him in, swam past him 3 times ( got turned around and accidently got back to the start, and started over) and still beat him to the valve. He took almost 50% of his life in damage, I took a total of 2 HP of damage, and all he said was "Well at least the traps are down" in a disgusted tone of voice. To top it all off, in the end, I was able to keep up with him in kills, and didn't die once in the 2 quests we did, (unlike him, who went splat on more than one occasion) because anytime I got real low, I backed of and wand whipped myself back to health. (ok, the cleric did save my butt more than once, but never full on death like the party leader). Now I would normally chock this attitude up to a new or fairly new player, who has a limited understanding of rogues, but when talking to this guy about things, he had multiple shroud ready toons.
So Really, are there that many bad rogues out there that so many EXP. Players don't even want one in party? Is it really that difficult for some to accept that a rogue can do much more than pick a lock or Disable a trap? My rogue is a skills rogue first. and after Disabling the Cabal Chest Trap at Lvl 10 (ok, it was on Normal), I think I'm doing well with that, However, I'm much more than that. My kill count is usually in the top 3, I can wand whip when needed (more than once I've dropped back from a fight to help the cleric), and I'm growing to be a decent soloist as well.
I actually am growing to like soloing much better than running with groups, because, Strategy actually comes back into the game. I just ran the Tangleroot series again (I needed a Summon monsters Clickie, the only one I know of is in Tangleroot) I wasn't going to pester people into running it with me, and didn't expect to find a group that would want a level 10 rogue, So I solo'd it. While the first couple parts were easy enough, the last couple, being level 7 quests, were a bit more difficult. While I know I could have finished the series in 1 hr with a group that just wanted to zerg though it, I took my time (about 4 hrs), solo'd it, and had fun, plus got about 5K XP for it. Figuring out how to deal with a difficult part, finding a safe sport to fall back to when things got too heated, etc. etc. all those things that have gotten lost with the current predominate strategy of running full steam headlong into trouble, and letting the cleric pick up the pieces after. Most Arcanes don't even bother with CC anymore, because so few use it. same with Trap disabling. It seems most classes look at clerics and arcanes as mear buffing machines for them, and rogues don't buff, so we don't need them at all. Or is it that the major melee classes are just jealous that rogues can easily out kill them?
I guess I'm just a bit annoyed. Of my 4 toons, my Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue, I feel my rogue is the most fun to play, and certainly one of my most powerful characters, but he gets the worst treatment when LFG.

[GrayOldDruid]

I blame it all on the Numbnut Min-Maxers in the game. Zergalholics. Speed Runs. Just about all classes have a pigeon-hole they're jammed into.
Just looking at all the builds here that incorporate a Paladin Aura, a Ranger's Barkskin and various Cleric and Arcane buffs into their standard AC, to hit and HP, they "have" to get those things in order to be effective. So, they regulate everyone to a role based on the character class that is shown - usually nothing else. People who run through the traps just annoy me as well - 15 seconds to save some HP too much to ask?

"Oh, the cleric will patch us up." "My arse, I'm still on this side of the trap waiting for the rogue to make it safe, PLUS, I'm saving my SP for Destruction, Slay Living and Harm. Shoulda let the Rogue disarm the trap, drink a potion."

Personally, when on my Ranger... I am a Rogue. When on my Sorc or Wiz or Cleric, I have much Rogue Luvs. When on my fighter... eh... more loot always good. My up and coming Fighter/Rogue I'm not sure about yet... probably love a real skilz rogue, cause he is all assassin. My future battle Cleric ... woah...

[shores11]

I blame it all on the Numbnut Min-Maxers in the game. Zergalholics. Speed Runs.

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

[nbhs275]

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

zergers dont like ranger? What?! Cant solo on a ranger? Im sorry, but i believe the best time in the rainbow solo competion was all rangers. with first being 5 mins, 2nd and 3rd, 6 mins.

Please explain how rangers arent a great solo/fast paced class?

[Venar]

Rogue is a great and powerfull class.
It is also the easiest one to gimp out.
So people are suspicious.

You will encounter the bad rogue very often:
The rogue who cant do the traps
The rogue without the DPS he should have (you know, that rogue with the bow that shoots twice then tumble backward)
The rogue with paper HP who dies as soon as an ogre looks his way

My advice? Send tells to leader, and state your HP and AC, and say you have good DPS.
Rogues who do all their jobs and have learned to compensate their weakness are a great asset, and you will make a name for yourself.

Rogues jobs, in order of importance:

1- DPS. A rogue must be in the kill count. If not, /reroll.
2- Traps.
3- Specific Evasion moments (like killing blade barrier spamming mobs)
4- Utility (UMD stuff)

Rogues weakness to work on:

1- total HP
2- non-sneak attack DPS

[Yajerman01]

My advice? Send tells to leader, and state your HP and AC, and say you have good DPS.

Hello, Im a 4'5 Halfing rogue who likes moonlit nights, creepy small caves and has a hankering for a pint of ale once in a while!!

Does an gimp tank have to send a tell explaining their HP or AC?

Any leader of a group takes a chance with a PUG. Biasm over not knowing what a rogue can do is simply stating the obvious, "its about you and your insecurities and ignorance". A good leader can make a group work well regardless of class.

tot he OP, stop joining bad PUG leaders! start up your own LFM and bring attention on your own. If a rogue is a bad player, his name will spread like a wildfire and he/she will come to the realization that his character is either a gimp or he/she plays like a gimp.

I have seen bad rogues, but I have seen more bad tanks, clerics, sorcs, wizzies, bards because ignorant leaders give them cart blanche over a rogue.

[Raithe]

It is also the easiest one to gimp out.
So people are suspicious.

Some people are, but not everyone. I normally take anyone who requests to join my group in the order the requests come in, but I have to admit I breathe a sigh of relief when I get rogue, ranger, bard, and paladin melee instead of all fighters or barbarians. Like I used to say when multi-classed were considered "gimp," the character with a wider range of abilities is likely to have a better understanding of the game and know what to do and when to do it. Classes that are purely designed as hackers and not much else usually attract the least skilled players.

[Uska]

Rogue is a great and powerfull class.
It is also the easiest one to gimp out.
So people are suspicious.

You will encounter the bad rogue very often:
The rogue who cant do the traps
The rogue without the DPS he should have (you know, that rogue with the bow that shoots twice then tumble backward)
The rogue with paper HP who dies as soon as an ogre looks his way

My advice? Send tells to leader, and state your HP and AC, and say you have good DPS.
Rogues who do all their jobs and have learned to compensate their weakness are a great asset, and you will make a name for yourself.

Rogues jobs, in order of importance:

1- DPS. A rogue must be in the kill count. If not, /reroll.2- Traps.
3- Specific Evasion moments (like killing blade barrier spamming mobs)
4- Utility (UMD stuff)

Rogues weakness to work on:

1- total HP
2- non-sneak attack DPS

I hate statements like this when will people learn kill count means nothing.

[shores11]

zergers dont like ranger? What?! Cant solo on a ranger? Im sorry, but i believe the best time in the rainbow solo competion was all rangers. with first being 5 mins, 2nd and 3rd, 6 mins.

Please explain how rangers arent a great solo/fast paced class?

Normally I would not respond to someone who totally spins what I said out of context. I believe in the "No Spin Zone". I never said a ranger was not a good solo character on the contrary I believe a ranger is one of the best at soloing. I know as well as I also have a level 16 ranger and do it often. I only said a rogue is not a good solo character, you need to read and respond to exactly what I said.

Wow, do you do that just because you need attention?

[CSFurious]

that dps bothers a lot of players when they look at the kill count & see that the rogue is out-killing them sometimes by 50 to 75%

a lot of the non-rogue player-base cannot handle that

start your own groups if you are bored waiting around, that is what i do with my rogue

[Talon_Moonshadow]

zergers dont like ranger? What?! Cant solo on a ranger? Im sorry, but i believe the best time in the rainbow solo competion was all rangers. with first being 5 mins, 2nd and 3rd, 6 mins.

Please explain how rangers arent a great solo/fast paced class?

I think there is just about as much Rgr hate as there is Rog hate. Especially AA hate.
And both come from some of the same players.

Of course everyone has diferent opinions, but people see Rgrs as archers, and they think ranged is gimped. They also think Rgrs have low HP and cannot tank.
Some realise this is not always true but think it is the exception not the rule.

And of course there are those who think Rogues are for traps. And most traps are meaningless. Or that a splash Rogue is a better choice.
And they view Rogue DPS as "situational" and think those situations are few for some reason.
They also think Rogues are squishy and can't tank.

But I've always though that a Rogue played properly did not matter if he was squishy or not, cause he should never get agro to begin with. Raids may be an exception of course. Cause even the best Rogue cannot take down a raid boss fast enough to not get agro. But for most quests, there is no reason that a properly played Rogue cannot get a high kill count (and not die all the time), even if he is squishy.

Of course that may be part of the problem....few properly played Rogues.

In fact, some of those same players who disciminate are part of the problem.
They have Rogues (and Rgrs) too. And they built theirs as a squishy trap monkey, and try to tank with him....and fail.... therefore all Rogues in their mind are just as useless.

I quiete often see LFMs put up by a Rogue who has turned off the Rog icon.
I see Rgrs do this too. But also Clerics and arcanes....guess they dont want any competion.
But I think they have some perfect party mindset and think their char is only good at a certain role; and fail to see what more than one of a non-(traditional)-DPS toon can bring to a party.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just realised I acidentilly necroed this thread. Sry.
I was refered to it from another current thread and got too involved reading it to remember when it was from......

Oh well. Read, comment, ignore....as you choose....sry.

[Aranticus]

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

you must not know what a ranger can do.......

[Aranticus]

I agree 100%, I have a level 16 rogue and love playing him. However as we all know a pure rogue is not a zerg type character and will not usually solo the higher level dungeons. Because of this the zergers do not like rogues and also don't really care for rangers much you will find.

The thing I love most about playinga rogue is that in DDO it is the one class that is most like pen and paper in that if in the right party truely helps the party with his/her abilities. Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

As a service to the community some people just do not know they are an idiot unless you point it out. Aranticus you are an idiot, now that you know please take action to correct the way the rest of the world sees you.

The only thing I said about a ranger in my original post is that there are some folks that do not like to have rangers in their group or LFM. Thats it, I made no other comment on a ranger. My main character class is a level 16 pure ranger and he is good and I usually have no problems getting into parties. There was a time when rangers no matter what or how good you were had it difficult to get in a party. Now if you have played the game more than 3 months you know what I am speaking of.

re-read your post again, zerger also dun really care for rangers. going around calling names does not move away from the fact that you implied that zergers do not like rangers which is not true. if 1 person get your post wrong, then prolly its is a misread, but 2 person, then it is prolly your fault

i have a ranger, i NEVER had a problem getting into parties. my ranger was built when 32 point came out and have not experienced the hate that you do. in fact just yesterday i was invited to 3 shroud runs after i completed one. sometimes it isnt about the class, its about the person behind the pc.......

[Uska]

As a service to the community some people just do not know they are an idiot unless you point it out. Aranticus you are an idiot, now that you know please take action to correct the way the rest of the world sees you.

The only thing I said about a ranger in my original post is that there are some folks that do not like to have rangers in their group or LFM. Thats it, I made no other comment on a ranger. My main character class is a level 16 pure ranger and he is good and I usually have no problems getting into parties. There was a time when rangers no matter what or how good you were had it difficult to get in a party. Now if you have played the game more than 3 months you know what I am speaking of.

You shouldnt call people names its very wrong and you should applogize(spelling)

[cdemeritt]

nbhs275:"You cant just make 2 giant paragraphs of ramshackled ideas, its too difficult to read and understand."

Sorry, But since I Did, Apparently I can! Anywho, since you said you really didn't read it too closely, I just want to point out two very Important lines. One, the second sentence "I just need to vent.", and the next to last sentence "I guess I'm just a bit annoyed." Based on your response, These should have been the two lines you should have focused on. If I didn't get that ramshackled batch of thoughts out of my head before I went to work, it is all that would have been on my mind all night.
2nd, most of what you said, I fully understand. I was just noting that so many still think all there is to a rogue is trap Disabling, and don't realize the full power they really have. Can't wait until he can get the WotAII, and the simple fact is I can get every trap I've come across so far, yet still steal the kill count from fighter types. (and yes I can outkill most fighters sometimes 4X and not just by kill stealing) Ok, GH quests have humbled me some, BAB not quite high enough yet to hit more than 50% of the time, yet. (yes +X weapons, Got it, Have them. Need to upgrade soon as I find some. got some nice stuff in the bank for next lvl) With 3 Capped toons, I do have some Clue of what I'm doing.

shores11: Do what I do and ignore the haters out there and continue to love and play your rogue, I do.

I plan on it. Seems like he's going to become yet another Guild only character, however. Kinda like my cleric. I don't Pug My Cleric.

[Borror0]

Sorry, But since I Did, Apparently I can!

Honestly, CD, making smaller paragraphs eases reading.

[Philam]

I agree with one of the replies. I have a dwarf rogue/ranger (10/6). When groups are looking for dps I always ask to join. Much to often I get no response, so I send a tell of my stats. 382 hp, 28 str(rams might 6min -30), crippling stike, duel wielding vorps, and umd at about 36 w/GH ( have 2 plan girds). Normally I get a invite not long after. There are many morons running around Stormreach (sometimes I'm one of them), so people tend to be cautious. And sometimes the people with the LFM's are one of the morons-just send a tell and if no response-you are probably better off anyways -then to jump in that group! Just my two copper pieces. Good luck!

[Yajerman01]

I agree with one of the replies. I have a dwarf rogue/ranger (10/6). When groups are looking for dps I always ask to join. Much to often I get no response, so I send a tell of my stats. 382 hp, 28 str(rams might 6min -30), crippling stike, duel wielding vorps, and umd at about 36 w/GH ( have 2 plan girds). Normally I get a invite not long after. There are many morons running around Stormreach (sometimes I'm one of them), so people tend to be cautious. And sometimes the people with the LFM's are one of the morons-just send a tell and if no response-you are probably better off anyways -then to jump in that group! Just my two copper pieces. Good luck!

If you have to go that far out of your way, then maybe there not worth your time and effort.

Im not disagreeing with you, but seriously, why explain yourself to a moron, as you put it. Start your own LFM, or if you "really" need the quest, and its really going slow and are having a really hard to grouping or forming a group of your own and have no choice, then I guess holding their hand and telling them about your character will suffice. However, I have always been able to find a group within a half hour or less.

I did experience the oppositite not to long ago though where my rogue splash fighter got rejected becasue I wasnt a "pure" rogue. ( I was fighter-rogue 2/2 on STK (normal). I laughed it off and joined a group 10 minutes later doing the same run. I saw on the LFM he got a 4 level "pure" rogue but not 5 minutes into our quest, we filled the last spot with the very same rogue that was in his group. Apparently it went south fast. Suffice to say, my rogue fighter is now 7/2 and I saw the leader recently, still level 3.