Experienced player, first time Bard.

[Aerendil]

Btw Borr, the same argument could be used for Warchanter.

Requirements:
- Weapon Focus (waste of a feat for a mere +1 to hit. Especially as certain races can get the same for 2 AP, and Warriors only take this as a prereq for Wpn Spec)
- Power Attack (perhaps needed later on, but useless at 6 or under)
- Inspired Attack I (useful)
- Inspired Damage I (useful)
- Inspired Bravery II (semi-useful. it's arguable though)

Granted
- Inspire Courage - +1hit/+2dmg/+1fear (great. but as most WCs splash Fighter, they'll lose out on +1/+1 at 20 anyways, not to mention any capstones)
- Ironskin chant - great
- +2 to intimidate (useless)

/shrug.
Every PrE has some good and some bad to it. If not for Tempest I prereqs, how many Rangers would go Spring Attack?
So you can poke holes in any PrE saying that a granted ability or prereq is "useless". It's all relative, really. Especially as what's useless for one gamer isn't for another.

Whatever, though. The vast majority of people on these boards are pro-Warchanter. And while I can agree that Warchanter does have the upper hand over the other 2 PrEs, I'll never understand the "the other PrE is useless" mentality. Far too elitist for my tastes. But to each their own, I guess. I give up trying to argue this point, though, as you have your frame of mind set, and I have mine.

PS - I'd argue a bad build DOES prevent you from completing quests.
Bad build = gimped character = reputation drops and people will not invite you into groups.
No groups = no completed quests.

[Borror0]

Btw Borr, the same argument could be used for Warchanter.

No, the argument is that Virtuoso offers nothing of value. Adding +2 to your raid party damage is invaluable. That's like adding an extra melee character.

I'll never understand the "the other PrE is useless" mentality.

It's simple. I can see arguments pro-warchanters. I can see arguments pro-spellsigner. I can't see arguments pro-virtuoso.

PS - I'd argue a bad build DOES prevent you from completing quests.
Bad build = gimped character = reputation drops and people will not invite you into groups.
No groups = no completed quests.

A great portion of your successfulness come from player skills. A very skilled player can carry a very bad build through most quests.

PS: A bad build is not necessarily gimped.

[Aerendil]

No, the argument is that Virtuoso offers nothing of value. Adding +2 to your raid party damage is invaluable. That's like adding an extra melee character.

Keep in mind, nothing stops a Virtuoso from maxing his/her IC song enhancements. It's tight, but it's possible.
Add in the fact that 90% of WCs multiclass at least 1 Fighter level, it means that at 20 with only the Tier I PrE benefits, the WC will have a mere +1 damage over a Virtuoso. That's it.
Also, at the current 16 cap, a 2 Fighter splash means you miss out on Inspire Heroics and level 6 spells. That's a huge loss.

Also, if you want to use the "raid party" scenerio, assuming the mobs aren't immune to Enthrall and I can pull it off, all mobs hit will be at -2 to hit when they wake up. Or, another way to to look at it is everyone in the raid just got a free +2 to AC. That's invaluable too. And with the upcoming changes, you might even have a half-dead enemy by the time they wake up from Enthrall, which saves invaluable amounts of healing.

*shrug*.
There's plenty of ways to look at this. And yes, Tier II and III Warchanter may put the nail in the coffin for Virtuosos. We'll have to see, I guess. But then again, Tier II and III Virtuoso may suddenly make it the most appealing Bard PrE. Who knows.

*edit* - good to hear on the bard, Bandy! You won't regret WC. I just get a bit defensive regarding Virtuoso because 99% of Bards on the boards rule it off as useless, but when you weigh the stats and/or pros and cons, it's not a huge difference at all. Noticeable, yes, but not a "useless" vs. "useful" change. Drives me nuts! Didn't mean to hijack the thread, haha

[bandyman1]

Have you lost your mind? No one would chose a monk over a warchanter, ever!

Lol, like I said; My OP is a year old bro. Never capped the monk either, couldn't stand it, lmao .

I've freed up a couple of spots recently ( one for FvS ), and decided to add the warchanter to my stable.

I know you preferred to go 19b/1f but there is simply no advantage in doing so while going 18/2 grants you an extra feat, which you are starving for.

This is what I leaning toward now.

That's pretty much a non-issue. You have perma-Inspire Courage and have also Halfling Cunning IV, as a prereq to Halfling Guile.

That was what I was hoping. The numbers looked OK to me, but I don't play bards, so I wanted to make sure.


Thanks so much everyone for the advice. I gain insights with every post.

And Aerendil; Thank you for the discussion on the pros and cons of Virtuoso vs Warchanter. I appreciate it, as like I said; I really don't know much about bards. But I think I'm pretty much dead-set on WC.

[Freeman]

Keep in mind, nothing stops a Virtuoso from maxing his/her IC song enhancements. It's tight, but it's possible.
Add in the fact that 90% of WCs multiclass at least 1 Fighter level, it means that at 20 with only the Tier I PrE benefits, the WC will have a mere +1 damage over a Virtuoso. That's it.
Also, at the current 16 cap, a 2 Fighter splash means you miss out on Inspire Heroics and level 6 spells. That's a huge loss.

Well, my WC is staying pure, and I know several others that are as well, so some of us will still be farther ahead on songs. Even without that, WC still have the DR song, which is going to be even more valuable with the upcoming changes.

Also, if you want to use the "raid party" scenerio, assuming the mobs aren't immune to Enthrall and I can pull it off, all mobs hit will be at -2 to hit when they wake up. Or, another way to to look at it is everyone in the raid just got a free +2 to AC. That's invaluable too. And with the upcoming changes, you might even have a half-dead enemy by the time they wake up from Enthrall, which saves invaluable amounts of healing.

I would actually assume that mobs were immune in any raid added since the Titan. I think the ellies in Reaver might not be, but I haven't tested in since they were upgraded. Everything in DQ is a red name, and I know the mobs in Shroud are immune to Fascinate. I think everything in Hound has Mind Blank, which grants immunity as well. I'm not sure about the devils in VOD, but they usually don't live long enough to even attempt to sing a song to them. The orthons are red-names, so they are immune. As for the -2 attack penalty, it is not invaluable by any means. For most characters running above Gianthold-level quests, a mob will hit them on a 2-20 roll. Give that mob a -2 attack penalty, and they'll still hit on a 2-20. Only an AC build will receive any benefit from it, and even then only if they are in the 2-19 range of the d20. If you want to save on healing, the Warchanter's DR song will save much more in the long run, particularly when thrown on an entire party, raid or otherwise.

The upcoming changes to Enthrall may make Virtuoso more viable at low levels, but the simple fact is that at high levels, a Warchanter or Spellsinger can bring much more to a party than a Virtuoso. Instead of simply trying to upgrade Fascinate, I think it would have been more useful to give Virtuoso's access to more diverse songs to buff the party with, along with more offensive songs.(I love the Curse Song in NWN) I do hope that they make it more viable, either in the later tiers or through some other change, but as it stands, the benefit just isn't there.

*shrug*.
There's plenty of ways to look at this. And yes, Tier II and III Warchanter may put the nail in the coffin for Virtuosos. We'll have to see, I guess. But then again, Tier II and III Virtuoso may suddenly make it the most appealing Bard PrE. Who knows.

*edit* - good to hear on the bard, Bandy! You won't regret WC. I just get a bit defensive regarding Virtuoso because 99% of Bards on the boards rule it off as useless, but when you weigh the stats and/or pros and cons, it's not a huge difference at all. Noticeable, yes, but not a "useless" vs. "useful" change. Drives me nuts! Didn't mean to hijack the thread, haha

I think the main reason I don't like Virtuoso is that nearly any bard would be better off going with Spellsinger instead. At low levels, the extra songs might be useful, but I'd still rather have the extra UMD and spell points. At higher levels, the extra songs aren't likely to be needed(At least I've never run out on either of my bards, even though they only have 16 or 17) The cost is nearly the same, one feat and APs, and the Spellsinger benefits are much more useful.(+100sp, +2 UMD, +2 Concentration versus 10% longer songs, +2 Listen, Perform, and Diplo) Also, in the raids I mentioned above, a Virtouso isn't any more useful than a bard without a specialty due to the immunities. On the other hand, the other two specialties have party buffs that are always useful, no matter what quest or enemy they are facing.

[spifflove]

That would be cool if virtuoso gave an automatic suggestion check.

[Tuney]

I'm pro-virtuoso, the only two major killing points to that PrE are Blanket immunities and slight inherient flaw in Fasninate, which makes it diffculit if not nearly impossable to use in 'everyday' pick up groups.

If so many mobs lost its blanket immunties/will immunity, it would end up making Fasinate better , if that one said change happened and that "chance" was based on the DC it could make it outright powerful. If they made enthrall work on more mobs based on the extra songs you can learn then HELL I'd pick Virtious right back up.

All 3 have bonus's I like but the one with the 'most' bonus i'd actily use is Spellslinger at least currently, my bard is weird she swiches between all 3 hehe.

[Oolung]

she's an unusual one, cappable of tanking arretrikos with low hp, some healing, 20 songs, spellsinger, has music of makers, and music of dead, drow, can hit over 50 ac...and i winged it to make one of my favorite toons...ill try and get the build if ya want me to...

[WeaselKing]

Bump. Still haven't gotten around to this toon.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Change halfling to Warforged. Change twf with Khopesh to THF with Greataxe. 18 str take a 16 con and the rest in cha. Take Power Attack (of course it is WArchanter pre-req) and THF chain (will really be good next mod). Maybe fit in a SF:UMD or a Toughness and bam there you go.

[bandyman1]

Change halfling to Warforged. Change twf with Khopesh to THF with Greataxe. 18 str take a 16 con and the rest in cha. Take Power Attack (of course) and THF chain (will really be good next mod). Maybe fit in a SF:UMD or a Toughness and bam there you go.

LOL.

But I want to be a USEFUL bard Flesh :P

[spifflove]

I have just a couple of comments. I was playing around with starting stats on a 32 point halfling and I'd recommend the following:

S 16
D 16
C 14
I 8
W 8
Ch 12

If you ate a +1 Dex tome you'd have the GTWF dex requirement which would leave you able to put level up points into strength. Be aware that with a 12 Charisma to start, you'll probably end up with around 700 SP at end game for buffing (at a minimum) which is plenty for a Warchanter.

I find the trickiest part of playing a Warchanter is HP and BAB. If you can fit a Toughness feat in there you should. It's tough to get to 400 HP with a starting 14 Con and requires gear and dedicated focus to reach a respectable amount of HP for end game. While Displacement is a huge help to overcome the lack of AC and HP, many of the bosses at end game have true seeing and you will find you get whacked alot more than a tank type with comparable HP. So, to me, a starting 14 Con is a minimum and a must.

Second is the BAB issue. Divine Power clickies can help but don't last long so the Madstone boots are the easiest way to get fighter BAB, the trick is to time it with the short term buffs so that you aren't waiting around for the Madstone to wear off before you can displace and haste yourself again. Trust me, this can get irritating, lol.

Anyway, for now, those are the biggest pieces of advice I can offer. Hope this helps!

This build already meets your criteria. Put all level ups into str.

1) twf
3) wf slash
6) PA
9) ic slash
12) itwf
15) gtwf
18) extend or khopesh

Go at it.

edited lol

[maddmatt70]

If you need Perform on your bard, you've done something wrong. My Perform DC is 45 and my bard has a 11 base Cha!

As for Listen and Diplomacy, they are only marginally useful. As for the extra songs, I have never ran out of my 16 songs at level 16 no matter how hard I tried. I don't see why you would. In fact, you'd be the first bard I would hear of running out of songs at end game.

A bad build does not prevent you from completing most quests in the game.

Sorry Borro0 but on elite vod bards have on numerous times in groups I have been on ran out of songs. I actually would recommend extra songs enhancements for some types of players. People that like to run elite vods with their bards to be specific. I also think having the extra songs enhancements would be beneficial for new content. Exploring the unknown takes longer and it is hard to plan out your songs accordingly.

I agree listen and diplomacy are not useful for a bard. Note: you should max your perform ranks of course, but it is not necessary to wear perform gear all the time although I will swap to the bard cloak on both my bards when I go into fascinate mode at the end game specifically fascinating in the subterrane.

In regards to your final comment. A well played bard that is built well can make a huge difference on any raid and on a 6 person quest. I say poppycock to anything different.

[maddmatt70]

This build already meets your criteria. Put all level ups into str.

1) twf
3) khopesh
6) itwf
9) ic slash
12) extend
15) gtwf
18) toughness or optional

Go at it.

You forgot power attack and weapon focus to qualify for warchanter. Make mineral 2s and drop extend to make up the difference. Next mod you can determine what your last feat will be.

[maddmatt70]

Keep in mind, nothing stops a Virtuoso from maxing his/her IC song enhancements. It's tight, but it's possible.
Add in the fact that 90% of WCs multiclass at least 1 Fighter level, it means that at 20 with only the Tier I PrE benefits, the WC will have a mere +1 damage over a Virtuoso. That's it.
Also, at the current 16 cap, a 2 Fighter splash means you miss out on Inspire Heroics and level 6 spells. That's a huge loss.

Also, if you want to use the "raid party" scenerio, assuming the mobs aren't immune to Enthrall and I can pull it off, all mobs hit will be at -2 to hit when they wake up. Or, another way to to look at it is everyone in the raid just got a free +2 to AC. That's invaluable too. And with the upcoming changes, you might even have a half-dead enemy by the time they wake up from Enthrall, which saves invaluable amounts of healing.

*shrug*.
There's plenty of ways to look at this. And yes, Tier II and III Warchanter may put the nail in the coffin for Virtuosos. We'll have to see, I guess. But then again, Tier II and III Virtuoso may suddenly make it the most appealing Bard PrE. Who knows.

*edit* - good to hear on the bard, Bandy! You won't regret WC. I just get a bit defensive regarding Virtuoso because 99% of Bards on the boards rule it off as useless, but when you weigh the stats and/or pros and cons, it's not a huge difference at all. Noticeable, yes, but not a "useless" vs. "useful" change. Drives me nuts! Didn't mean to hijack the thread, haha

I apprecaite the desire to make a different character, but virtuouso is just far worse then spellsinger and warchanter. It really is not close. When they give some love to virtuouso perhaps I will roll one, but not before.

[lOprahl]

Keep in mind, nothing stops a Virtuoso from maxing his/her IC song enhancements. It's tight, but it's possible.
Add in the fact that 90% of WCs multiclass at least 1 Fighter level, it means that at 20 with only the Tier I PrE benefits, the WC will have a mere +1 damage over a Virtuoso. That's it.
Also, at the current 16 cap, a 2 Fighter splash means you miss out on Inspire Heroics and level 6 spells. That's a huge loss.

This line of thinking is from paper play, not from actual in game experience. Aside from the Hound on Elite (debatable), please give me an example where this +1 difference in damage makes a difference.

Also, if you want to use the "raid party" scenerio, assuming the mobs aren't immune to Enthrall and I can pull it off, all mobs hit will be at -2 to hit

This is an excellent point. Its the only defensible stance to the Virtuoso = Gimp argument. -2 to will saves as well

*shrug*.
There's plenty of ways to look at this. And yes, Tier II and III Warchanter may put the nail in the coffin for Virtuosos. We'll have to see, I guess. But then again, Tier II and III Virtuoso may suddenly make it the most appealing Bard PrE. Who knows.

Would generally avoid commenting / building to what changes might come. Generally more affective to comment/build to the current state of the game.


OP: Go Halfling. Just capped a dex based evasion bard; Having a blast.

[Noctus]

I apprecaite the desire to make a different character, but virtuouso is just far worse then spellsinger and warchanter. It really is not close.

Thats the point.


If there are 3 choices of PrE and one is clearly, vastly inferior in utility compared to the other 2 (No, not comparing to running naked with a Muckbane, and without any PrE, but to the real alternatives.)

Taking the inferior PrE is selfgimping in the way of a Marathon-Runner who chooses to don full evening dress (white tie) before starting, while the other runners have choosen a T-Shirt, Sneakers and Trousers.
Yes, he can still reach his destiny, but it would have been so much easier if he had made a better choice of starting gear.




Nobody said that a Bard who chooses Virtuoso will suddently mutate into a useless gimp. But he will be worse off significantly as compared to choosing a PrE which actally gives real advantages.