helpful advice requested. Know it alls and haters, need not apply

[Lonewolfe]

I have been working on a intimitank build for a while and have come up with 4 options to choose from. All of them are built basically the same, but have a different race. What I DON'T want is the uber know it all's to bash and tear everything down, remind me how unworthy I am to even suggest a build on the forums that doesn't match their builds, or anything else meant to be negative or elitist. So, play nice or move on to another post.

The 4 races are: WF, Dwarf, Human, Halfling


My basic stats for all four races are about the same. According to the race, they range as follows:

8 str
14-16 dex
17-18 con
12 int
6-8 wis
13-15 cha

The builds require 2-4 +1 tomes based on race. All 4 have the same splash of 2 rog, 3 pali and 11 ftr. They all share basically the same feats, but not exactly. I have evasion with very high saves with rog, immunities and aura's from pali, hps and feats with ftr. Also, have high UMD from rog....I suppose I could swap out rog for monk, but I don't like that scenario. I have a problem with the monk splash because of the high ac wearing a robe. Personally think it's absurd, even though I know the system will let you get away with it.

Toughness (1-2x), Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Force of Personality, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Bullheaded, Iron Will, Improved Crit: Pierce, Skill Focus Intimidate and Mobility. Some builds have Quick Draw just because of limited choices, but that is the main list. My skill pts are used for Balance, UMD and Intimidate. I throw a few initial pts to swim, tumble, repair/heal, jump & haggle, but they dont get love after 1st lvl.

On all but the WF, I take all for lvl stats in Con. On the WF, I take one in dex to get to +7 dex (which is my max because of the limited Dex bonus to AC. I can only get benefit of +7 dex using a Mithral Tower Shield ).

My Saves end up in this range based on race:
35-39 Fort
30-37 Reflex
27-34 Will

My HP's range from 442-508.

My intimidate with a +15 item ranges from 54-55, (but that doesn't include the -4 penalty for halflings and dwarves)
My UMD ranges from 33-34 using only the Co6 or Delaras +3 item.
My balance ranges from 21-28 w/no item.

Note: This build is not uber spec'd out with equipment. I don't like grinding, so I won't run the titan 50+ times to get the ring or docent. If I get it, all the better. The main Items I will be using are this:
Helm from taps, Greater False Life belt or Dusk heart, Head of Good fortune, +3 umd, +15 intimidate, +6 dex/con/cha items, +5 Mithril Breast Plate, +5 prot, +4/5 Resist, Chaos Guards & +5 Mithral Tower Shield.

The generic enh's I took for all are as follows:
toughness max'd, pali ac and sav +1, Armor mastery 2, Tower Shield mastery 3, LoH 1, Intimidate 3-4, dex 1, cha 1 & Ftr ac boost 1
The race allowed me to take the following:
WF/Dwarf took con 2, Dwarf toughness max'd, WF/Human healer's friend/Impr recovery 3, Dwarf shield mastery 3 & Halfling reflex/will saves 3

Some of the race benefits to the build:
Halfling - ac boost, better saves, less hps, fewest tomes & negative intimidate
WF - Immunities, avg hps, less saves, better intimidate, most tomes & more ways to heal
Human - Highest intimidate, more feats, avg saves, avg hps & versitility
Dwarf - Ac boost, DR boost, highest hps, higher intimidate, avg saves, & most tomes

Okay, now for your input. Unless you have something constructive to say, move on. I am interested in flaws that I have not taken into consideration, or additions you would make, etc.....don't tell me to build your build/scrap mine. don't tell me I could boost this by grinding for 1000 hours to get a certain item. This is a build that most players can get to, so I'd like to stay close to it.

Which race would you take and why?

[Angelus_dead]

Okay, now for your input. Unless you have something constructive to say, move on. I am interested in flaws that I have not taken into consideration, or additions you would make, etc.....don't tell me to build your build/scrap mine. don't tell me I could boost this by grinding for 1000 hours to get a certain item. This is a build that most players can get to, so I'd like to stay close to it.

You say you don't want anything negative, but you didn't mention this specifically, and it would be very dishonest for me to let it go unmentioned:
Your character will suck because you don't have any strength.

I see that you don't want to talk about that, so I won't go into detail on why that is. Lets just answer your question

Which race would you take and why?

Take human.
Halfling would fail because of the size penalty on intimidate.
Warforged would fail because of the racial penalty on healing.
Dwarf would be acceptable, although has -1 intimidate.
Human is superior because of better charisma and racial healability enhancement.

[Lonewolfe]

I failed to put this in the notes and it's very important since it explains the toons existence. This is a pure turtle build. It is meant to be able to hold agro for ALL content (at this moment), have high blocking ac, high hps, high saves, and be able to be healed fairly easily. I am willing to hear comments like, your str is too low to accomplish _____. I am not open to hear you "suck". This plan is not to be a dps guy. I am to hold agro and take a punch. I could add a +6 str item, +1 enh & +1 tome to get to 16, but don't see the need. I took weapon finesse since I have high dex and still need to be able to hit some. I would probably use a w/p rapier or w/e rapier or some stat killing combo. If you would like to tell me something I'm missing on str "other than dmg", I would like to hear it.

Again, this is a toon that anyone can build w/out the best equipment. Anyone that has a high lvl toon can get all of this equipment or already has it.

As you can see from above, there isn't a significant diff in any of the stats on these toons. Most of the stats on all 4 toons is wiht 1-4 of each other. So to say that a -4 intimidate makes the halfling not work means that you are completely negating the higher saves and ac. The WF has healing enh's max'd and can be healed by casters, too. Therefore, I think that your statement about him is not accurate. I actually was leaning towards the wf or dwarf. I think the dwarf is the best all around, but I like the benefits of the wf, too. Am I correct in saying that they are immune to enervation by the beholders? If so, he would be a beholder killer with a w/e weapon and huge saves. The human has higher int and some better heals, but with that high of hps and the ac/dr I will have, I don't feel that I will be heavily dmg'd much. Again, I will be a turtle if being hit hard.

[Gornn]

I would go 14 dex and put the rest into strength.

With a +2 tome and a +6 item that gets you to 22. An excellent dex for +5 mithril full plate and fighter AC enhancements.

The low strength will be a significant weakness. I understand being a turtle, but there will be times where you'll be required to hit stuff.

[splinterx]

Hey dude i understand where your coming from with the 'I dont want them to tell me it sucks', but why do you post something on these forums if your going to take perfectly good advice and say no?

[Lonewolfe]

I would go 14 dex and put the rest into strength.

With a +2 tome and a +6 item that gets you to 22. An excellent dex for +5 mithril full plate and fighter AC enhancements.

The low strength will be a significant weakness. I understand being a turtle, but there will be times where you'll be required to hit stuff.

I need the dex as is to get the best dex benefit for my ac wearing MBP. I could lower cha some, but that hurts my intimidate, UMD and Pali save bonus.

I can hit better with a 24 dex and weapon finesse than I can with 22 str. I won't do as much dmg, but I'm not trying to. I understand that some things in the game are immune to intimidate, but the rest of the team would have to help kill them ( like they would anyway ). So....I would be able to do things that most can't or won't do in "most" of the quests, and the rest of the team would have to do it for the small number of mobs I can't hold agro on. (Spiders and such.)

[Lonewolfe]

[QUOTE=Angelus_dead;1844316]
Your character will suck because you don't have any strength.


this is what I am referencing Splinterx.

And I didn't say I wouldn't take good advice. I said I didn't want to have a bash session. If someone makes a good point that I agree with, I will thank them and make the change. I DON'T think I know it all or that it is impossible for me to have overlooked somehting. That is why I'm asking. Just because I don't believe that a small difference in one stat is enough to negate him from the choices doesn't count as ignoring good advice.

Now, if you see a flaw that I don't, I would like to hear it. Just don't add sucks, worthless, gimped unless there is a MAJOR flaw I have failed to see. I think that is fair enough, you don't?

[Lonewolfe]

Hey dude i understand where your coming from with the 'I dont want them to tell me it sucks', but why do you post something on these forums if your going to take perfectly good advice and say no?

BTW, just to clarify....what advice are you referencing that I said no to?

[Reisz]

Human

It opens up the mark of the sentinel feats and house Deneith intimidate enhancements

1 feat and 1 AP will net you another +3 intimidate

The lesser and greater marks of the sentinel are not very useful but they open up more of the Deneith intimidate line

[Lonewolfe]

Human

It opens up the mark of the sentinel feats and house Deneith intimidate enhancements

1 feat and 1 AP will net you another +3 intimidate

The lesser and greater marks of the sentinel are not very useful but they open up more of the Deneith intimidate line

True and I have them accounted for. That is why the human has the highest Intimidate.

[krud]

I'm assuming it's a 28pt build because you should be able to get a few higher stats with 32 pts.

Re: STR - You probably will want some kind of strength. Stat damagers are nice (if that's what you plan on using) but there are enough creatures around that aren't affected by them that you'll be glad you have some kind of strength to matter when the situation arises.

Re: DEX - I wouldn't suggest weapon finesse unless you plan on having a really high dex (which I see you are not going to do). You just need enough dex to potentially max out Mithral BP. You could easily have enough dex, and a str that is high enough for offense.

Re: CON - 16 should be enough (18 if racially favored), the rest can go into strength.

An intimitank is nice, but there is really no reason you can't have offense and intimidate at the same time. As far as race I'm partial to human, especially when trying to make a character who does quite a few different things. That's what humans are good at, versatility.

[Aranticus]

since you are not interested in A_D's advice, i'll start tearing your build apart. am i uber no, but i'm smart enough to take advice when someone say my build sux

lets start with stats

8 str - way too low. have you ever tried using intimidate? if not go test for yourself before you make this toon. sure high intimidate can help you grab agro but the amount of time it last is shorter than the time for the cooldown timer. how does str figure into play? if you lose agro, how are you going to grab it back? by the time your cooldown is over, the party would have wipe. having a high str means you can pull agro with damage as well, by doing more damage on the mob than the others will ensure that the mob will never leave you. good luck with 8 str

18 con? for what? 1 more hp per lvl for 16 more (20 at new cap)? n to do that you use 6 build points which could bring up the other stats? if you think hp is so important, think again. if your ac is so high, you wont get hit, then why would you need so much hp? sure hp is good, but at the expense of other abilities. sorry no.

who are you going to kid with a 24 dex and going weapon finesse? +7 mod bonus? assuming you have 16 bab, GH, you only get to +27. what are you exactly hitting?

iron will? is that +2 to will so important when u have a 25 will save? chuck the feat away and get something more useful

mobility? who are you kidding. +4 ac when tumbling? so what happens? why even intimidate when you cant stand still? what about being a turtle? you tumble, you gain +4 ac, but lose all the DR from shield blocking. if you really thing ac is needed, then you wasted 2 feats on DR. vice versa

what do u need repair/heal for? to gain more hp from shrines? a wasted skill. haggle too

item slots we have are head trinket necklace body bracers cloak glove belt 2x ring and boots. helm minos, belt GFL, body +5 mbp, trinkent head, bracers chaosgarde. intimidate item mostly head and ring, so ring for +15 intimidate. str on glove bracers ring, so glove for +6 str. cha on ring helm cloak, likely cloak. +5 resist best chance boots of innocent. thus ring 2 has to be dex. do you see your problem? you dun like to grind, there is no way for you to fit in all the items on yourself to maximise your build. greensteel grinding is a must

enhancement wise, you place a premium on hp again why? why have 500 hp when you will not be getting hit? fighter's enhancement L1, why even bother?

you dun even know the usefulness of the various races on this build. halflings can get the dragonmarks to make this toon into a self healing monster. 16 hp loss is not a big issue and the extra 1 ac is going to help alot. the problem with wf is the ability to get sufficient ac for your needs. GOOD luck squeezing into a +5 mbp. a wf build around docent of defiance and a good shield is much better than built around for ac. humans get less versatility? wrong, if you are so interested in ac boost enhancements, the human versatility enhancement can get you 5 types of boost than 1, damage, attack, saves, ac, skills. the variety is there and it fits your build most. dwarves have higher intimidate? who are you tanking? 100% goblinoids? the best thing about the dwarf is the ability to get hp but more importantly, you APs spent on ac enhancements are less

the most important thing about this build is the gear and you are telling the ddo world you are not interested in grinding. then why hell want an ac build? an ac build is very dependant on good gear some of which will require alot of grinding to obtain. your ac will be

base: 10
+5 mbp: +10
+5 mts: +9
chaosgarde: +2
24 dex: +7
+5 prot: +5
pally aura: +2
combat expertise: +5
alchemical ritual: +2
barkskin pot: +3
total (without grinding) = 55

chattering ring: +3
shroud insight: +4
total with grinding = 62

no grinding? 35% chance of misses? that is a significant number

[vyvy3369]

have you ever tried using intimidate? if not go test for yourself before you make this toon. sure high intimidate can help you grab agro but the amount of time it last is shorter than the time for the cooldown timer.

They recently changed this, so you can in fact keep something intimidated continually by ONLY using intimidate. It's been my experience that if you mix intimidate & attacking they will occasionally lose aggro while you complete a swing just as intimidate becomes available, but for a turtle they shouldn't suffer that problem.

Edit: the best example I can think of is the Bearded Devil in part 2 of the Shroud. A few runs ago things started going south, and people had to go up to assist in taking down the devil. This was causing him to teleport all over the place because he had seen more people, and making things much more difficult than they should have been. I went up there, turtled up and only used intimidate, and allowed the original tank to do all of the damage. If you're slightly too slow he can teleport away, but if all you do is spam intimidate he'll stay on you.

Edit2: to contribute a bit to the OP, I do have a couple problems with your feat choices too. Two toughness feats is one more than you need - a single feat opens up the enhancement lines, and any further ones give you a relatively small increase in effectiveness for the cost. Mobility seems like it isn't useful for you - IIRC, if you tumble you are no longer considered blocking, which seems to be the primary point of your build. Maybe it's different if you can actually Tumble instead of Hop I guess.

[nbhs275]

I failed to put this in the notes and it's very important since it explains the toons existence. This is a pure turtle build. It is meant to be able to hold agro for ALL content (at this moment), have high blocking ac, high hps, high saves, and be able to be healed fairly easily. I am willing to hear comments like, your str is too low to accomplish _____. I am not open to hear you "suck". This plan is not to be a dps guy. I am to hold agro and take a punch. I could add a +6 str item, +1 enh & +1 tome to get to 16, but don't see the need. I took weapon finesse since I have high dex and still need to be able to hit some. I would probably use a w/p rapier or w/e rapier or some stat killing combo. If you would like to tell me something I'm missing on str "other than dmg", I would like to hear it.

Again, this is a toon that anyone can build w/out the best equipment. Anyone that has a high lvl toon can get all of this equipment or already has it.

As you can see from above, there isn't a significant diff in any of the stats on these toons. Most of the stats on all 4 toons is wiht 1-4 of each other. So to say that a -4 intimidate makes the halfling not work means that you are completely negating the higher saves and ac. The WF has healing enh's max'd and can be healed by casters, too. Therefore, I think that your statement about him is not accurate. I actually was leaning towards the wf or dwarf. I think the dwarf is the best all around, but I like the benefits of the wf, too. Am I correct in saying that they are immune to enervation by the beholders? If so, he would be a beholder killer with a w/e weapon and huge saves. The human has higher int and some better heals, but with that high of hps and the ac/dr I will have, I don't feel that I will be heavily dmg'd much. Again, I will be a turtle if being hit hard.

Ok, this is why 8 str is too little.

BECAUSE YOU WILL BE TO GOD **** WEAK TO CARRY YOUR ARMOR AND SHIELD!.

Also, Dex only has to be 22-24 MAX. Because no matter what a TS will cap you at 7 even if its mithral and you have all the fighter enhancments

WF, Do NOT make good intimitanks really because of their racial armor types being inheriently weaker, and the healing problem.

Halflings take such a large hit to intimidate that the amount of cha you have to add to make up for it gimps the build.

Dwarf Get good tanking feats, and can easily reach high HP amounts. Humans get an extra feat, and a number of good enhancments.

You should be looking at a 14 base dex/con/cha, a 16 Str, and 12 intel. These could be refined and changed depending on final build and race.

[Aranticus]

They recently changed this, so you can in fact keep something intimidated continually by ONLY using intimidate. It's been my experience that if you mix intimidate & attacking they will occasionally lose aggro while you complete a swing just as intimidate becomes available, but for a turtle they shouldn't suffer that problem.

Edit: the best example I can think of is the Bearded Devil in part 2 of the Shroud. A few runs ago things started going south, and people had to go up to assist in taking down the devil. This was causing him to teleport all over the place because he had seen more people, and making things much more difficult than they should have been. I went up there, turtled up and only used intimidate, and allowed the original tank to do all of the damage. If you're slightly too slow he can teleport away, but if all you do is spam intimidate he'll stay on you.

Edit2: to contribute a bit to the OP, I do have a couple problems with your feat choices too. Two toughness feats is one more than you need - a single feat opens up the enhancement lines, and any further ones give you a relatively small increase in effectiveness for the cost. Mobility seems like it isn't useful for you - IIRC, if you tumble you are no longer considered blocking, which seems to be the primary point of your build. Maybe it's different if you can actually Tumble instead of Hop I guess.

i missed the change then again what is the use if you only turtle? why do people even invite you to the party compare to other builds which intimidate as well as dps? the other thing is how are you going to retain that hate should you be too slow to hit the button or miss it due to range? run around doing nothing for the next 6 seconds?

my fighter was not build to intimidate but in certain quests he is able to "intimidate" simply by use of damage. do enough, you gain the agro. simple as that. however, i have to admit this does not work all the time. but sufficient well when u need and when u can apply it

[Angelus_dead]

Now, if you see a flaw that I don't, I would like to hear it. Just don't add sucks, worthless, gimped unless there is a MAJOR flaw I have failed to see. I think that is fair enough, you don't?

Certainly! The flaw is that you don't have enough strength. By your own criteria I should add sucks, worthless, and gimped, because the flaw is a "MAJOR" one.

The simple reasons are:
1. Can't carry your armor, shields, and weapons.
1b. Enemies with a strength-penalty attack will incap you in a single shot.
1c. Or if you're not quite incap, at least you'll lose your AC.
2. Can't use stat damage because you can't break monster DR.
2b. Can't use stat damage because you can't hit monster AC.
3. Intimitanking is not always useful.

I'll expand on point 3:
In the majority of situations in DDO, it is not helpful to stand there holding aggro and doing no damage. There are times when that's useful, but they're rare. Most of the time it's better to either hold aggro and do damage, or drop aggro and do even more damage. Holding all aggro onto one character is not generally useful enough to be worth a character slot in the party.

Simply, there are a lot of scenarios where the only effective tactic is to kill the monsters really fast.

Additionally, many of the most dangerous monster attacks are magical rays that don't care about AC or DR, and which might not even care about saving throws either. Hitpoints help defend against that, but they're not a major benefit: if a monster puts out 2k hp before it dies, then that's 2k hp the cleric needs to heal, regardless of whether the tank had 250 hp or 500. All your hitpoint total does is give the cleric player a little more time to push the button. A barbarian would have same or more hp than you, with the additional gigantic benefit of actually killing the monster faster so it has less time to do damage.

[kamimitsu]

I tried a turtle build. Dragonmarked halfing pally/fighter. I could burst heal like a mofo, had quite decent AC (+5 MFP, chaosgardes, high DEX) and saves, intimidate almost anything etc. etc. He was a blast until level 12, then he started to get a bid dull. My STR was significantly higher than yours, and I STILL couldn't hit very much. Intimidate and turtle up really doesn't help your party that much at the higher levels... the mobs have lots of HP and will all be swinging at you until your teammates take them out (which can take some time, if outnumbered heavily). When they roll a 20 they hit hard and since there are lots of them, you will get hit (and likely more than you want). For what it's worth, I say roll the guy up, play him until you hit the upper limit of usefulness and fun, then re-roll a DPS/AC/Intimitank to replace him (using what you've learned).

[Samadhi]

Comments to your question:

Healability: yep human hands down.
HP: dwarf, plus dwarf gives you extra ability to get more dex out of your armors
WF - no comment b/c I personally don't use them
Halfling: Rocking saves and, for most intimitanks, the -4 intimidate penalty is easily overcome. Now, if you are serious about intimidating EVERYTHING in the game, though, then probably go elsewhere.

Comments as to why your str being that low is a bad idea:

1) You want to be a pure turtle? Great. What about the quests where there is NO USE for a pure turtle? Are you planning on not playing these quests or just hoping the rest of the group can carry you? Be advised, this is a very dangerous road to not build in some versatility. It is 100% possible to build an AWESOME turtle that can STILL DO AVERAGE DPS when needed. Please take this advice seriously or expect your name to get around and be ignored a decent bit. There are many, many quests where a pure turtle is AWESOME; but what are you going to do in those other quests if you go pure turtle?

2) What quests will this build not work? Shroud part 4&5 comes immediately to mind. All of the quests filled with spiders and rats and oozes that cannot be influenced. Many undead are also immune. Let's not forget bosses that regenerate or heal themselves quickly. Sure you can hold aggro, but if the rest of the party is unable to overtake the bosses healing/regen ability - your group is out of luck real quick.

I'm not hating on your build in general. 11/3/2 is tested and true. And, largely, your racial decision could largely be just on your flavor and still be successful. For versatility purposes, however, I would seriously reconsider your str.

[Lonewolfe]

[QUOTE=Samadhi;1844438]Comments to your question:

Healability: yep human hands down.
HP: dwarf, plus dwarf gives you extra ability to get more dex out of your armors
WF - no comment b/c I personally don't use them
Halfling: Rocking saves and, for most intimitanks, the -4 intimidate penalty is easily overcome. Now, if you are serious about intimidating EVERYTHING in the game, though, then probably go elsewhere.




Wow, I must pinch myself. Someone who can actually say, think about this when making the toon instead of you suck and are worthless. I was just in the middle of writing a response to the know it all azzez A.D. and Ant, but now I will take the high road. Their comments were EXACTLY what I put in the 1st paragraph that I didn't want. Just politely move on....but knooooow, their arrogance can't be held. It is just too much to ask to be helpful with all of their self proclaimed knowledge. So I will file their advice, some correct -some incorrect, in the same place with all the other trash. Thank you for the helpful comments, Samadhi. I will try to adjust str somewhat by lowering cha and con. If I lower Cha too much, I might as well take all ftr after 2 rog. but then I lose the saves for wil and evasion. Oh well, I will work on it some.

[Angelus_dead]

Wow, I must pinch myself. Someone who can actually say, think about this when making the toon instead of you suck and are worthless.

Nobody said "You suck"
Nobody said "You are worthless".

What was said is that "the character sucks because his strength is too low", and that happens to be true. At first I just mentioned that in passing because I saw that you didn't want to talk about it. But then you came back and requested major flaws to be pointed out to you:

Now, if you see a flaw that I don't, I would like to hear it. Just don't add sucks, worthless, gimped unless there is a MAJOR flaw I have failed to see. I think that is fair enough, you don't?

Well, there is a major flaw, so pursuant to your direct request I pointed it out.

I was just in the middle of writing a response to the know it all azzez A.D. and Ant, but now I will take the high road. Their comments were EXACTLY what I put in the 1st paragraph that I didn't want. Just politely move on....but knooooow, their arrogance can't be held. It is just too much to ask to be helpful with all of their self proclaimed knowledge.

You are the one being arrogant.