Development FAILURE!

[Shattergod]

This Dev team has had some absolutely SPECTACULAR failures in its time. I mean they've made some truly boneheaded moves. Dwarves as the master race, leader granted raid loot, endless n/h/e grind, ghost touch items that have no business being ghost touch, the absolute lack of any real solo content to speak of.

Hand to hand martial arts specialists... who do more damage... with weapons.

The abortion we call crafting.

You know Kate Paiz is sitting in a room somewhere asking herself "Hmmm, how can we get them to grind some more?"

Either way, failure, after failure, after failure.... it's a wonder the game is still limping along.


But what is something YOU would consider the most audacious development failure... the thing any drooling refugee from a challenged community would be able to point out and say "Drrrrr!", but our Dev Team failed to get a grasp on.


For me, it's easily the real lack of Solo content. Sure we have "wilderness zones", but unless you invest a fortune in pots (that you'll never get back from the treasure in the chests) it's pretty much a nonstarter for many people. That being said the funnest time I've had on a quest in recent memory was in the giant quests in the threnal ruins... short, sweet, simple... and very soloable with a minimum of investment but fun returns.


But I'm still curious about what the masses think the Devs have been unbelievably... unwise... about...

[Torilin]

Does the entire necro count?

[Shattergod]

Does the entire necro count?

yes.

[Arkat]

Except for the Handwraps fiasco and the Abbot nonsense, I'm pretty satisfied with the game.

Nice job Devs!

[Angelus_dead]

But I'm still curious about what the masses think the Devs have been unbelievably... unwise... about...

Problem #1: No character respec. That is something that anyone who has worked on or even played an MMORPG before should have known. Game rules are hard, the developers are unlikely to get the rules perfect on their first try, so the rules will have to be changed. But rules cannot be changed if they would invalidate existing characters, unless those characters are permitted to adjust their build for the new rules.

By failing to do this, Turbine hobbled their ability to improve their game design.

Problem #1b: No item replacement. DDO lacks the ability for an existing magic item to change properties overnight if it turns out the original was imbalanced.

Problem #2: Inadequate customer-developer interaction. Many of DDO's problems would have been prevented or mitigated if they had properly harnessed the ability of customers to give early feedback and suggestions. For a simple example, there is still no good list of known bugs, which should be provided when someone goes to input a bug, so they can tell if it's already listed, or if they're the first player to report it. In addition, all evidence suggests that the beta-testing preview servers are poorly-managed one way or another.


Problem #3: Black Abbot. The true problem there is not the fact that they badly misjudged and screwed it up (which is excusable), but that they didn't care enough to fix it, or even try hard to fix it. A problem of that magnitude should have been a "drop everything else until it works" situation.


Problem #4: Nearsighted game design. Too many of the expansion missions added to DDO after release were wasted because they were developed as an isolated unit, and not by properly considering how they'd interact in the game as a whole. In particular, a quest interacts with the rest of the game world by the resources it provides that characters can bring to other missions (either XP or loot, or maybe also favor). A dungeon that's fun when you look at it individually may still fail to contribute to gameplay if all the appropriate-level characters are off doing profitable quests until they've advanced past the quest's level.

For a good example of that problem, look at the quests in the Necropolis. 5 at level 5-6, 5 at level 8-9, and 5 at level 11-12... all of them culminating their loot rewards with the Silver Flame Necklace, which every non-warforged should have. But to actually get that necklace, you only need find an opener and run the Cursed Crypt 3 times. All those other quests are actually not needed for the loot reward of that series. Other good examples are Enemy Within, Dead Shall Rise, Whisperdoom's Spawn, Dreams of Insanity... and I could go on and on.



Problem #5: Nonscaling raid quests. This is a special important case of nearsighted design. The timed raids in DDO were all designed for characters at or above the maximum experience level. But as the level cap went up after their release, those raids were left behind. Some aspects of the quest design (like the 3 day lockout timer, the large group size, and superior quality of certain named loot) are inherently aimed at capped characters. For example, the Chattering Ring from Warforged Titan is a valuable item for a level 16 high-AC character, but the monsters inhabiting that raid area aren't even speed-bumps for someone of that level. The disparity between the level of loot and the monsters guarding it damages gameplay.

Problem #6: Attendance-based Raid-loot System change. Modules 1-4 of DDO had a problem: the capstone raids of each module allowed 12 players to join the party, but only really 2-4 players had anything interesting to do during the raid, so there was a tendency to often play them with smaller groups. To change this, Module 5 retroactively changed those quests so that you could only get the full chance for loot if the party was packed to 12 characters.

The most obvious proof that this was a mistake is to look at the Reaver's Fate quest, which is essentially a 15-minute wait for 10 players to stand in the corner and chat, while 2 guys actually move the mission along.

[ArkoHighStar]

Have you tried perma death I hear its a whole new game

Oh Wait this isn't a goodbye thread, too bad

[sephiroth1084]

Does the entire necro count?

Seconded! (minus the Orchard itself)

[Drwaz99]

Problem #1: No character respec. That is something that anyone who has worked on or even played an MMORPG before should have known. Game rules are hard, the developers are unlikely to get the rules perfect on their first try, so the rules will have to be changed. But rules cannot be changed if they would invalidate existing characters, unless those characters are permitted to adjust their build for the new rules.

By failing to do this, Turbine hobbled their ability to improve their game design.

Problem #1b: No item replacement. DDO lacks the ability for an existing magic item to change properties overnight if it turns out the original was imbalanced.

Problem #2: Inadequate customer-developer interaction. Many of DDO's problems would have been prevented or mitigated if they had properly harnessed the ability of customers to give early feedback and suggestions. For a simple example, there is still no good list of known bugs, which should be provided when someone goes to input a bug, so they can tell if it's already listed, or if they're the first player to report it. In addition, all evidence suggests that the beta-testing preview servers are poorly-managed one way or another.


Problem #3: Black Abbot. The true problem there is not the fact that they badly misjudged and screwed it up (which is excusable), but that they didn't care enough to fix it, or even try hard to fix it. A problem of that magnitude should have been a "drop everything else until it works" situation.


Problem #4: Nearsighted game design. Too many of the expansion missions added to DDO after release were wasted because they were developed as an isolated unit, and not by properly considering how they'd interact in the game as a whole. In particular, a quest interacts with the rest of the game world by the resources it provides that characters can bring to other missions (either XP or loot, or maybe also favor). A dungeon that's fun when you look at it individually may still fail to contribute to gameplay if all the appropriate-level characters are off doing profitable quests until they've advanced past the quest's level.

For a good example of that problem, look at the quests in the Necropolis. 5 at level 5-6, 5 at level 8-9, and 5 at level 11-12... all of them culminating their loot rewards with the Silver Flame Necklace, which every non-warforged should have. But to actually get that necklace, you only need find an opener and run the Cursed Crypt 3 times. All those other quests are actually not needed for the loot reward of that series. Other good examples are Enemy Within, Dead Shall Rise, Whisperdoom's Spawn, Dreams of Insanity... and I could go on and on.



Problem #5: Nonscaling raid quests. This is a special important case of nearsighted design. The timed raids in DDO were all designed for characters at or above the maximum experience level. But as the level cap went up after their release, those raids were left behind. Some aspects of the quest design (like the 3 day lockout timer, the large group size, and superior quality of certain named loot) are inherently aimed at capped characters. For example, the Chattering Ring from Warforged Titan is a valuable item for a level 16 high-AC character, but the monsters inhabiting that raid area aren't even speed-bumps for someone of that level. The disparity between the level of loot and the monsters guarding it damages gameplay.

Problem #6: Attendance-based Raid-loot System change. Modules 1-4 of DDO had a problem: the capstone raids of each module allowed 12 players to join the party, but only really 2-4 players had anything interesting to do during the raid, so there was a tendency to often play them with smaller groups. To change this, Module 5 retroactively changed those quests so that you could only get the full chance for loot if the party was packed to 12 characters.

The most obvious proof that this was a mistake is to look at the Reaver's Fate quest, which is essentially a 15-minute wait for 10 players to stand in the corner and chat, while 2 guys actually move the mission along.

Well said, as those are the most important ones. The least important ones will be fixed in the next update. Just reading about the upcoming modules make me wonder why do I pay money for this. But I do and for now Turbine is lucky, but there will be a day, soon, if nothing changes, that I no longer will spend my money for a (imo) "lemon" of a game.

A second note, why is it all very good games end up getting trashed by the developers over the progression of the game, then eventually die. Are the developers getting bored? And Is that the case now?

[Ezzee]

I just want to say that the biggest failure for those entire game is the forums.

How else to ruin morale, destroy trustworthiness, and listen to people do nothing but ***** and moan about things that they don't understand other than on the forums. I think this game would be much better if we got rid of the forums cause then we would actually have people who enjoyed the game with little *****ing and moaning about things that really don't need to be here.

[Hafeal]

This game has flaws, no doubt and some have been mentioned in this thread.

But, I am unaware of ANY game without flaws or the capacity for improvement.

Thus, for those who do play DDO, you play because of how good it is right now and for the hope of how it will be. As for the latter, constructive criticism is what these forums are for ... but don't assume the devs must listen or that they aren't aware. Often they are ... check out ddocast Telero's posts or the other sources of info in the media.

As is often the case in our fast-food, instant gratification society, perhaps we need to slow down our expectations a tad. Content that takes months to create yet players finish within 2 hours is a dynamic that will lead to disappointment without understanding and context.

[Dirac]

AD has some nice suggestions, not all with which I agree. I have my own list, but I'll pass for now. Thinking about it, the OP's question can be divided into two different catagories.

1. What have been the biggest imporvements to the game ("mistakes" that have been fixed)?
2. What are the biggest needs to be improved now (current issues)?

This thread would have been much more fun to participate in, if the questions had been posed in that manner.

[Nevthial]

Problem #1: No character respec. That is something that anyone who has worked on or even played an MMORPG before should have known. Game rules are hard, the developers are unlikely to get the rules perfect on their first try, so the rules will have to be changed. But rules cannot be changed if they would invalidate existing characters, unless those characters are permitted to adjust their build for the new rules.

By failing to do this, Turbine hobbled their ability to improve their game design.

Problem #1b: No item replacement. DDO lacks the ability for an existing magic item to change properties overnight if it turns out the original was imbalanced.

Problem #2: Inadequate customer-developer interaction. Many of DDO's problems would have been prevented or mitigated if they had properly harnessed the ability of customers to give early feedback and suggestions. For a simple example, there is still no good list of known bugs, which should be provided when someone goes to input a bug, so they can tell if it's already listed, or if they're the first player to report it. In addition, all evidence suggests that the beta-testing preview servers are poorly-managed one way or another.


Problem #3: Black Abbot. The true problem there is not the fact that they badly misjudged and screwed it up (which is excusable), but that they didn't care enough to fix it, or even try hard to fix it. A problem of that magnitude should have been a "drop everything else until it works" situation.


Problem #4: Nearsighted game design. Too many of the expansion missions added to DDO after release were wasted because they were developed as an isolated unit, and not by properly considering how they'd interact in the game as a whole. In particular, a quest interacts with the rest of the game world by the resources it provides that characters can bring to other missions (either XP or loot, or maybe also favor). A dungeon that's fun when you look at it individually may still fail to contribute to gameplay if all the appropriate-level characters are off doing profitable quests until they've advanced past the quest's level.

For a good example of that problem, look at the quests in the Necropolis. 5 at level 5-6, 5 at level 8-9, and 5 at level 11-12... all of them culminating their loot rewards with the Silver Flame Necklace, which every non-warforged should have. But to actually get that necklace, you only need find an opener and run the Cursed Crypt 3 times. All those other quests are actually not needed for the loot reward of that series. Other good examples are Enemy Within, Dead Shall Rise, Whisperdoom's Spawn, Dreams of Insanity... and I could go on and on.



Problem #5: Nonscaling raid quests. This is a special important case of nearsighted design. The timed raids in DDO were all designed for characters at or above the maximum experience level. But as the level cap went up after their release, those raids were left behind. Some aspects of the quest design (like the 3 day lockout timer, the large group size, and superior quality of certain named loot) are inherently aimed at capped characters. For example, the Chattering Ring from Warforged Titan is a valuable item for a level 16 high-AC character, but the monsters inhabiting that raid area aren't even speed-bumps for someone of that level. The disparity between the level of loot and the monsters guarding it damages gameplay.

Problem #6: Attendance-based Raid-loot System change. Modules 1-4 of DDO had a problem: the capstone raids of each module allowed 12 players to join the party, but only really 2-4 players had anything interesting to do during the raid, so there was a tendency to often play them with smaller groups. To change this, Module 5 retroactively changed those quests so that you could only get the full chance for loot if the party was packed to 12 characters.

The most obvious proof that this was a mistake is to look at the Reaver's Fate quest, which is essentially a 15-minute wait for 10 players to stand in the corner and chat, while 2 guys actually move the mission along.

I get upset at imperfections, but I'm still mostly happy with the game. I agree with ya AD on these points. I think the Abbot should have been held back and used as it was when it first came out ( Hardness wise) as a level 20 raid. The minor glitches are annoying, but I usually roleplay them away as random factors in the story..

[Angelus_dead]

I get upset at imperfections, but I'm still mostly happy with the game. I agree with ya AD on these points. I think the Abbot should have been held back and used as it was when it first came out ( Hardness wise) as a level 20 raid.

The original form of the Abbot raid was manageably beatable (and without cheating) by level 14 characters. The only tricky part was that you needed 2-3 clerics with a specific feat (and preferably with some specific loot), but aside from that recruitment obstacle there was no problem beating it. Level 20 characters would have found it far too easy. (And not only because Mordenkainen's Disjunction "ruins the Abbot's day")

The trouble started when after 1-2 weeks, the devs noticed that portions of the raid that were meant to allow you to gain tools to help fight the Abbot were being completely ignored, because acquiring those items was actually incomprably more difficult than winning without them. Thus they pushed a button making the boss unkillable until the three side challenges were finished, giving us the broken Abbot raid that has persisted (with just a few small alterations) to this day.

[Torilin]

I just want to say that the biggest failure for those entire game is the forums.

How else to ruin morale, destroy trustworthiness, and listen to people do nothing but ***** and moan about things that they don't understand other than on the forums. I think this game would be much better if we got rid of the forums cause then we would actually have people who enjoyed the game with little *****ing and moaning about things that really don't need to be here.

Actually I see the forums as a way to vent, without forums i may have quit long before this.

[jmelanie7]

Actually I see the forums as a way to vent, without forums i may have quit long before this.

You need to vent? there is other ways tho

[Gunga]

This Dev team has had some absolutely SPECTACULAR failures in its time. I mean they've made some truly boneheaded moves. Dwarves as the master race, leader granted raid loot, endless n/h/e grind, ghost touch items that have no business being ghost touch, the absolute lack of any real solo content to speak of.

Waaa.

Hand to hand martial arts specialists... who do more damage... with weapons.

Waaa.

The abortion we call crafting.

Waaa.

You know Kate Paiz is sitting in a room somewhere asking herself "Hmmm, how can we get them to grind some more?"

Waaa.

But I'm still curious about what the masses think the Devs have been unbelievably... unwise... about...

I think they've done an incredible job keeping the game up and going. I can't wait for the next couple of Mods and I've got my first Half Orc build ready to go.

Have a tissue.

[Alavatar]

Wow...

Two people added to ignore list in less then a week.

[Sharzade]

I've been playing since beta, and my Thelanis buddies and I are still enjoying DDO very much. The news that has been released since GenCon about future Mods looks yummy. It looks to me like the game is moving in a positive direction. Frankly, until the new content comes out, I've still got tons of work to do on my current characters. I Luv the crafting!

Players who do not think DDO is their cup of tea, aren't being held down and forced to stay. Would they be less upset and happier playing other games?

Cheers,

Sharzade

[Zenthalas]

If you don't like the game or are unhappy with it, go play WOW or LOTR, or better yet stop gaming. Guess what when you have over 400 terabytes of info to program some stuff will get messed up, when a majority of people are incapable of finishing a raid it gets changed. Stop whining stop venting and go do something else.

[Shattergod]

If you don't like the game or are unhappy with it, go play WOW or LOTR, or better yet stop gaming. Guess what when you have over 400 terabytes of info to program some stuff will get messed up, when a majority of people are incapable of finishing a raid it gets changed. Stop whining stop venting and go do something else.

I'm much more concerned with the design flaws than the bugs.


When they tell us it's not a bug... it's a feature.