Surprized by the continued bias against rogues

[SableShadow]

THe shroud though is a little off on this
...
last time I had to prove to someone that a rogue can kill it was in tempest spine when a Barb said that no rogue could out kill him... I took exception to that and killed more than twice his number.

You're right. Point taken.

[Borror0]

THe shroud though is a little off on this

Exactly, in some quests it means something up to an extend. It's not perfect, but there is a relative correlation.

In the Shroud, not so much. Heck, most kills done by vorpal.

[Ree]

CS, might want to think a little about who you're talking to when you tell people off. Like maybe they're someone you know, and really likes and has fun playing this game despite the current jerk population telling her her opinion or sense of fun doesn't matter. I'm sorry you can't manage to play your rogue without 4 toughness feats, I can, so get over it.

Borro, your point is not the player or their skills, your point is that you're right and I'm wrong. How could I have failed to understand this from your vast forum history? Snarkiness aside, I understand this is how you have your fun, so have at it, I'm never one to try and dictate how people have fun in this game (or forums).

Oh, and my underlying point was that reroll is not always the answer, there, short and sweet. No "rant," no therapy, no brain transplants needed.

[cdemeritt]

Well, If nothing else this thread has highlighted the core problem I see in DDO at the moment. The imbalance in the game, the rift between the Powergaming Zergers and those who just want to play a game and have fun. The fact that the Powergaming Zergers cannot comprehend that some people are not Powergamming Zergers, and might find that things that could slow down the Zerg could be fun, or that less than optimal builds could be viable/enjoyable to play, is a problem.

Yes, the simple fact is that a 200 hp Elf DEX build isn't going to be able to melee as much as a 400 hp Dwarf STR build. But that doesn't mean that a 200 hp build a: can't be fun to play b: be a strong and useful teammate c: is totally useless. Maybe they won't be able to tank the Pitfiend, but so what if they are built and played correctly. But I'm not about the cookie-cutter builds anyways. My fighter has a -2 for intimate, and only 30 AC (gave up trying for the high end AC, for even if he had an AC of 65, it still wouldn't be enough) however, he can still hold Xyzzy's aggro long enough to be useful in the hound, and has Solid DPS Elsewhere. Yes in hindsight I should have put some effort into it, but... whatever. He may eventually be re-rolled, but not for a very long time, I have many open Character slots to fill first.

Sadly until the game comes back into balance, this will be the way of it. the Zergers will continue to dominate, and push there thoughts and opinions that any build that isn't X,Y,Z isn't worth playing. I have a number of thoughts about how to bring at least some balance back to the game, but I won't waste my time posting them, simply put, the Zergers wouldn't like some of them, and the swift and loud rebuking would be near instantaneous (yes, I've tried in the past). Turbine apparently feels the they are the core of their business and from what I can see will continue to adjust the game for them. The recent reduction in trap damage is evidence enough of this for me.

[branmakmuffin]

Yes, the simple fact is that a 200 hp Elf DEX build isn't going to be able to melee as much as a 400 hp Dwarf STR build. But that doesn't mean that a 200 hp build a: can't be fun to play b: be a strong and useful teammate c: is totally useless. Maybe they won't be able to tank the Pitfiend, but so what if they are built and played correctly. [...]

And presumably it won't be hard to find someone else willing to "tank the Pitfiend."

[...] Turbine apparently feels the [zergers] are the core of their business and from what I can see will continue to adjust the game for them. The recent reduction in trap damage is evidence enough of this for me.

I think zergers are the core of DDO's customer base. Sad, but true. That forces those who like to actually think our way through quests (as opposed to "twitch our way through quests") to be ever-vigilant and on the lookout for signs we may be in the presence of the slack-jawed minions of the Emperor Zerg.

[Borror0]

I'm sorry you can't manage to play your rogue without 4 toughness feats, I can, so get over it.

Easier to play != Can't play

(Although I think four Toughness feat is overkill.)

Borro, your point is not the player or their skills, your point is that you're right and I'm wrong. How could I have failed to understand this from your vast forum history?

Think whatever. Seems it makes you happy.

The fact that the Powergaming Zergers cannot comprehend that some people are not Powergamming Zergers, and might find that things that could slow down the Zerg could be fun, or that less than optimal builds could be viable/enjoyable to play, is a problem.

I'd say it rather has highlighted there are two kind of pain in this game:

• Those who make a character squishier than they can handle
• Those who under-estimate the power of rogues and thus don't include them in your LFMs

Zergers will continue to dominate, and push there thoughts and opinions that any build that isn't X,Y,Z isn't worth playing.

I find that ironic coming from someone in a guild of 'zergers'.

Don't define idiot as a zerger, they're not the same. You know that you and Malcis are always welcomed in my parties, because even though you both are some real squishies you do carry your own weight. And, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a zerger. So is a big part of the guild.

Just be careful of the words you use.

[CSFurious]

i apologize for my shortcomings

notwithstanding same, your rogue is still squishy

a rogue can never have too many hitpoints because it is a 1d6 hitpoint class

IMO pure rogues are gimped & so are squishy rogues (they are all sort of squishy except for those **** dwarves)

therefore, you need to do everything you can to get more hitpoints, i.e., take fighter level/s, toughness feat/s, minos legen, equipment, buffs, etc.

hey, if you think you are contributing in VOD by using heal scrolls & hitting the hero with a remove curse wand after you do the traps, i completely understand

i like to fight the boss

later

CS, might want to think a little about who you're talking to when you tell people off. Like maybe they're someone you know, and really likes and has fun playing this game despite the current jerk population telling her her opinion or sense of fun doesn't matter. I'm sorry you can't manage to play your rogue without 4 toughness feats, I can, so get over it.

Borro, your point is not the player or their skills, your point is that you're right and I'm wrong. How could I have failed to understand this from your vast forum history? Snarkiness aside, I understand this is how you have your fun, so have at it, I'm never one to try and dictate how people have fun in this game (or forums).

Oh, and my underlying point was that reroll is not always the answer, there, short and sweet. No "rant," no therapy, no brain transplants needed.

[seldarin]

Your problem is all about gear

100 base
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
80 Con (11 base + 1 tome + 6 item + 2 rage)
30 GFL
18 Toughness
18 Toughness (Minos Legend)
45 Exceptional HP
321 HP

Besides, you're ranged so you have a lesser need for HP.

Feats are spread thin enough as it is, not sure what feat i would drop to take toughness, being im elf/drow, dont have enhancements available for that. I did state that i dont have GFL and i dont have Minos Helm on rogue either.



You got it wrong. People don't think AC, Str and HP are all that matters.

Majority of people i have come across always hit me with those things, so sorry to disagree but in my personal experiences no im not wrong. That is what i have experienced and that is all i can comment on.

Most people will agree that a good Dex-based rogue need:

• High Dex, about 16 Dex at creation sounds good.
• 12 Con is good for elves/drows, 14 for humans/halflings and 16 Con for dwarves and WFs
• AC is optional
• Enough Int to get the skills you want
• Cha for UMD
• Try to squeeze as many points in Str as you need without hurting the rest of the build. If melee, 13 with tomes is a minimum for Power attack.

Both! 200 HPs is too low. You should strive for more! But the gu who thinks rogue are only good for trap is a really idiot.

What i strive for is to play my toon with the limitations i have placed upon it, and with the benefits it has, without being a detriment to the party. As stated my rogue is ranged based, i do melee when i need too, but i know when to get in and when to get out, without jeopardising the party or being a burden to the healer, i bring my own healing and often help out with it too.



Two points:

1. Leading kill count in the Shroud means nothnig at all
   
   I never take any stock from kill counts, my point was to illustrate that many people think that rogues are useless unless it involves traps.
   
2. A 700 HP barbarian is gimped, he sacrificed too much DPS for extra HP.

Responses in Red, i think.

[seldarin]

THe shroud though is a little off on this


part 1 you havea roaming team that get the most kills

My point was about drawing attention to a rogue being able to do more than just traps, and that you shouldnt only include a rogue in a quest that has traps and exclude them from everything else.

part 2 ... you could get some kills there... but mostly its stat damage or Vorpals... luck of the die means more than class

3... nothing to kill

4. Vorpals again

5. 5 things to kill and its all team oriented



last time I had to prove to someone that a rogue can kill it was in tempest spine when a Barb said that no rogue could out kill him... I took exception to that and killed more than twice his number.

Aesop

My rogue was using vorpals, wasnt about kill count, was about drawing attention to versality of toon, rather than pigeonholing as a trapmonkey.

[kamimitsu]

i apologize for my shortcomings

notwithstanding same, your rogue is still squishy

a rogue can never have too many hitpoints because it is a 1d6 hitpoint class

IMO pure rogues are gimped & so are squishy rogues (they are all sort of squishy except for those **** dwarves)

therefore, you need to do everything you can to get more hitpoints, i.e., take fighter level/s, toughness feat/s, minos legen, equipment, buffs, etc.

hey, if you think you are contributing in VOD by using heal scrolls & hitting the hero with a remove curse wand after you do the traps, i completely understand

i like to fight the boss

later

I can't really reply to a "all pure [insert class] are gimped" statement. In an ever-evolving game, such a statement is, at best, valid for a short period of time and, at wost, likely to make one sound foolish (Ok... that's not really the worst, but I don't like to be rude.)

Do I wish I could have more hit points? Sure. Would I sacrifice much of my build to get them? Not really. That's the position that I, and many rogues are in. I'd rather manage aggro and play 'smart' (Ok, play 'not dumb')... and I have yet to find a fight that I can't melee. That may change in the future, and you can say "I told you so." When and if that happens, that is.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but my rogue has 240 HP. I also really enjoy fighting Sally in VoD (I netted the kill in my 1st run in there, to my surprise). He's easy enough to stay behind, and there are usually more than a few folks keeping his attention. Orthons? I'll take them too. Devils? All day long, and twice on Sundays. The party clerics are usually casting Mass Heal anyway, so it's not like I'm forcing them to use up more resources. The only REAL problem I have in VoD is the Kamikaze Fire Bats (but I'm not the only one in that boat).

There's nothing wrong with having more hit points... heck, I'd love to have about 40-400 more. I just don't want it more than say, Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, etc. But I wonder, if I had those hit points, would I play worse/recklessly?

On a side note, I'm really enjoying this thread. I wonder how long it will go on?

Shiz

[Talon_Moonshadow]

QFT - chased off more than one barb by outkilling them with my sword and board rogue. They just can't seem to wrap their heads around the joys of cleave and a pocketful of extra d6s.

You just gave me an idea for a Rogue with Whirlwind attack.
Jump into the middle of a mob, hit diplomacy, than hit whirlwind attack..........then run for my life...

[Aspenor]

i apologize for my shortcomings

notwithstanding same, your rogue is still squishy

a rogue can never have too many hitpoints because it is a 1d6 hitpoint class

IMO pure rogues are gimped & so are squishy rogues (they are all sort of squishy except for those **** dwarves)

therefore, you need to do everything you can to get more hitpoints, i.e., take fighter level/s, toughness feat/s, minos legen, equipment, buffs, etc.

hey, if you think you are contributing in VOD by using heal scrolls & hitting the hero with a remove curse wand after you do the traps, i completely understand

i like to fight the boss

later

This entire post is completely absurd.

My 222 hp rogue melees Suulo and Harry, and particularly against Suulo and the Orthons in VOD, the DPS against the monster is noticeably different when a rogue with 8d6 backstab is meleeing.

I notice the entire party's damage approximately DOUBLES when my rogue engages these monsters. If you think scrolling HEAL is all a rogue can do in VOD, you're confused.

[Hordo]

I understand your frustration, but I think it comes in cycles. I went for a long time without getting any real play with my rogue, and then I get calls to switch to her to join up on a Shroud run or whatever. I've never understood why some things are in-favor, out-of-favor, but I just play. I rarely have trouble finding a group (unless they already know who I am ) but can get things going with my Guild or PUG as needed with no problems. Anyway, good luck with your rogue!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I keep trying to read everyone's posts before commenting here.....but the more I read, the more emotional I get....

I can't believe the huge amount of naive views and misinformation about Rogues and other classes.......etc.

Many rogues out there are indeed badly built/played. But not necessarily anymore than other classes.
Low lvl rogues are very squishy and make many mistakes....that is true.

Many rogues are trap monkey builds and not great combatants....well...partially true.
We all asked them to be! That is the only reason people even invite rogues.....traps!

But even if they were built that way from day one......they still get great sneak attack damage (if they can hit) and they can learn to do more, and they can get the same uber equip as anyone else.......so no reason they should remain gimped, no matter what the build IMO. (besides, equip/player matter more than build anyday)

Low HP does not mean squishy! I know I'm not going to win this argument, cause I know everyone in DDO disagrees with me here.
But none of my builds have huge amounts of HP.....in fact most do not break 200....or barely do.
And with the exception of being beat on by a crowd or failing a save in an elite trap......they are not squishy.
Nor do they die half of much as your 600+ HP Barbs and are often the last man standing.

Agro management can keep you alive.
Shield blocking in a corner, with your back to a wall, and potion/wand healing can keep you alive!
Fearsome can keep you alive!
Buffs!
Ranged!
Jumping away when yo uare getting beat on!
Having an AC better than a naked barbarian.
Using a shield!

Evasion adds hundred of phantom HP in most quests.
Just watch the red bars when the flamestrikes start falling and see who the squishies really are.

On another note: Any rogue can change his skill focus as he lvls up, and become an almost different build in just couple of lvls.
For instance, if a guy didn't put points into UMD until lvl10, he could max it out by lvl 12 if he wanted to.
Anyone can respect their feats with money and dragonshards (bought with money)
Anyone can buy uber weps from the AH (with money)

Any rogue can go from a wimpy trap monkey to a decent DPSer, in a very short time.

I wanted to add more to this, but its already too long....sry.

[SableShadow]

I've never understood why some things are in-favor, out-of-favor,

Because 'best spec' changes from mod to mod, and from quest to quest. Part of why I don't try to reroll every time I become NBS.

but I just play.

Well said.

[Samadhi]

Can you make a low HP build work? Yes.

The point of the thread, though, is why there is such a bias against rogues. The reason is that there are many, many low HP builds that do not have either the strategy or twitch skills to make it work.

Please understand the difference. The point of the thread is not to say a low HP rogue cannot work. The point is that the majority of the low HP builds out there are NOT making it work; hence the hate against us all.

Thanks.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So many other point to make....sry.

You can zerge on a rogue!
But better to zerge with a buddy.....use diplo....kill!

Str does more damage....yes.
But only a little.
Rogues can use greater banes, vorpals, etc.
No reason to think they are useless without sneak attack damage. The same creatures that cannot be sneak attacked cannot be crit raged either.

My baby sister could beat on a shroud portal with a greater construct bane baby spoon and take them down just about as fast as anyone else......she could also vorpal an orthan on a 20. (and I don't even have a baby sister)
Disrupt an undead, smite a construct.......................just like the average barb.

If he can't hit, he can get a Divine Power clickie.

Not sure why you guys have such low SA damage numbers......mine at lvl 12 is an average of 50 pts on a NON-CRIT! And my best weps are Flaming Rapier/SS of Pure good. Oh, and I crit a lot too.....driving that up to about 75+ on average.
And I'm dex based at that. (might just be lucky dice rolling, but those are typical totals from all the red numbers I see on my screen)

Edit: Looking at exact middle of the road damage. 12 + 24 + 3 + 3 = 42 So maybe my numbers above are slightly high.....sry. Assuming I'm not missing anything.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Can you make a low HP build work? Yes.

The point of the thread, though, is why there is such a bias against rogues. The reason is that there are many, many low HP builds that do not have either the strategy or twitch skills to make it work.

Please understand the difference. The point of the thread is not to say a low HP rogue cannot work. The point is that the majority of the low HP builds out there are NOT making it work; hence the hate against us all.

Thanks.

I agree that most do not make it work.
Most do not make high HP builds work either.

And my rogue actually suffers more from low HP than my other chars. More agro, and an agressive play style....Diplomacy doesn't always work, and I do get in over my head a lot. Get caught up in the SA blood lust.

I do understand where a lot of rogue hate comes from.
And ranger hate.

But I don't see threads about the scorching ray spamming wizard who runs from the troll in VON 1 and never lets anyone else get close enough to attack......then dies.........5 times.
Etc.

there is bias against Pallies as being gimped melees......but people still take them as tanks.

People call rogues mana sponges, and quote low HP, low AC.
But don't say the same about naked babarians who take 5 heal scrolls to get back to full health.
And the rogue should be able to self heal.......(I know many don't)(but neither do rangers, sorcs, pallies......)(gotta love it when my Rogue cures a wizard's curse with a wand of a wizard spell)

[Thrudh]

Oh, and my underlying point was that reroll is not always the answer, there, short and sweet. No "rant," no therapy, no brain transplants needed.

I'm a bit surprised by people bagging on Ree.... Did you guys READ her posts? She stated her position very well... and it's something Borror would agree with, I would think...

"A good player can make a less-than-optimal character work just fine."

Reroll is not always the answer... You CAN work around a character's poor build choices... It's bascially the same as running some crazy multi-class... a good player can make it work...

There's more to this game than playing the exact perfect flavor-of-the-month build....

[Thrudh]

By the way, Rogues are very good in the Shroud....

So the portals go down a little slower....

Rogues have the highest DPS in the game... yes, it's situational... and guess what... Part 4 and 5 of the Shroud IS the PERFECT situation for back-stab.. You have ONE target and you've got 5-7 guys attacking him... he can only have aggro on one at a time... Any rogue in the group is going to be doing that theoretical maximum DPS almost the whole time... Put two rogues in the group, and at least one (and most of the time both) will be getting back-stab damage every swing.