helpful advice requested. Know it alls and haters, need not apply

[JayDubya]

The idea of building a high-AC evasion intimitank with a high Dex finesse build is ingenious, in theory. It makes sense to combine the need for high AC with the benefit of Weapon Finesse - killing two birds with one stone, as it were. Other people have said that a +27 to hit is too low... but really it's a +32/+37/+42 (w/ +5 weapon) with the possibility of going higher with other buffs, and that should be sufficient for normal/hard on high level content.

However, you can't evade when you're overburdened, and you will be if you're wearing all that armor and carrying around a reasonable amount of gear. You can't stat-damage undead, constructs or Boss monsters. You can't break through the DR/ of many monsters at the high levels. Many high level monsters throw heal spells on themselves, making stat damage irrelevant.

You keep insisting that you don't need your dex to be higher than 24, since your armor won't let it work anyways. This may be true, but, on the other hand, you're never going to have a great to-hit.

You may have built this build on the assumption that you can spam Intimidate. What happens if the devs change the cooldown/range/effectiveness? Suddenly, you're expected to keep aggro by attacking, and you're not hitting hard enough to do it. Are you prepared to walk away from the build?

some of the other points are also valid - you probably have too many hitpoints for someone who is supposed to not get hit. You probably have no need for mobility, since you lose your DR/ in the process. If you were to drop your CON by 2, you'd have points to put into STR that would get you to 20, which, when combined with a +5 weapon, should help get you past the DR of most monsters.

Some questions:
1) Are you comfortable with the possibiilty that you won't be able to run high level quests on Elite?
2) Are you comfortable with the possibility that Intimidate changes, and makes that strategy less useful?
3) Are you comfortable with all the grinding you'll need to do to pick up finessable stat damagers and Power 5s ( unless you already have them)
4) Are you comfortable with the possibility that you won't be able to damage some mobs effectively, and will have to rely on the rest of the party to do the killing (not so much an issue in raids, but can be an issue in regular quests)
5) Are you comfortable with the idea that your whole purpose in life is to hold down the shift key and hit the intimidate skill?
6) Are you comfortable with the possibility that a ray of enfeeblement (no save) could render you helpless 33% of the time [ I think that's right] ?


Good luck!

[Aranticus]

Wow, I must pinch myself. Someone who can actually say, think about this when making the toon instead of you suck and are worthless. I was just in the middle of writing a response to the know it all azzez A.D. and Ant, but now I will take the high road. Their comments were EXACTLY what I put in the 1st paragraph that I didn't want. Just politely move on....but knooooow, their arrogance can't be held. It is just too much to ask to be helpful with all of their self proclaimed knowledge. So I will file their advice, some correct -some incorrect, in the same place with all the other trash. Thank you for the helpful comments, Samadhi. I will try to adjust str somewhat by lowering cha and con. If I lower Cha too much, I might as well take all ftr after 2 rog. but then I lose the saves for wil and evasion. Oh well, I will work on it some.

i can be nice and chummy but i usually toss this away when people start acting up. go take a look at most of the build requests. they ones that get diplomatic and helpful are the ones that are both polite and humble. dun expect others to behave that way to you whan you are not

ps: by calling people names doesnt prove you anything cept that others will know who really is the names for

[Aranticus]

Other people have said that a +27 to hit is too low... but really it's a +32/+37/+42 (w/ +5 weapon)

if he took the rogue levels, at L16 his bab is not 16 which means he does not have the full range of attacks. increments start from the 3rd swing onwards so the ie +32/+32/+37. lets see what other buffs can he get or use. recitation, bard song, both of which will add +6 more to the attack bonus for a total of +38. sure he can hit end bosses easily but what about the armored stuff like orthons? and plus like what samadhi said, cant hit, cant damage, what does this toon really do?

Are you comfortable with the possibility that a ray of enfeeblement (no save) could render you helpless 33% of the time [ I think that's right] ?

A coruscating ray springs towards the target, inflicting a 1d6, +1 per 2 caster levels (max 1d6+5), penalty to strength.

assuming L10 caster, str loss is 6-11 = average 8.5 str loss. if he does not have a +6 str item, its "i'm helpless", "restore pls", "need heal"

PS: i've not subtracted -5 from combat expertise (without which he does not have the ac to intimidate), -1 from having 8 str (assuming no str item used) so in reality its +32 for 1st swing (arraetrikos has an ac of 39, elite orthons are in the 50s i think)

[JayDubya]

Good point, Aranticus. I forgot about CE.

Now, in theory, he can turn off CE when he needs to hit Orthons. Not that it will help much.

Oh - and I knew how Ray of Enfeeblement worked, I was skipping ahead to estimate the likelihood of 0 str, and whether it would nuke him. It certainly is likely to nuke him for the first 8 levels or so, until he can get at least a +4 str item.

Then again, I haven't studied strength damage on PCs extensively - are you rendered helpless at a higher str than 0?

[Aranticus]

Good point, Aranticus. I forgot about CE.

Now, in theory, he can turn off CE when he needs to hit Orthons. Not that it will help much.

Oh - and I knew how Ray of Enfeeblement worked, I was skipping ahead to estimate the likelihood of 0 str, and whether it would nuke him. It certainly is likely to nuke him for the first 8 levels or so, until he can get at least a +4 str item.

Then again, I haven't studied strength damage on PCs extensively - are you rendered helpless at a higher str than 0?

no. the key is not with mobs that do the ray damage. its with those that weaken you. assuming he has high saves, he'll be automatically weakened and the symbol spell do alot more str damage. helpless = no tanking

as for the orthons, -5 CE = getting hit alot and with intimidate on timer = mana sponge. my fighter can kill the orthons before they do sufficient damage even with CE up. (i'm referring to red named orthons in vod, in that quest i'm running with 60+ ac with CE up while maintaining a decent damage output with 34 str, 36 with madstone rage)

[negative]

The idea of building a high-AC evasion intimitank with a high Dex finesse build is ingenious, in theory. It makes sense to combine the need for high AC with the benefit of Weapon Finesse - killing two birds with one stone, as it were.

I agree with this. At first, it does seem like a genius idea. But the 8 starting Str is just too low as you've said. Most, it not all viable, weapon finesse characters are starting with at least 12 str if not more for all the reasons talked about. And even then, it doesn't always overcome problems such overcoming DR to do stat damage. Personally, at first glance, maybe if you reworked the stats enough a weapon finesse intimitank could be viable, but it would take a lot of build planning.

[krud]

I agree with this. At first, it does seem like a genius idea. But the 8 starting Str is just too low as you've said. Most, it not all viable, weapon finesse characters are starting with at least 12 str if not more for all the reasons talked about. And even then, it doesn't always overcome problems such overcoming DR to do stat damage. Personally, at first glance, maybe if you reworked the stats enough a weapon finesse intimitank could be viable, but it would take a lot of build planning.

for stat damage you could at least use puncturing or enfeebling. no need to bypass dr for those to work. That still leaves enough mobs where some kind of strength will be needed. I agree, no strength, even on a weapon finesse build, is not a very good idea.

[Hadrian]

for stat damage you could at least use puncturing or enfeebling. no need to bypass dr for those to work. That still leaves enough mobs where some kind of strength will be needed. I agree, no strength, even on a weapon finesse build, is not a very good idea.

The problem is that he will still need to confirm the criticals, and with that to-hit, it won't happen often. He'll need to find +4/5 power 5 weapons just to reach the edge of having a too-low to hit with CE on. That means a bloodstone is going to be a must if this build wants to be offensive other than just on the forums.

[Lonewolfe]

I looked at it all again and tweaked some. I reduced con a bit and used the pts for str, plus I was able to round off and use the stat enh's that humans get to replace tomes. Very cheap build to make now. I still have a low str, but I can wear a str item or use bull's wands to get up to 16-20. The ray of enfeeblement means less to me, because that is a spell that is mostly used by goblinoid clerics. At that lvl, they won't take me to zero, but if they do, then the cleric will have to give me a lesser, which casters beg for all the time. Is it ideal, no. Is it doable, sure. If this build doesn't work on high lvl elite (which I'm not convinced), I can scrap it w/no losses. I have 14 capped toons and have been bored. That is why the new build & style. Not saying this build has no weakness, or is a god among men...but I think I can find a niche. Especially when many people want to bang on their chests about kill counts (which I could care less about).

I must say, I don't understand all the complaints that I won't be independent of cleric heals or help from the party. I never said this was a solo toon. Why is it wrong to expect the party to help me? True, there are situations where I can't intimidate, so I would need to put into offensive mode (which isn't big as most ftr's spec'd for dmg), but there are alot of quests that I can do better than them on. I can absorb a ton of dmg, that is...when they get thru my AC and my large DR. All the time, the casters and kill count peeps can have at it with no agro. As far as being a sponge????? Is it easier to heal one high ac/dr tank or the entire group with less ac/dr? I know my cleric gets tired of when the caster hits some aoe spell and runs for the next 5 mins trying to survive the ones he didn't one shot. or the rogue that thinks he is a tank. or just when many have agro and I'm trying to heal 2+ teammates that are in trouble. This will greatly reduce that. So, I'm not buying th sponge arguement yet. Again, not saying it's an uber/end all build. Just saying that it has more room in a party than lots of the crazy builds I've seen out there. Everyone is trying different stuff now.

There have been several helpful comments and I appreciate them. I took some of the advice and rolled him this weekend. He is lvl 3 and has done very well. Granted, I'm not breaking out the wine yet. Scorching ray is a pain since my saves don't help it, but that is the same for anyone facing kobolds on elite.

[Hadrian]

Is it easier to heal one high ac/dr tank or the entire group with less ac/dr? I know my cleric gets tired of when the caster hits some aoe spell and runs for the next 5 mins trying to survive the ones he didn't one shot. or the rogue that thinks he is a tank. or just when many have agro and I'm trying to heal 2+ teammates that are in trouble.

I think people may be looking at it from the opposite point of view that you are. Yes, your damage mitigation is superior to the typical DPS build, but if you can't put your target down, you will eventually take as much damage as they would from that same creature.

There is something to be said for being able to take a hit, but it's also important to eliminate threats, not just contain them. Where you become a burden is when something that is a major threat needs to die quickly. You could very well not be able to kill something that has minor self healing, ever, while an offensive build would finish it off in a few seconds and move on.

Everyone has their own place in a team, but that doesn't mean that in practical game play you won't be sometimes called on to do something other than press the intimidate button. Many builds out there exist that can accomplish more than just that, and give up nothing in terms of defense compared to your build idea.

If you're going fully defensive intimitank, you don't need to finish with more than 350 hit points. It will be so hard to damage you, that 350 HPs will be as survivable as a barbarian with 1,500 hps

[Seacog]

I am not going to attack your build. I am not going to give you suggestions how to better it. There are plenty of other people that have and are most likely, better then I. Some of touched on the subject of what i shall say, but not in detail.

The strength is a big issue, but if you want those stats rock on! just do not make it a halfling then, with your 3/4 carrying capacity, 150 pounds would make you medium encumbered, 300 would make you encumbered, which pretty much means as a turtle, with a shield and plate if you loot a speck of dust, you can't move.

I love warforgeds myself, being one, however , if ac is your goal, not the best choice of race.

Humans... eh.. not a big fan of humans, but a decent race for this build if you insist on making it this way.

Dwarf - this is the one i would suggest, can get decent hp, and slightly more ac with armor mastery, also add a tad to your to hit bonus by using axes and taking that line of enhancements. They have some nice racial bonuses incase you dont have the best of gear > high fort with higher poison saves, +# vs enemy spells/enhancements, i don't see the 2 point cha hit really making too much diff, thats only 1 intim point, and that ain't gonna sink yer ship.

Theres your answer and my reasons why. To others that posted here, the majority of you, he asked a simple question, what race to choose, if he wants to build this character let him, give him your best suggestion for race like he asked and let him try it, though i do believe by level 9 he will be rerolling it, it is still a decent learning point, and a different way to see the game. Rock on bro, and GL.

[Lonewolfe]

I think people may be looking at it from the opposite point of view that you are. Yes, your damage mitigation is superior to the typical DPS build, but if you can't put your target down, you will eventually take as much damage as they would from that same creature.

There is something to be said for being able to take a hit, but it's also important to eliminate threats, not just contain them. Where you become a burden is when something that is a major threat needs to die quickly. You could very well not be able to kill something that has minor self healing, ever, while an offensive build would finish it off in a few seconds and move on.

Everyone has their own place in a team, but that doesn't mean that in practical game play you won't be sometimes called on to do something other than press the intimidate button. Many builds out there exist that can accomplish more than just that, and give up nothing in terms of defense compared to your build idea.

If you're going fully defensive intimitank, you don't need to finish with more than 350 hit points. It will be so hard to damage you, that 350 HPs will be as survivable as a barbarian with 1,500 hps

Forgive me if I am just dense, but it seems everyone expects/demands that I kill everything. With the ability to make a nice little "sitting ducks" out of the bad guys, the casters can aoe to their hearts content. And, all of new hoards of tempest rangers can just sit there and pick them off while they pile up to get to me. Why is it that I, the tank, will be called upon to kill everything fast. Even with red named, I can hold agro (one guy to heal) while the rest unload on him. I don't need to kill if I can make it a cake walk for everyone else to do so. And how about the rog's out there that will be filling their screen with red #'s? I admitted that there will be exceptions to this scenario. But there will be much more where I can work w/in my build than times I can't.

[Lonewolfe]

Also, even with my 1st #'s, I wouldn't have to be at end game with 8 str. I could easily get to 14-16. That isn't great, but it's as much as many of the dex builds (rangers/rog's) before DDO perverted the system and made dwarf str rangers gods.

[Seacog]

Also, even with my 1st #'s, I wouldn't have to be at end game with 8 str. I could easily get to 14-16. That isn't great, but it's as much as many of the dex builds (rangers/rog's) before DDO perverted the system and made dwarf str rangers gods.

Yes but even at level 1 or 2 your shield and armor are gonna have you constantly in a state of medium encumbrance > had a rogue i built with 8 strength and he had issues with mith chain and shield... the +1 you get at 1+2 isn't gonna help you much you will be encumbered, IF you can get a level 3 rr +2 str item, you might finally be okay to carry your gear and some basic trash loot, gems and scrolls, it won't be til level 5, with the possible +3 strength item from TR that you will finally be able to pick up one or more things extra <i.e. weapons/armors> I have a full level 16 wizard that has trouble with his 14 str just carrying several diff robes and his equipped gear + components/wands/scrolls. Frankly, i don't care that he is medium encumbered pretty much 24/7 he gets hit, he's dead anyway, but as a tank? you cant afford it, even at level 1 imho. Again, its your build, do it your way, thats just my two coppers worth

[rpasell]

2) Are you comfortable with the possibility that Intimidate changes, and makes that strategy less useful?

I'm not big on the build critiquing either: it is an interesting concept. I would agree the STR is too low, but play it and see how it works out.

Regarding the quoted: They haven't given any indication this will change or that it's overpowered that I'm aware of. It seems silly to not build something because the Devs might change it. They might change Tempest too, but I don't see that changing the number of Ranger6/ClassX builds out there.

[Lonewolfe]

Yes but even at level 1 or 2 your shield and armor are gonna have you constantly in a state of medium encumbrance > had a rogue i built with 8 strength and he had issues with mith chain and shield... the +1 you get at 1+2 isn't gonna help you much you will be encumbered, IF you can get a level 3 rr +2 str item, you might finally be okay to carry your gear and some basic trash loot, gems and scrolls, it won't be til level 5, with the possible +3 strength item from TR that you will finally be able to pick up one or more things extra <i.e. weapons/armors> I have a full level 16 wizard that has trouble with his 14 str just carrying several diff robes and his equipped gear + components/wands/scrolls. Frankly, i don't care that he is medium encumbered pretty much 24/7 he gets hit, he's dead anyway, but as a tank? you cant afford it, even at level 1 imho. Again, its your build, do it your way, thats just my two coppers worth

fair enough, but I already have him to lvl 3.5 and have had no problems. At the end of ww's I was full of junk and hit medium, but I didn't have any trouble. As I stated before, I changed the original build and now have 12 str. I shouldn't have a ton of weapons, armor or other heavy equip to change out. Some, but only a fraction of the normal melee toon. Oh well, time will tell how it works out, but I'm pleased at this point and I haven't even really tapped into his end game str's. thanks again, for the comments.

[Dexxaan]

I have been working on a intimitank build for a while and have come up with 4 options to choose from. All of them are built basically the same, but have a different race. What I DON'T want is the uber know it all's to bash and tear everything down, remind me how unworthy I am to even suggest a build on the forums that doesn't match their builds, or anything else meant to be negative or elitist. So, play nice or move on to another post.

The 4 races are: WF, Dwarf, Human, Halfling(WF and halfling...out the door) My favorite? Dwarf. And simply because you get the AC and CON Enhancements, Dwarven Axes, Giant AC Bonuses and Spell Saves Enhanements......UBER....enough said; Human is Nice for the Extra Skill Points, Feat and Versatility of STAT arrangements. Not to mention 20 SEC boosts that can save your arse ocassionaly


My basic stats for all four races are about the same. According to the race, they range as follows:

8 str (WRONG! - "Intimi-Shrimps" die or get people killed. Explanation will follow)
14-16 dex (14 about Ideal, +1 Tome = 15 +1 Enhancement = 16 +6 Item = 22....Chaching!)
17-18 con (Crazy as it may sound put CON as last on your list...it´ll be high enough as long as you dont do something crazy like start a STAT at 17-18 thinking you´ll be uber thanks to it...and paying thrugh the nose to attain it)
12 int (Nice, but ideal f you can get a +2 INT Tome before L2...thinking Long Term design of course)
6-8 wis (9 is ideal in most cases; with +1 Tome = 10 and +6 GS item = 16...good value for SP´s and Will Save Base)
13-15 cha (Too high for an IntimiTank...go 11-13)

The builds require 2-4 +1 tomes based on race. All 4 have the same splash of 2 rog, 3 pali and 11 ftr. (11-3-2 is a VERY nice choice, BUT actual AC will suffer a bit due to Evasion...3-4 AC IIRC, but Evasion will make you a VERY survivable player)They all share basically the same feats, but not exactly. I have evasion with very high saves with rog, immunities and aura's from pali, hps and feats with ftr. Also, have high UMD from rog....I suppose I could swap out rog for monk, but I don't like that scenario. (stay Rogue) I have a problem with the monk splash because of the high ac wearing a robe. Personally think it's absurd, even though I know the system will let you get away with it.

Toughness (1-2x)(Once is enough and even then at L11 you can dump it (Minos helm) and take a real weapon like Khopesh, or Great Cleave...), Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Force of Personality(Wasted Feat...your saves will be high enough), Shield Mastery(Almost a wasted feat, youre gonna hate the AP´s spent on it...and regret it), Improved Shield Mastery(as mentioned of SMastery), Bullheaded(Wasted feat), Iron Will, Improved Crit: Pierce, Skill Focus Intimidate (+3 wont make or break you...take something else) and Mobility(Stupidest feat in the game...only beaten by Power Critical). Some builds have Quick Draw just because of limited choices, but that is the main list. My skill pts are used for Balance, UMD and Intimidate. (Don´t disregard Jump, Tumble, Spot, all can benicely enhanced upon creation as Rogue level 1) I throw a few initial pts to swim, tumble, repair/heal, jump & haggle, but they dont get love after 1st lvl. (Here´s why Base INT 12 +2 Tome ideal Scenario...otherwise go 13 +1 Tome)

On all but the WF, I take all for lvl stats in Con. On the WF, I take one in dex to get to +7 dex (which is my max because of the limited Dex bonus to AC. I can only get benefit of +7 dex using a Mithral Tower Shield ).

My Saves end up in this range based on race:
35-39 Fort
30-37 Reflex
27-34 Will

My HP's range from 442-508.

My intimidate with a +15 item ranges from 54-55, (but that doesn't include the -4 penalty for halflings and dwarves) (Penalty will be higher depending on Mob; Hence the reasons to stay away from the Intimi-Shrimp)
My UMD ranges from 33-34 using only the Co6 or Delaras +3 item.
My balance ranges from 21-28 w/no item.

Note: This build is not uber spec'd out with equipment. I don't like grinding, so I won't run the titan 50+ times to get the ring or docent. If I get it, all the better. The main Items I will be using are this:
Helm from taps, Greater False Life belt or Dusk heart, Head of Good fortune, +3 umd, +15 intimidate, +6 dex/con/cha items, +5 Mithril Breast Plate, +5 prot, +4/5 Resist, Chaos Guards & +5 Mithral Tower Shield.

The generic enh's I took for all are as follows:
toughness max'd, pali ac and sav +1, Armor mastery 2, Tower Shield mastery 3, LoH 1, Intimidate 3-4, dex 1, cha 1 & Ftr ac boost 1
The race allowed me to take the following:
WF/Dwarf took con 2, Dwarf toughness max'd, WF/Human healer's friend/Impr recovery 3, Dwarf shield mastery 3 & Halfling reflex/will saves 3

Some of the race benefits to the build:
Halfling - ac boost, better saves, less hps, fewest tomes & negative intimidate
WF - Immunities, avg hps, less saves, better intimidate, most tomes & more ways to heal
Human - Highest intimidate, more feats, avg saves, avg hps & versitility
Dwarf - AC boost, DR boost (?? I want this...how´d I miss it?), highest hps, higher intimidate, avg saves, & most tomes

Okay, now for your input. Unless you have something constructive to say, move on. I am interested in flaws that I have not taken into consideration, or additions you would make, etc.....don't tell me to build your build/scrap mine. don't tell me I could boost this by grinding for 1000 hours to get a certain item. This is a build that most players can get to, so I'd like to stay close to it.

Which race would you take and why?

All notes in Yellow.

Hope they help you make a True-Durable and effective IntimiTank.

[Seacog]

fair enough, but I already have him to lvl 3.5 and have had no problems. At the end of ww's I was full of junk and hit medium, but I didn't have any trouble. As I stated before, I changed the original build and now have 12 str. I shouldn't have a ton of weapons, armor or other heavy equip to change out. Some, but only a fraction of the normal melee toon. Oh well, time will tell how it works out, but I'm pleased at this point and I haven't even really tapped into his end game str's. thanks again, for the comments.

oh okay ya changed it to 12, i musta missed that post.. <looks up to make sure he read everything> 12 is much more doable, you shouldnt have any encumbrance problems then as long as you dont collect every full plate for ya in the chest

[Dexxaan]

The problem is that he will still need to confirm the criticals, and with that to-hit, it won't happen often. He'll need to find +4/5 power 5 weapons just to reach the edge of having a too-low to hit with CE on. That means a bloodstone is going to be a must if this build wants to be offensive other than just on the forums.

LOL

DOH! Just read the follow up posts...your already L3 something... no matter advice stays as is.

GL

[Borror0]

Just don't add sucks, worthless, gimped unless there is a MAJOR flaw I have failed to see. I think that is fair enough, you don't?

Quite honestly, Lonewolfe, that's what AD did.

An intimitank with such a low Str isn't going to cut it, unless he is a rogue or TWF spec'd... which your character is not. Your character should be Str-based, rather than being Dex-based as he currently is. Your DPS is simply not going to cut it. In fact, Str-based S&B DPS doesn't cut it, but it's far better than an 8 Str character.

I want this...how&#180;d I miss it?

Dwarven Shield Mastery, each rank ups your Shield DR by 1. that's what he meant.