Experienced player, first time Bard.

[bandyman1]

Actually, that's a little unture. I have made a bard, and played to fourth level, but deleted her in favor of a monk.

Regardless; I'm not " in the know " when it comes to building bards. So what I'd like is a useful build for endgame, that meets the following criteria;

1) Halfling. Sorry folks but these little guys are my favorite race.
2) Warchanter
3) TWFing with khopesh

I'm thinking 1 level of fighter for feat ( going to need WF:slashing, Imp. crit:slashing, GTWing, Extend, and Power attack I'm thinking ). One thing that concerns me is the Dex for GTWing interfering with the amount of Str. ( on a halfling no less ) I'm going to need for to-hit on a lower BaB class with non-finessable weapons. Although I'm guessing my bard buffs are going to come in to play.

Gear is not an issue. I have access to the best. However, I'd like to leave +2 tomes out of the equation from the start, until I'm comfortable with the build, I won't be dropping any on this toon. +1s are np. Also, I'm a little short on larges after equipping two min IIs on my tempest build, so I'd like to leave tier III GS items as a must out of the equation. They should enhance the build, not be a requirement from the get-go.

So, thanks in advance.

[bandyman1]

Bump. Still haven't gotten around to this toon.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

I have just a couple of comments. I was playing around with starting stats on a 32 point halfling and I'd recommend the following:

S 16
D 16
C 14
I 8
W 8
Ch 12

If you ate a +1 Dex tome you'd have the GTWF dex requirement which would leave you able to put level up points into strength. Be aware that with a 12 Charisma to start, you'll probably end up with around 700 SP at end game for buffing (at a minimum) which is plenty for a Warchanter.

I find the trickiest part of playing a Warchanter is HP and BAB. If you can fit a Toughness feat in there you should. It's tough to get to 400 HP with a starting 14 Con and requires gear and dedicated focus to reach a respectable amount of HP for end game. While Displacement is a huge help to overcome the lack of AC and HP, many of the bosses at end game have true seeing and you will find you get whacked alot more than a tank type with comparable HP. So, to me, a starting 14 Con is a minimum and a must.

Second is the BAB issue. Divine Power clickies can help but don't last long so the Madstone boots are the easiest way to get fighter BAB, the trick is to time it with the short term buffs so that you aren't waiting around for the Madstone to wear off before you can displace and haste yourself again. Trust me, this can get irritating, lol.

Anyway, for now, those are the biggest pieces of advice I can offer. Hope this helps!

[Demoyn]

Those stats look pretty good. I personally might even drop the charisma by 2 and increase the con by 1 to account for a +3 tome.

The real problem here is going to be your feats. I don't think it's even possible to enjoy this build without at LEAST two levels of fighter, and that's going to keep you away from inspire heroics (dodge song) until the next mod (minimum 3 years away).

The must-have feats for this character are: two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon focus: slashing, power attack, exotic weapon proficiency: khopesh. That's already six feats, which is all you'd get without fighter.

Now you have to take one extra feat slot to squeeze in: extend spell, toughness, improved critical: slashing, and oversized two weapon fighting (warchanters have a low attack rating and dual khopesh won't help).

In reality you need to think about giving up either khopeshes or halfling (or both). I tried to make a human pure warchanter a few days ago and just couldn't find a way to fit the feats to my satisfaction. A halfling with one level of fighter will have the exact same issue.

[bandyman1]

The real problem here is going to be your feats. I don't think it's even possible to enjoy this build without at LEAST two levels of fighter, and that's going to keep you away from inspire heroics (dodge song) until the next mod (minimum 3 years away).

The must-have feats for this character are: two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon focus: slashing, power attack, exotic weapon proficiency: khopesh. That's already six feats, which is all you'd get without fighter.

Now you have to take one extra feat slot to squeeze in: extend spell, toughness, improved critical: slashing, and oversized two weapon fighting (warchanters have a low attack rating and dual khopesh won't help).

In reality you need to think about giving up either khopeshes or halfling (or both). I tried to make a human pure warchanter a few days ago and just couldn't find a way to fit the feats to my satisfaction. A halfling with one level of fighter will have the exact same issue.

Good catch. The original post is almost a year old, lol. So when I did the original feat breakdown, I was counting on Mino's Legens covering the toughness, as that was before they announced the fix. Humm, as for weapons....may have to do scimi's instead.

[bandyman1]

I have just a couple of comments. I was playing around with starting stats on a 32 point halfling and I'd recommend the following:

S 16
D 16
C 14
I 8
W 8
Ch 12

If you ate a +1 Dex tome you'd have the GTWF dex requirement which would leave you able to put level up points into strength. Be aware that with a 12 Charisma to start, you'll probably end up with around 700 SP at end game for buffing (at a minimum) which is plenty for a Warchanter.

I find the trickiest part of playing a Warchanter is HP and BAB. If you can fit a Toughness feat in there you should. It's tough to get to 400 HP with a starting 14 Con and requires gear and dedicated focus to reach a respectable amount of HP for end game. While Displacement is a huge help to overcome the lack of AC and HP, many of the bosses at end game have true seeing and you will find you get whacked alot more than a tank type with comparable HP. So, to me, a starting 14 Con is a minimum and a must.

Second is the BAB issue. Divine Power clickies can help but don't last long so the Madstone boots are the easiest way to get fighter BAB, the trick is to time it with the short term buffs so that you aren't waiting around for the Madstone to wear off before you can displace and haste yourself again. Trust me, this can get irritating, lol.

Anyway, for now, those are the biggest pieces of advice I can offer. Hope this helps!

TYVM for the advice.

[Demoyn]

Good catch. The original post is almost a year old, lol. So when I did the original feat breakdown, I was counting on Mino's Legens covering the toughness, as that was before they announced the fix. Humm, as for weapons....may have to do scimi's instead.

There's a few different ways you can go with this. First you have to choose your level split.

Your best splits will be pure bard, 15 bard / 1 fighter, or 15 bard / 2 fighter. It really comes down to how much you want to maximize your bard buffs.

At level 20 bards will get another +1/+1 to their songs just for being a bard (not capstone, just class progression). This is the reason I was trying to make a pure warchanter the other day. At 15 / 1 you'll get the best buffs currently, but you won't get the best buffs at level 20. Going 14 / 2 will give you the best melee, but you'll have to wait until next mod to get inspire heroics, which is a staple for many raiding bards currently.

After you decide the split, the sacrifices you're willing to make to create a good build will be mostly evident. The other things you can do to help ease the feat requirements is to play human for the extra feat, elf/drow for the rapier enhancements, or dwarf (if taking fighter levels) for the waraxes and enhancements. If you're dead set on playing a halfling it can still work (and do better DPS if you gear more for that instead of songs), but that's just one of the sacrifices you have to add to your list.

The best warchanter I've put together is currently on page 6 of this forum. Noctus also made a few comments on how to get more DPS, but I wasn't willing to sacrifice inspire heroics. Maybe you should look it over and decide what you're willing to sacrifice and what you want to focus on the most, then we can get you a build together.

[Freeman]

Feats are definitely the toughest aspect of a TWF Warchanter, as the others said above. I'd personally want all of the following feats at a minimum: Power Attack, Weapon Focus, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Crit, Toughness, and Extend, which would cover all the feats a pure bard would get up to level 20. With two fighter levels, you could fit Khopesh and OTWF in there as well, if you decided to go that route, which I think might be optimal for this build. The 20th level song bump will make your songs slightly less effective than a pure Warchanter, but you'll get a lot of benefit out of the two fighter levels for your character. Aside from the two feats, you'll also get +1 Str and +10hp from the fighter enhancements. The strength is nice, but the hitpoints(18 total from two fighter levels and enhancement) will help out even more, since I think you'll be on the low end for melee at higher levels.

If you wanted to keep it down to one level of fighter, you could probably get away with it by dropping OTWF. As a Halfling, you would be able to use the Halfling Cunning/Guile flanking bonuses to offset the extra penalty you would receive. However, if you are already splashing one level of fighter, you might as well take two. If you wanted to stay pure bard, I would probably do as you mentioned and go with dual scimitars instead(Or whatever martial weapon is your best). At the least, the Halfling sneak attack bonuses would help even out the difference in damage between you and a khopesh user. Also, by not taking the exotic proficiency, you wouldn't be competing with every other khopesh user out there for weapons in the trade forums

Overall, as Demoyn said, you will have to either take a couple levels of fighter or scale back on what you want. I'd probably go with the two fighter levels myself if I were trying to build a character like you described.

As for the BAB issue, do people have trouble hitting at end-game? I gathered quite a few Divine Power clickies after seeing so many people commenting on using them, but I've found that I've only had to use them in a few elite quests/raids. On normal, I haven't run into much that I can't hit on a 2 on my first swing. I don't TWF, but that -2 penalty wouldn't be a significant difference. Granted, there are probably some mobs in quests that I still haven't fought enough to notice if I missed more often, so are there some particular high AC mobs I should test myself against?

[Demoyn]

As for the BAB issue, do people have trouble hitting at end-game?

My wife's bard 15 / fighter 1 misses enough that we decided to go with a shortsword for her off hand weapon instead of another rapier. She doesn't use divine power clickies, but typically has all other buffs.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

My wife's bard 15 / fighter 1 misses enough that we decided to go with a shortsword for her off hand weapon instead of another rapier. She doesn't use divine power clickies, but typically has all other buffs.

My point about BAB isn't so much about being able to hit, it has more to do with the number of swings. Maybe that's irrelevant at the end of the day, I just like being able to swing like a fighter when I'm meleeing something.

[Borror0]

I have made a bard, and played to fourth level, but deleted her in favor of a monk.

Have you lost your mind? No one would chose a monk over a warchanter, ever!

So what I'd like is a useful build for endgame, that meets the following criteria;

1) Halfling. Sorry folks but these little guys are my favorite race.
2) Warchanter
3) TWFing with khopesh

Personally, I'd go for:
15 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
11 Cha

If you ever plan to use a +2 Dex tome, move your Dex to 15 and raise Cha by 1. Very insignificant gain overall, though.

As for the feats, I'd go for:
1. Toughness
3. Power Attack
6. Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Weapon Focus: Slashing (fighter)
10. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
12. Improved Critical: Slashing
15. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18. Extend

I know you preferred to go 19b/1f but there is simply no advantage in doing so while going 18/2 grants you an extra feat, which you are starving for.

One thing that concerns me is the Dex for GTWing interfering with the amount of Str. ( on a halfling no less ) I'm going to need for to-hit on a lower BaB class with non-finessable weapons. Although I'm guessing my bard buffs are going to come in to play.

That's pretty much a non-issue. You have perma-Inspire Courage and have also Halfling Cunning IV, as a prereq to Halfling Guile.

[Shade]

As for the feats, I'd go for:
1. Toughness
3. Power Attack
6. Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Weapon Focus: Slashing (fighter)
10. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
12. Improved Critical: Slashing
15. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18. Extend

It's pretty dumb to take toughness now. Take extend now. And toughness later on if and when that day comes where the enhancements are locked without it.

Cuz a warchanter without extend? lol.

[Borror0]

It's pretty dumb to take toughness now. Take extend now. And toughness later on if and when that day comes where the enhancements are locked without it.

Cuz a warchanter without extend? lol.

I prefer Toughness over Extend by a long mile. You'll have to cast Haste a bit more often, who cares?

[Aerendil]

The other option is to give up Warchanter for a more general-purpose Bard, the Virtuoso.
You lose Ironskin chant and slightly better Inspire Courage mods, but you gain 1 or 2 feats (depending how you work things) plus Enthrall. And you can stay pure 20 Bard.

I know the OP wanted Warchanter, but the more times I try to build a Bard, the more I realize Warchanter and TWF are very difficult to match perfectly without alienating the rest of your bardic abilities.

Just a thought, anyways.

*edit* - you might also want to seriously consider going Human. Again, another "not the OP's request" issue. But the extra feat for a Bard really can make or break a build :/

[Borror0]

The other option is to give up Warchanter for a more general-purpose Bard, the Virtuoso.

Virtuoso is a waste of AP. Warchanter, Spellsinger even, is good but Virtuoso is not worth the AP it costs.

[Noctus]

Virtuoso is a waste of space for a viable PrE.

If you want to tank, go Warchanter.
If you want to cast, go Spellsinger.
If you want to be selfgimped, go Virtuoso.

[Aerendil]

Virtuoso is a waste of AP. Warchanter, Spellsinger even, is good but Virtuoso is not worth the AP it costs.

Virt I requirements are CHA1, Perform II, Lingering I, and Extra Song II. Not sure how you guys spec, but I tend to pick most of those up on any Bard I make (aside from Perform II). So for an extra 3 AP, and one feat, I qualify for Virt.

I'd say Spellsinger is far worse for AP as it makes you completely devoted to the spell-casting side of things, whereas the Virtuoso AP requirements can be used to boost your songs which you'll always use.

Virtuoso is a waste of space for a viable PrE.

If you want to tank, go Warchanter.
If you want to cast, go Spellsinger.
If you want to be selfgimped, go Virtuoso.

Prove it. It's always been "viable". Warchanter has been more favoured, sure, but I have yet to be turned down for a group because I'm a Virt.

[Borror0]

Virt I requirements are CHA1, Perform II, Lingering I, and Extra Song II. Not sure how you guys spec, but I tend to pick most of those up on any Bard I make (aside from Perform II). So for an extra 3 AP, and one feat, I qualify for Virt.

Virtuoso also costs 4 APs. So, Virtuoso costs you 7 APs and a feat, that could all be better spent.

Honestly, what does Virtuoso offer that is good? Nothing.

Prove it.

Virtuoso I offers:

• +2 Diplomacy, Listen and Perform - Useless
• +3 uses of Bardic Music per rest - Useless
• +10% longer song duration - Decent
• Enthrall - Nearly useless

The only thing that has some value in all of the list, is the longer song duration but you can easily afford that with those 7 APs. As for Enthrall, it's barely better than Fascinate which is rarely used at end game any how. It's certainly not worth the feat it costs, let alone the APs that comes with it.

There is no good reason to pick up Virtuoso, at the moment.

It's always been "viable". Warchanter has been more favoured, sure, but I have yet to be turned down for a group because I'm a Virt.

That was not his point. His point is that there are no good reasons to pick up virtuoso, and he is right.

[Aerendil]

I still stand by my stance that Virtuoso is not "useless", nor is it "selfgimped".

Sure, Warchanter is better, but I still find a lot of use for Virt. Simply discounting it as a "useless" spec is elitist.

Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform are all class skills I use../shrug. The extra Bardic song uses per rest means I can have various songs up at all times and not really worry about running out of them. Enthrall I still use quite often when I run ahead of the group and mez everything. I don't care if it's broken 2 seconds later - the -2 to enemy attack rolls could save healing. My only beef with Enthrall is the high-end mobs that are immune, but my Virt isn't that high yet that it's become an issue, so I'll tackle that one as it arises.

I guess it comes down to playstyle? I don't know. All I know is that the way I play my Bard makes use of most of these skills listed above, and then some, and that I've never been turned down for a group nor called "gimp" in game. The only time I've seen prejudice is on these boards.

PS - "Virtuoso Enthrallment now uses the Perform skill as its DC, is affected by Lingering Song effects, and instead of always breaking on damage, targets now have a chance to break the effect when damaged." from Mod 9 patch notes may revive Enthrall.
I'd still love to see all Enthrall-based songs wrapped into one, but maybe that'll still get fixed (i.e. if you have MoTM and MoTD, and sing Enthrallment, anything that is capable of being mezzed should be. Having multiple song types for each enemy is bloody ridiculous).

[Borror0]

I guess it comes down to playstyle? I don't know. All I know is that the way I play my Bard makes use of most of these skills listed above

If you need Perform on your bard, you've done something wrong. My Perform DC is 45 and my bard has a 11 base Cha!

As for Listen and Diplomacy, they are only marginally useful. As for the extra songs, I have never ran out of my 16 songs at level 16 no matter how hard I tried. I don't see why you would. In fact, you'd be the first bard I would hear of running out of songs at end game.

I've never been turned down for a group nor called "gimp" in game.

A bad build does not prevent you from completing most quests in the game.