Module 8 needs shield loot

[Depravity]

/signed

Currently running two S&B tactics rogues (they work better than they sound), and would really like to see a tactics shield. I think your proposals may be a bit overpowered, but given the current attitude about s&b fighters, it may be what we need.

[Borror0]

Currently running two S&B tactics rogues (they work better than they sound), and would really like to see a tactics shield. I think your proposals may be a bit overpowered, but given the current attitude about s&b fighters, it may be what we need.

"Ask more than you need"

Honestly, they may be too powerful but they are not unhealthy... if that is any clear.

[Depravity]

"Ask more than you need"

Honestly, they may be too powerful but they are not unhealthy... if that is any clear.

Makes sense, and that's where I was going. s&b needs a nice boost, and something that's as overblown as everything else is would count.
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[DasLurch]

The Green Steel Shield

Built from the same shroud recipies as the weapons. Use Filaments of Toil instead of Ore of Trevail and Horns (Med for Sm Shield, Lg for Heavy version)to make the items in it's blank state (can do this with armours as well). Keep a decent DR on it (nothing too obscene), and have a high Spell Failure value attached as well. Imagine the possibilities for sword and board types

[DasLurch]

What would really help out S & B fighter types are some feats that grant some more AC and DR to them for using ANY shield. But then I might be asking for too much from everyone, seeing as how we still haven't gotten a summer update this year and that fix patch went oh so well, why should they all start working on things that would add more new things to the game now?

[Depravity]

What would really help out S & B fighter types are some feats that grant some more AC and DR to them for using ANY shield. But then I might be asking for too much from everyone, seeing as how we still haven't gotten a summer update this year and that fix patch went oh so well, why should they all start working on things that would add more new things to the game now?

Well, there are DR feats - shield mastery and improved shield mastery both add 3 DR each when blocking. Dwarves can add another three from enhancements. Being able to add an extra 9 DR is nothing to turn your nose up at. You can think of it like hitting shift = holding a DR specced barb up in front of you.

Presumably fighters are coming up soon on the PrE slate soon - rogues, rangers, and barbs have all gotten some goodies, paladins are being tinkered with. Hopefully one of those will be some manner of fighter-inna-can enhancement to reflect a defensively specialized character. Doesn't help the other s&b builds so much, but it could be nice.

Honestly, just putting some nice crafting options for shields into the next crafting update would be a great start. The current raid loot crafting makes twf vastly preferable in most cases, simply because s&b types don't have access to a second slot (offhand) representing even more item consolidation.

That said, I want that marut shield for both of my tactics rogues.

[Borror0]

[...] and something that's as overblown as everything else is would count.

My point was more that there aren't +4 dodge AC bonus or stuff like that. Sure, it gives S&B a **** load of bonuses on one item... but that's about it.

There is nothing screaming 'nerf me' on those shield, so let's just leave them as they are and if they need toneing down let the Dev weaken them as they see fit. Balancing items is, IMO, the hardest thing to do when it comes to balancing a MMO. I think it's the hardest one to htink of all the repercussions it may have. Like these shield, I think the only way to see how 'uber' they are would be to try to see what they would do on existing S&B builds like mine, Riot's, etc. AND then try to abuse those shield's ability if possible.

[Depravity]

My point was more that there aren't +4 dodge AC bonus or stuff like that. Sure, it gives S&B a **** load of bonuses on one item... but that's about it.

There is nothing screaming 'nerf me' on those shield, so let's just leave them as they are and if they need toneing down let the Dev weaken them as they see fit. Balancing items is, IMO, the hardest thing to do when it comes to balancing a MMO. I think it's the hardest one to htink of all the repercussions it may have. Like these shield, I think the only way to see how 'uber' they are would be to try to see what they would do on existing S&B builds like mine, Riot's, etc. AND then try to abuse those shield's ability if possible.

I'm not claiming any of them need a nerf, playtest unseen, although the hero shield comes close - compare it to a secondary shroud weapon built as an offhand. +6 cha and +4 insight, call the fear immunity equivalent to a second tier ability, and the rest of it looks like mineral. What I'm saying is that they're as overpowered (versus anything in P&P and earlier mods) as the items that are making the twf builds so amazingly all around good. That is balancing, even if it they do make me worry about what the level 20 stuff is going to have to look like to keep people interested.

Actually, a good chunk of dodge on a shield would not be horrible either - how much would the doge ritual need to be increased to get s&b builds back to the forefront of the AC race? The twf builds get the icy raiments on top of the insight bonus from a shroud weapon that can be held in the off hand. Why shouldn't we get the same with a shield and weapon?

[Borror0]

Actually, a good chunk of dodge on a shield would not be horrible either - how much would the doge ritual need to be increased to get s&b builds back to the forefront of the AC race? The twf builds get the icy raiments on top of the insight bonus from a shroud weapon that can be held in the off hand. Why shouldn't we get the same with a shield and weapon?

Because that's making the same mistake... a fourth time.

[Thrudh]

Because that's making the same mistake... a fourth time.

Put Dodge on a named sheild, and on a named armor.... Heck, add all kinds of Dodge items if you want....

Then put a max on Dodge bonuses, so you can only get so much from your items, be it the chattering ring, the new cool dodge shield, the icy raiments.

However, maybe Combat Expertise would need to be changed though to NOT be a Dodge bonus

[flamberg]

+5 mith tower shield 3 clickies of level 14 barkskin dodge bonus 3 might help on the ac problem lol. Hey i wish big.

[krud]

Heroic theme- Pure Good, Protection +5, Charisma +6, +4 Insight AC, +2 morale bonus to attacks/saves/skills, Fear immunity

Aside from the specific suggestions above, random shields could be made more attractive by allowing them to include properties like Seeker, Weighted, Backstabbing, or any other weapon property that applies to more than just that item.

/agreed.

A simple fix like including weighted/vertigo/backstab on shields would help tactics fighters. I haven't had to get a new shield since level 8. There just isn't much out there that beats a plain +5 mith shield for a regular tank (there's only the hound shields if you're a turtling intimitank). They don't even have dragonscale shields, which should have been an obvious addition when the GH was released.

btw - I'm all over the heroic themed shield. It would free up 2 slots on my tactics rogue/ftr, and allow me to add dps instead of +4AC tier III upgrade to my radiance rapier. ..gimme, gimme, gimme

[artvan_delet]

Just make greensteel shields craftable like weapons. If you can put +4 AC or extra healing or other upgrades on a weapon that does damage, there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to put those things on a shield. TWF can already exceed AC over S/B, give us s/b types some help here.

[Shagn]

I would really hate to see greensteel armor and shields as the only effective armor and shields in the game. Talk about boring. Day 1 after the new mod everybody will be wearing the same gear.

There needs to be a retro fix to armor/shields that makes existing gear worthwhile, otherwise every single armor and shield will be gimped overnight and everybody will be wearing greensteel underwear. Why shields and armor haven't increased AC beyond lvl8 is a major design flaw.

[sephiroth1084]

How about:

Indomitable Bulwark

+5 tower shield (base AC: 6, max Dex: 4), blocking DR 15/-, passive DR 10/- (stacks w/ blocking DR), +3 Intimidate (stacks with everything), and an effect that prevents the wielder from being knocked prone by bull rush, overrun, trample, trip, or knockdown effects (such as from air elementals) or knocked backward by similar effects (and those from swinging giants).

I don't see enough shields with altered base stats like we have for armor (the dragon plates, Centurion Armor, etc...).

[Turial]

....passive DR 10/- (stacks w/ blocking DR), .....

Too powerful. There is a reason it takes barbarians till level 20 to get significant DR/- and to just hand that to anyone who can pick up a shield is dangerous. Also the spell stoneskin, while it prevents 10 non-adamantine inflicted damage, breaks down over a number of attacks while this would be constant.

Now something that had a rechargable DR that broke down would be interesting.

Aspect of stone: This item provides (more later.)

[Angelus_dead]

Too powerful. There is a reason it takes barbarians till level 20 to get significant DR/-

DR 10/- is powerful, but not necessarily overpowered depending on what else is on the item you use to get it. After all, holding a shield causes a serious impairment to your offensive combat abilities- and even to your defensive AC.

Certainly a +1 Tower of DR 10/- would not be overpowered for mod8 raid loot. The important question is how many other benefits the shield could be allowed beyond that.

[Turial]

DR 10/- is powerful, but not necessarily overpowered depending on what else is on the item you use to get it. After all, holding a shield causes a serious impairment to your offensive combat abilities- and even to your defensive AC.

Certainly a +1 Tower of DR 10/- would not be overpowered for mod8 raid loot. The important question is how many other benefits the shield could be allowed beyond that.

True, I was a bit hasty but the proposed DR 15 + DR 10/- passive would be a bit much in the game we currently have where a "well geared" caster can solo the VOD raid.

[sephiroth1084]

Too powerful. There is a reason it takes barbarians till level 20 to get significant DR/- and to just hand that to anyone who can pick up a shield is dangerous. Also the spell stoneskin, while it prevents 10 non-adamantine inflicted damage, breaks down over a number of attacks while this would be constant.

Now something that had a rechargable DR that broke down would be interesting.

Aspect of stone: This item provides (more later.)

I wasn't aware that barbarians EVER attained meaningful DR.

Yeah, it may be a bit much, but so are TWFers getting more AC and higher DPS than someone with a shield. Making sword and board worthwhile is likely going to come down to: what abilities can be put on a shield that cannot be found on an off-hand weapon. The most obvious of which is DR. Currently, a player can "turtle up" to access a shield's DR, but that is useful in only certain situations. Giving shield users a benefit in non-turtle situations doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

As for the total DR number of DR 25/-, that is [almost] attainable (with difficulty) with Levik's now, but getting to it totally handicaps offensive output by requiring 2 feats and 3 enhancements.

[Turial]

I wasn't aware that barbarians EVER attained meaningful DR.

Yeah, it may be a bit much, but so are TWFers getting more AC and higher DPS than someone with a shield. Making sword and board worthwhile is likely going to come down to: what abilities can be put on a shield that cannot be found on an off-hand weapon. The most obvious of which is DR. Currently, a player can "turtle up" to access a shield's DR, but that is useful in only certain situations. Giving shield users a benefit in non-turtle situations doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

As for the total DR number of DR 25/-, that is [almost] attainable (with difficulty) with Levik's now, but getting to it totally handicaps offensive output by requiring 2 feats and 3 enhancements.

I said significant...not meaning full I agree that to make S&B worthwhile except as a occasional "OMG" moment will require adding things to shields that can't come on weapons. DR though while nice is less creative in that at some point there will likely be an enhancement or feat added that will do the same. And we want to boost shields AC and DPS without completely blowing two weapon out of the water.

Perhaps a better way to go about it is to look at all the good damage addons that another weapon can give and figure out how to balance that type of power on a shield towards both defense and offense.