Intimidating Turtling Machine

[Jay203]

While dishing 0 damage and taking full damage from spells...

c'mon borror0, stop being a downer =P
look on the bright side, we're not forcing you to make one and play it
besides, spell damage usually hit for full on an intimitank anyway
(except for those overused pally ones >_>)

[Borror0]

c'mon borror0, stop being a downer =P

I'm just making it clear that an intimispongespolosion like you will be taking more damage than an intimitank and deal less damage too.

Unless you're in fully DPS mode (ThF), but then you'll be taking more damage and not tanking (or at least sponging).

besides, spell damage usually hit for full on an intimitank anyway

That's false. A lot of intimitanks have Evasion. Also, most intimitanks have better reflex save than you.

[Jay203]

I'm just making it clear that an intimispongespolosion like you will be taking more damage than an intimitank and deal less damage too.

Unless you're in fully DPS mode (ThF), but then you'll be taking more damage and not tanking (or at least sponging).



That's false. A lot of intimitanks have Evasion. Also, most intimitanks have better reflex save than you.

so you're saying there are a lot of non-pally intimitanks out there that don't take full damge from spells huh
not to mention when you say spells, it includes all the spells, not just the ones with reflex saves


and as for not doing damage while blocking, what? you seriously expect people to be dishing out high DPS while turtling?!
sorry to say but you sound really biased in favor of the "typical" builds, you have already viewed those as the defaults and refuse to see things any other way. i can safely say you're not gonna like ANY of my builds =)

[ShadowFox1978]

so you're saying there are a lot of non-pally intimitanks out there that don't take full damge from spells huh
not to mention when you say spells, it includes all the spells, not just the ones with reflex saves


and as for not doing damage while blocking, what? you seriously expect people to be dishing out high DPS while turtling?!
sorry to say but you sound really biased in favor of the "typical" builds, you have already viewed those as the defaults and refuse to see things any other way. i can safely say you're not gonna like ANY of my builds =)

There are builds that out do you in every catagory, without turtling and can out dps you.(Not when you are in DPS mode, but anytime you are trying to tank.)

[Borror0]

not to mention when you say spells, it includes all the spells, not just the ones with reflex saves

Errr... so?

and as for not doing damage while blocking, what? you seriously expect people to be dishing out high DPS while turtling?!

Sort of. My intimitank can take less damage than you and still swing a Vorpal/DPS while at it.

sorry to say but you sound really biased in favor of the "typical" builds, you have already viewed those as the defaults and refuse to see things any other way.

I'm not against trying soemthing different, but you're going to roll something horribly weaker than most players would welcome in their party.

While turling up, you gain 41 DR. That means that each swing will hit less. However, while you do you can't do anything. Can't swing, can't dodge, can't drink a potion. Nada! Fact is, unless mobs do less than 43 damage per swing, an high AC will out-perform you only on defensive capacities. He will also out-perform you on offensive capacities, because he can swing a weapon while at it.

Then, in the AC build gets overwhelmed, he can build with 31 DR. You can't. You're already there.

Fact is, a S&B AC build will avoid less damage than you and deal more than you. And that is a huge problem. I don't know how much you read the forums, but if you do, you'll notice the incredible number of poasts from S&B characters complaining about how weaker they are. They deal less damage, have less AC. Right now, if we'd make a list of the fighting style by strength it'sd look like this:

1. TwF
2. ThF
3. S&B

You? You're weaker than a good S&B AC build... don't you see a problem there? I do.

Sorry, but there will be many builds that will do better than you on all levels.

[Hadrian]

While dishing 0 damage and taking full damage from spells...

Well, I believe the build is intended to "turtle," which means shield block to me, so yes. Dealing no damage by design, but with the ability to take some serious melee hits.

He won't necessarily take full damage from spells because he's shield blocking with a docent and a tower shield. That doesn't exclude any of the options to increase your reflex save, take evasion or use uncanny dodge.

I have a barbarian that I play regularly who breaks out the tower shield when the situation calls for it. When a VoD pug turned into a mess, I found myself tanking the second wave of orthons, Sully and some bearded devils that way. 41 DR meant they were hardly scratching me. It works quite well.

[Borror0]

Well, I believe the build is intended to "turtle," which means shield block to me, so yes. Dealing no damage by design, but with the ability to take some serious melee hits.

First, if your build's goal is to tutrle 90% of the time, reroll. Secondly, an AC build would perform better at "turteling".

He won't necessarily take full damage from spells because he's shield blocking with a docent and a tower shield.

Looking at the current build, he will.

When a VoD pug turned into a mess, I found myself tanking the second wave of orthons. [...] It works quite well.

Yes, but he's using this as a driving goal.

[Jay203]

ok, borror0, i play different styles depending on what the situation calls for, granted i'm usually forced to get out of my defensive mode and go on offensive with my 2h weapons since appearently i can't find a group with decent DPS output that relies on not having aggro
but heck, we'll see how it turns out eventually

still trying to decide if i want to continue with improve crit piercing for stats damage with rapier or just go with blunt/slash for a bit higher raw damage count =\

[Borror0]

still trying to decide if i want to continue with improve crit piercing for stats damage with rapier or just go with blunt/slash for a bit higher raw damage count =\

Slash is wiser, you'll get better damage when you take the two-hander out.

[Jay203]

Slash is wiser, you'll get better damage when you take the two-hander out.

altho i do wish they'd put in the Spear in game already, then i don't have to decide >_>
grrrrrr

[Hadrian]

First, if your build's goal is to tutrle 90% of the time, reroll. Secondly, an AC build would perform better at "turteling".

I didn't say I wanted to turtle 90% of the time. I haven't sacrificed anything for defense on my barbarian. I simply wear the docent and equip the shield when I want to tank. It works extremely well for me.

He's going to have maxed out strength. There is no reason why he can't put the shield down and do some damage. He doesn't need to be so extreme with his build, but he will be able to turtle very well when he wants to.

Loknig at the currnet build, he will.

He understands it might not work as is, and so asks for suggestions. There is really no point in repeating that it won't work as is.

Yes, as his build stands he has no dex, but he did ask for feedback to improve his build. It's no trouble at all to say that you can drop CE and lower your int/cha a little to boost dexterity up.

[Samadhi]

Hmm... I'm surprised about the amount of negativity this build is getting. I have had something similar capped for a while and it works AMAZINGLY well. Why? Versatility. You have to sacrifice nothing beyond a skill point, and item slot, and maybe a couple AP to be able to intimidate like a madman. You can gear almost everything you have towards offense, but have the dual purpose of being able to turtle and soak damage incredibly well. From experience, this type of build is freaking awesome. It doesn't rely on nearly the amount of gear or feat dedication that an AC tank does, can still intimitank like a champion when the situation calls for it, and can do plenty of DPS when it doesn't. Honestly, I have an AC/Evasion intimitank also - but for a lot of situations my barbarian can soak damage better.

Now, specific problems with this exact build. HP are abysmal. Fix this ASAP. I also agree with the poster that said, considering your AC, why bother with CE - but I could see both sides of that discussion.

[Borror0]

I didn't say I wanted to turtle 90% of the time.

When you call your build 'Intimidating Turtling Machine' and take Imp Crit: Piercing most likely you're going to turtle most of the time.

You have to sacrifice nothing beyond a skill point, and item slot, and maybe a couple AP to be able to intimidate like a madman.

And two feats...

Honestly, I have an AC/Evasion intimitank also - but for a lot of situations my barbarian can soak damage better.

Let me doubt that seriously.

Considering your AC, why bother with CE - but I could see both sides of that discussion.

Actually, why bother at all with CE on a barb. You can't use CE while raged. If you want a flexitank, a barbarian is not the way to go.

[Samadhi]

When you call your build 'Intimidating Turtling Machine' and take Imp Crit: Piercing most likely you're going to turtle most of the time.



And two feats...



Let me doubt that seriously.


Actually, why bother at all with CE on a barb. You can't use CE while raged. If you want a flexitank, a barbarian is not the way to go.

I was not advocating the two feats used necessarily (I didn't use any defensive feats on my version although I'm considering checking out the one that boosts blocking DR) - but neither do I think it's overly gamebreaking for him to use them.

The main crux of your argument seems to be that he is sacrificing piles of DPS - and this is what I just don't see. He's sacrificing minimal DPS for a wide range of versatility.

And you can doubt that my barbarian can turtle better than my evasion/AC/fighter all day long - but it's true. Maybe the AC I'm missing from not having gotten a chattering ring yet is all the difference in the world, but beyond that she has everything there is to get. The simple fact is, she still gets hit enough against, for example, elite orthons - that relying on AC alone isn't enough. Is it situational? Of course, the evasion/AC fighter can tank Suulo almost unharmed while the turtle can't do anything there. Against swarms of mobs, however, with increasing chances of rolling 20's compounded per mob but less damage per hit - the DR tank is the way to go - and the versatility is ridiculous.

[Borror0]

The main crux of your argument seems to be that he is sacrificing piles of DPS - and this is what I just don't see. He's sacrificing minimal DPS for a wide range of versatility.

He is not wanting to be versatile, he wants to 'tank'!! That's what you fail to get.

And you can doubt that my barbarian can turtle better than my evasion/AC/fighter all day long - but it's true.

How?! I can't see it!

Barbarian:
7 DR/-
8 BAB
2 Base
15 Levik's
33

Evasion Intimitank:
6 Shield Masteries
7 BAB
2 Base
15 Levik's
30

A non-evasion intimitank has 1 more DR. Also, the intimitank gains an extra 5 DR from Ironskin Chant (or 10 from Stoneskin whereas the barbarian would get only 3). The intimitank also has a potential of 3 higher if he's a dwarf. And, like this wasn't enough, he got Evasion and AC to dodge damage. I fail to see how the barbarian is any superior to your tank.

The simple fact is, she still gets hit enough against, for example, elite orthons - that relying on AC alone isn't enough.

What? you actually get hit by Elite Orthons?! I think that is where the problem is...

I never turtle during the first wave of Orthon and I never loose my temporary HP until Sally comes down.

[Samadhi]

He is not wanting to be versatile, he wants to 'tank'!! That's what you fail to get.



How?! I can't see it!

Barbarian:
7 DR/-
8 BAB
2 Base
15 Levik's
33

Evasion Intimitank:
6 Shield Masteries
7 BAB
2 Base
15 Levik's
30

A non-evasion intimitank has 1 more DR. Also, the intimitank gains an extra 5 DR from Ironskin Chant (or 10 from Stoneskin whereas the barbarian would get only 3). The intimitank also has a potential of 3 higher if he's a dwarf. And, like this wasn't enough, he got Evasion and AC to dodge damage. I fail to see how the barbarian is any superior to your tank.



What? you actually get hit by Elite Orthons?! I think that is where the problem is...

I never turtle during the first wave of Orthon and I never loose my temporary HP until Sally comes down.

Cool, now this might be useful for me, I've never seen anyone calculate DR before. I'm always down for some edumacation.

Question: Why did you give shield masteries to the fighter and not the barbarian? Does it not stack with the barbarian DR? (As stated, I do not currently have anything like that on my barbarian).

Comment1: Neither of my tanks has pulled a Levik's yet and, in about 80-100 runs now amongst all my characters, I think I've only seen it fall once. Might just be bad luck - but yes this will do a lot to equalize the DR of the fighter whenever I finally pull it.

Comment2: Neither of my intimitanks are dwarves for the AP there. Yes, I am well aware every class in the game is better when it is dwarf except, maybe, for a sorc. That's exactly why I avoid them except for builds that really need the extra padding.

[Borror0]

Cool, now this might be useful for me, I've never seen anyone calculate DR before. I'm always down for some edumacation.

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DR

Question: Why did you give shield masteries to the fighter and not the barbarian? [...] (As stated, I do not currently have anything like that on my barbarian).

I didn't give it to the barb because your barb doesn't have it.

Comment1: Neither of my tanks has pulled a Levik's yet and, in about 80-100 runs now amongst all my characters, I think I've only seen it fall once. Might just be bad luck - but yes this will do a lot to equalize the DR of the fighter whenever I finally pull it.

I have seen it drop quite often, seems poor luck from you. Took me 8 runs on Borr and I see that as bad lucky. (Also took me 10 runs to get my FP.)

Comment2: Neither of my intimitanks are dwarves for the AP there. Yes, I am well aware every class in the game is better when it is dwarf except, maybe, for a sorc. That's exactly why I avoid them except for builds that really need the extra padding.

That was just pointing out the potential, didn't assume it for your character.

[Thrudh]

Actually, why bother at all with CE on a barb. You can't use CE while raged. If you want a flexitank, a barbarian is not the way to go.

Not saying this guy's build is the right way to go... but you CAN make a barbarian into a flexitank....

Most of the time, you're raging with Power Attack.... but you CAN dismiss rage, pull out a tower shield, and turtle up with an insight weapon and Combat Expertise...

I do it right now (although my guy is not a pure barbarian... he's 10/4/2 Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger) and it works very well... This guy can achieve 56 AC unbuffed (mid to high 60s in a raid group with buffs) OR go fully DPS with PA, Mineral II greataxe, and a bloodstone...

I'm very much looking forward to the barbarian intimidate (all foes shaken)... I think that will be awesome... and something a fighter can't do...

[Angelus_dead]

Question: Why did you give shield masteries to the fighter and not the barbarian? Does it not stack with the barbarian DR? (As stated, I do not currently have anything like that on my barbarian).

Fighters have 8 extra combat feats, allowing them to actually take those things without losing other crucial abilities.

Comment1: Neither of my tanks has pulled a Levik's yet and, in about 80-100 runs now amongst all my characters, I think I've only seen it fall once. Might just be bad luck - but yes this will do a lot to equalize the DR of the fighter whenever I finally pull it.

Equalize? Both classes can use it equivalently. In fact, the Hound of Xoriat loot is biased against heavy-armor tanks, because it provides a non-tower shield with 15 blocking DR.

[Jay203]

Fighters have 8 extra combat feats, allowing them to actually take those things without losing other crucial abilities.


Equalize? Both classes can use it equivalently. In fact, the Hound of Xoriat loot is biased against heavy-armor tanks, because it provides a non-tower shield with 15 blocking DR.

and now you know what i had to sacrifice to get those 2 measely feats for blocking :P
and i love that shield in hounds! that means i won't have to sacrifice attack and skill penalty for using tower shield =D

but yah, it's gonna be challenging to play, but i'll live =P