AC competition

[nbhs275]

Only partly true. And, most of the gear they have access to, so, too, do the heavy armor tanks. With lower ability scores, that set of +8 bracers wouldn't be such a huge leap above non-Dex-based AC characters.

Note that straight rangers have comparable AC to fighters and paladins, while it is the adding of a second stat (Wis) to AC, and the icy raiment that push their AC up so high. The Wis + Icy combines for ~+11 AC.

I think your other point is valid though: the fact that they achieve this AC with little build effort is really the issue. Those ranger/monks have higher AC AND, since they sacrifice little to attain that AC, have better offense still than fighters and paladins (often better, even, than offensively minded fighters and paladins).

You have obviously never partied with a truly good paladin or fighter have you? Most of these monk/ranger builds that are running around the streets are weak sauce in the damage department, and really only gain the extreme AC advantage at high end.

I would like to see something to boost the full 15-16 level monks, but kinda pull back on the extreme splashyness of monk 2.

[Borror0]

You have obviously never partied with a truly good paladin or fighter have you? Most of these monk/ranger builds that are running around the streets are weak sauce in the damage department, and really only gain the extreme AC advantage at high end.

You're telling me that you know S&B fighters that can out-DPS a Str-based ranger? I'd love to see that.

[sephiroth1084]

Borro, the monk/ranger builds aren't Str based, that I was aware of.

That said, a S&B fighter or paladin is still fighting with 1 weapon, and will not have all that much more Str than a Tempest monk/ranger, which is the type of character posting AC in the 70-80+ range. They will have comparable Str, while attacking faster, and applying more weapon effects during their attacks. What has that got to do with a paladin or fighter being good, nbh?

How much Str is going to be lost? Figure, at minimum, such a character will usually try to hit a 13 base Str to take Power Attack. Let's assume, at minimum again, that said character takes a 10 Str and relies on a +3 tome to hit 13, with a +6 item and 1 point from somewhere else (splash 1 level of fighter, be human, make a weapon with Str on it, whatever), they'd be at 20, vs. the 30 most S&B guys are looking at, so 5 fewer points of damage/hit. S&B has an option for better threat-ranged weapons, while the monk/ranger is relegated to the sub-par kama, but I don't think the slightly higher crit % or damage and MAYBE 5 points difference in base damage will make up for the extra attacks and additional effects that come with them.

That is to say nothing of favored enemy, halfling guile enhancements, etc...

[Inspire]

You're telling me that you know S&B fighters that can out-DPS a Str-based ranger? I'd love to see that.

Rawr! Untouchable Can Out DPS Pearce And Woad Together!... *Cough*

[Desteria]

Borro, the monk/ranger builds aren't Str based, that I was aware of.

That said, a S&B fighter or paladin is still fighting with 1 weapon, and will not have all that much more Str than a Tempest monk/ranger, which is the type of character posting AC in the 70-80+ range. They will have comparable Str, while attacking faster, and applying more weapon effects during their attacks. What has that got to do with a paladin or fighter being good, nbh?

How much Str is going to be lost? Figure, at minimum, such a character will usually try to hit a 13 base Str to take Power Attack. Let's assume, at minimum again, that said character takes a 10 Str and relies on a +3 tome to hit 13, with a +6 item and 1 point from somewhere else (splash 1 level of fighter, be human, make a weapon with Str on it, whatever), they'd be at 20, vs. the 30 most S&B guys are looking at, so 5 fewer points of damage/hit. S&B has an option for better threat-ranged weapons, while the monk/ranger is relegated to the sub-par kama, but I don't think the slightly higher crit % or damage and MAYBE 5 points difference in base damage will make up for the extra attacks and additional effects that come with them.

That is to say nothing of favored enemy, halfling guile enhancements, etc...

NOTE the 15 ranger 1 monk build is NOT limited to a kama they can use the full ranger weapon set and retain the Wis bonus to AC, the wisdome to ac is only lost if you wear armor or use a sheild.

The build that go formor monk levle for centered ac and wind/ocean stance ofr more AC are limited to kamas.

That all being said my Tempest monk (6rgr/10monk) who DID not go for PA (8 str base), but in the perfect situation pally etc, (but fightign not tumbling or useign clicky boosts), should hit 90AC, still hits for 25-35ish +8 guile, +8 thrane goggles, +1 force, +1d4 slicing, +2d6 holy Per kama, I know a S&B fighter will do more base per hit, and definetly have better crit options but that extra 16+1+1d4+2d6 points of damage on the off hand at 10% faster speed all the time has got to add up way FAST and i would not be at all suprised if i was out damageing a S&B fighter, (maby I'll look up the dmage calc and run the numbers then edit them in here) and this guy was build with the aim of AC AC AC SAVES dps, sac a Few points of AC off the top end you might ocational get hit on eliet by harry on less then a 20 and you could add a bunch more dmaage.

***EDIT OMFG....

So i ran the number throught this damage calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/index.php
NOTE: this does NOT add the the 2 extra attacks ddo grants twf now so off hand was onyl getitng 3 attacks per set, I added 10% more swings for tempest so kwaiii's DPS should be higher thsi was don with average buffs verses what we fight 90% of the tiem at high levels namly raid bosses/mobs I weighted in towards the fighter in a lot of ways IE i gave them both GS weapons i assuemd the fighter had a khopesh and all spec feats I made both haflings since i was useing my guy and assumed the AC build S&B some how bought a 18 str still ie 16 starting after the -2 compared to my 8 starting, I gave the fighter a Bloodstone while omitting one for me since i dont use one normaly (dont have a spair for one thing), I'm useign dul Kamas...
The Fighter came out at about 105 DPS Kwaiii Came out at 138 DPS, I am not built for DPS, I'm a build for AC above all else, if a S&B fighter can not even come close to me, (and this was missing 2 of my off hand attacks), they can not come close to ANY twf robe AC/DPS build.

[QuantumFX]

What?

OK it will require you to read the d20 ruleset to understand touch attacks. A lot of spells in P&P don't have a save because you have to make a ranged touch attack with them. Off the top of my head: all the Orb spells and Enervation.

By not including Touch attacks Turbine screwed over anyone who would have a high touch AC. (Rogues and Monks are the 2 classes that are heavily hit by this.) This is partially offset by omitting the surprise rules.

[Borror0]

Borro, the monk/ranger builds aren't Str based, that I was aware of.

They can perfectly be. I have desgined a 28 base Str dwarven ranger that can reach 70 AC while TWF.

How much Str is going to be lost?

2 Str, to be accurate. 28 vs 30.

while the monk/ranger is relegated to the sub-par kama

They are not. They can use khopeshes, dwarven axes and other good weapons as they like.

[flamberg]

Wow I leave for couple of days and this thread has gone great. My tank doesn't have the beutiful feat of CE. This is what he wears and He maxes the dex bonus to a +6.

Defender plate alchemy bonus in place
leviks bracers
Leviks defender
Tharnes goggles
Chattering ring
Disease Immunity of GFL
the +6 wis dragon helm
Greater fire resist fear immunity poison immunity greensteel cloak
Con 6 belt
+6 dex gloves
boot of the innocent
Head of good fortune
until greensteel is done a amulet of the stormreaver

Yes i have great gear I can intim on vod with a helm and cloak change but dang with buffs only getting in the 60s hp 436 this is a 28 pt build from beta days and hes a human fighter.

[sephiroth1084]

OK it will require you to read the d20 ruleset to understand touch attacks. A lot of spells in P&P don't have a save because you have to make a ranged touch attack with them. Off the top of my head: all the Orb spells and Enervation.

By not including Touch attacks Turbine screwed over anyone who would have a high touch AC. (Rogues and Monks are the 2 classes that are heavily hit by this.) This is partially offset by omitting the surprise rules.

No need for the sarcasm or demeaning tone. I misread the post to which I responded as such. In any case, many of those same spells may be avoided simply by paying attention and moving. Yeah, lack of touch attack mechanics has had an odd affect on the game, and the balance of classes, but I find the ray mechanic in DDO to be more engrossing. I don't like watching my friends play City of Heroes where half the attacks someone throws at them will hunt them down around corners to go off.

[QuantumFX]

No need for the sarcasm or demeaning tone. I misread the post to which I responded as such. In any case, many of those same spells may be avoided simply by paying attention and moving. Yeah, lack of touch attack mechanics has had an odd affect on the game, and the balance of classes, but I find the ray mechanic in DDO to be more engrossing. I don't like watching my friends play City of Heroes where half the attacks someone throws at them will hunt them down around corners to go off.

Wasn't meant to be demeaning. The rules on Touch Attacks really don't have a readers digest version.
Also, the physics portion of this game do a horrible job at emulating Touch AC. They do an OK job emulating Range increments though.

[Alcides]

The AC problem will be partially fixed when paladins get the Divine Shield feat/enhancement(which adds charisma bonus to AC while using a shield for about 1 min at level 16). Of course, we can't give paladins teeth again because they were too good before mod 3

Even better, allow Paladins and Clerics to get the Saint Template with enhancements(which adds Wisdom bonus to AC with no penalties)

[sephiroth1084]

Wasn't meant to be demeaning. The rules on Touch Attacks really don't have a readers digest version.
Also, the physics portion of this game do a horrible job at emulating Touch AC. They do an OK job emulating Range increments though.

The AC problem will be partially fixed when paladins get the Divine Shield feat/enhancement(which adds charisma bonus to AC while using a shield for about 1 min at level 16). Of course, we can't give paladins teeth again because they were too good before mod 3

Even better, allow Paladins and Clerics to get the Saint Template with enhancements(which adds Wisdom bonus to AC with no penalties)

The Saint template is SO BROKEN! Not to mention, things like level adjustments don't exist in DDO, making it even more so. Drow at least are balanced against the 32 point build (after being nerfed).

Wasn't meant to be demeaning. The rules on Touch Attacks really don't have a readers digest version.
Also, the physics portion of this game do a horrible job at emulating Touch AC. They do an OK job emulating Range increments though.

True enough. Many rules in D&D 3.5 can give all but the most savvy rules lawyer a headache.

I don't agree with the physics portion. I don't think they make ANY attempt at emulating touch AC. Yeah, I'd have liked touch spells and incorporeal touch attacks to function as intended, but the way arrows, ray spells, fireballs, etc... function add much to the game and its transformation from a turn-based game to a real-time one.

[Alcides]

The Saint template is SO BROKEN! Not to mention, things like level adjustments don't exist in DDO, making it even more so. Drow at least are balanced against the 32 point build (after being nerfed).

Yeah, the saint template is pretty broken, and the wisdom bonus to AC is an Insight bonus(which wouldn't stack with greensteel items). Of course they could give characters with a majority of paladin or cleric levels something decent for hitting high favor. Although, I think the Divine Shield feat/enhancement (adding charisma bonus as an unnamed bonus to shield AC) would be pretty nice for battle clerics and paladins that want to get AC on par with these TWF AC builds. And since you need to be wearing to shield to use this ability, it won't stack with monk wisdom to AC.

[oogly54]

NOTE the 15 ranger 1 monk build is NOT limited to a kama they can use the full ranger weapon set and retain the Wis bonus to AC, the wisdome to ac is only lost if you wear armor or use a sheild.

The build that go formor monk levle for centered ac and wind/ocean stance ofr more AC are limited to kamas.

That all being said my Tempest monk (6rgr/10monk) who DID not go for PA (8 str base), but in the perfect situation pally etc, (but fightign not tumbling or useign clicky boosts), should hit 90AC, still hits for 25-35ish +8 guile, +8 thrane goggles, +1 force, +1d4 slicing, +2d6 holy Per kama, I know a S&B fighter will do more base per hit, and definetly have better crit options but that extra 16+1+1d4+2d6 points of damage on the off hand at 10% faster speed all the time has got to add up way FAST and i would not be at all suprised if i was out damageing a S&B fighter, (maby I'll look up the dmage calc and run the numbers then edit them in here) and this guy was build with the aim of AC AC AC SAVES dps, sac a Few points of AC off the top end you might ocational get hit on eliet by harry on less then a 20 and you could add a bunch more dmaage.

***EDIT OMFG....

So i ran the number throught this damage calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/index.php
NOTE: this does NOT add the the 2 extra attacks ddo grants twf now so off hand was onyl getitng 3 attacks per set, I added 10% more swings for tempest so kwaiii's DPS should be higher thsi was don with average buffs verses what we fight 90% of the tiem at high levels namly raid bosses/mobs I weighted in towards the fighter in a lot of ways IE i gave them both GS weapons i assuemd the fighter had a khopesh and all spec feats I made both haflings since i was useing my guy and assumed the AC build S&B some how bought a 18 str still ie 16 starting after the -2 compared to my 8 starting, I gave the fighter a Bloodstone while omitting one for me since i dont use one normaly (dont have a spair for one thing), I'm useign dul Kamas...
The Fighter came out at about 105 DPS Kwaiii Came out at 138 DPS, I am not built for DPS, I'm a build for AC above all else, if a S&B fighter can not even come close to me, (and this was missing 2 of my off hand attacks), they can not come close to ANY twf robe AC/DPS build.

If you are going to talk about a min/max build witha ranger, do the same for a fighter. 34 STR and +4 to damage for Weapon specialization/greater. (+6 to damage every attack) The fighter will also be attacking at a BASE attack bonus of +37, which with my fighter I still miss on greater than a one in an Elite Shroud (depending on buffs and destruction, ETC.). So your ranger, attacking with a ~+32 is going to miss a whole lot more. And what about the fighters 30% attack speed boost nobody ever mentions. Best boost in the game EASILY. I am not saying S/B is better DPS, have not ran the numbers myself, just next time you run a comparision, do it fairly and compare both at min/max.

[Desteria]

If you are going to talk about a min/max build witha ranger, do the same for a fighter. 34 STR and +4 to damage for Weapon specialization/greater. (+6 to damage every attack) The fighter will also be attacking at a BASE attack bonus of +37, which with my fighter I still miss on greater than a one in an Elite Shroud (depending on buffs and destruction, ETC.). So your ranger, attacking with a ~+32 is going to miss a whole lot more. And what about the fighters 30% attack speed boost nobody ever mentions. Best boost in the game EASILY. I am not saying S/B is better DPS, have not ran the numbers myself, just next time you run a comparision, do it fairly and compare both at min/max.

Um i Compatred a Minmaxed AC S&B fighter Fighter maxed for damage (I stated i gave him the feats AND a bloodstone wich i did not give to the monk, I gave him 32 str insted of 34 str to say hes a hafling but that also ment i gave him +8 damage form hafling guile4) TO NOT maxed for damage monk/ranger AC build and the monk ranger decimated the S&B, So a more built for damage ranger 15/monk1 thats can still hit insainly high ac just not quite as insain as my guy would uterly decimate the DPS of any S&B while havign significant more AC then said S&B.

Thank-You have a nice day.

***Edit
For **** and giggles I stuck my human Str ranger in with her min2 Kopeshes (i disreguarded all acid damage because most key stuff has resist anyway), she came out at Almost Twice Kwaiii's DPS 260ish She is NOT minmaxed close but only started with a 16 str, though for TRUE max dps would be making her a hafling str ranger same 16 starting str and +8 guile damage mmmm mmm good.