Stacking Zeal

[Redcoil]

I was still looking at the movement vs the attack, never saw the newest post from El on the reimplication of it.

Ac should still be stacking :-)

[llevenbaxx]

I was still looking at the movement vs the attack, never saw the newest post from El on the reimplication of it.

Ac should still be stacking :-)

Did El say there was even still going to be the Deflction and movement bonuses? Thought it was a completely different implimentation than the from the book description. Only info I saw was a sacred bonus to attack speed, nothing more, nothing less. Did I miss an update somewhere?

[Redcoil]

Its changed many times, from +4 AC and Movement to +Sacred attack speed, to AC again...

[Freeman]

Did El say there was even still going to be the Deflction and movement bonuses? Thought it was a completely different implimentation than the from the book description. Only info I saw was a sacred bonus to attack speed, nothing more, nothing less. Did I miss an update somewhere?

The last quote from Eladrin was somewhat vague in that respect. Almost all of the discussion had been on the movement speed, so his response may have simply been addressing only that portion of the spell. The AC bonus was never mentioned in his response, either to include it or to say that it had been removed. The AC bonus may have been left unchanged from the original implementation, or it could have gone away, but until we get a definitive statement, I'm more inclined to believe that it is still part of the spell. But only about 60% sure, so it could easily go the other way.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

But to answer all the other questions:

If it is a "Deflection Bonus", then it does not stack, as you are likely wearing a Protection +4 or +5 Item (Iron Manacles, etc)

If it is an "Insight Bonus", then it does not stack with Parrying or a Green Steel Item/Weapon. The ever-popular Mineral II Khopesh with +4 Insight Bonus... it won't stack.

It would need to be a Sacred Bonus or Dodge Bonus, or a Misc Bonus (like the Paladin's Aura) in order for it to have a chance to Stack with anything of use.

Eladrin: PLEASE consider making Zeal a Sacred Bonus to both Speed *AND* to AC, so that it will be a useful spell. Another Deflection Bonus is just plain useless! Paladin's are having a hard enough time as the supposed "Defensive Melee" class, as they can't keep up with Fighters in the AC department (usually), nor can they maintain enough DPS to keep aggro (usually)... A +4 Sacred Bonus to AC would go a LONG way to help give Paladins that Defensive Boost we need to "fufill our role" in the party.

With a Sacred Bonus, then hitting Divine Favor + Zeal + Angelskin... then for 2-4 minutes (with extend), the Paladin really becomes a Defensive Melee Class (or at least can start to be that role).... but we also need some better overall damage boosting, so that we can maintain that aggro. Given the way that DDO's Aggro Management system works (which really appears to be "Who did the most damage to me? I'll aggro on him)... Paladins find themselves lagging behind the Fighters too much to really maintain that Aggro. Now, we will always be behind Barbarains... but that's the way it should be. Yes, in PnP the fighter usually outdamages the Pally a bit... but in order to be that "Defensive Melee Class" that the Paladin is supposed to be, we either need to get Intimidate (or some like-effect skill) as a class skill / Enhancement / Ability / etc, or a damage boost or Aura Enhancements to increase hate to us by all evil-aligned mobs inside our Aura radius... or the offensive aura enhancements I have proffered in the past (DOT effect by the Aura to evil-aligned mobs... help pull and maintain Aggro through our mere presence.)


Picture it this way: The Paladin, with his Righteous Aura leads into a room full of Evil Orcs... the Paladin's Aura does small (1d8 + Enhancement) damage to every Evil-Algined creature in it's radius. The Paladin now INSTANTLY has Aggro of *ALL* mobs in that room, as soon as the Damage Effect clicks off, as he is now leading damager to all of them, and the only one in sight. Then the Paladin goes Defensive mode, turtling up, and actually "tanking"... letting the Fighters/Barbs/Rogues/Rangers/etc wade in and pick the mobs off the Pally as they choose.... That is being a DEFENSIVE MELEE CLASS... a way to get and pull and maintain primary Aggro on a LARGE group... and only lose that aggro as the other party members start doing more damage to that mob.

[Eladrin]

Zeal
Pal 4
Benefit: Grants the caster a 10% sacred bonus to attack speed.

There is no armor class bonus associated with this spell at this time. This attack speed increase stacks with all currently existing attack speed bonuses.

[Laith]

Zeal
Pal 4
Benefit: Grants the caster a 10% sacred bonus to attack speed.

There is no armor class bonus associated with this spell at this time. This attack speed increase stacks with all currently existing attack speed bonuses.

so no longer a level2 spell?

i'm happy to see you figured out that it's high level pallys (not low) that need the help, but i hope the duration has increased to cover the extra SP.

[Eladrin]

so no longer a level2 spell?

i'm happy to see you figured out that it's high level pallys (not low) that need the help, but i hope the duration has increased to cover the extra SP.

The duration is indeed longer than it was before.

[Laith]

The duration is indeed longer than it was before.

hooray! keeping it close to the vest i see?

[Borror0]

Zeal
Pal 4
Benefit: Grants the caster a 10% sacred bonus to attack speed.

There is no armor class bonus associated with this spell at this time. This attack speed increase stacks with all currently existing attack speed bonuses.

Wow, and I thought Ram's Might had a facelift from PnP...

[jkm]

good call, now can you push ram's might up to a level 4 spell too? i don't think these ranger6/x builds would be near as attractive if they didn't have such a potent spell available at level 4...

[maddmatt70]

good call, now can you push ram's might up to a level 4 spell too? i don't think these ranger6/x builds would be near as attractive if they didn't have such a potent spell available at level 4...

Sigh, Ram's might adds +2 strength and an additional damage point per 4 levels. My level 12 fighter/4 ranger gets +2 to strength and an additional point of damage. I personally don't feel that +1 to hit and +2 to damage is that extreme for four levels of a class especially since we are talking about a shorter duration dispelable spell.

[maddmatt70]

so no longer a level2 spell?

i'm happy to see you figured out that it's high level pallys (not low) that need the help, but i hope the duration has increased to cover the extra SP.

Well this is a decision I disagree with. I don't like the way barbarians are constructed in game because basically you should always take at least 14 levels of barbarian for the crit rage enhancements. It really makes that class less appealing and fun to me because you can't multi class really with barbarians. If they make paladins the same way it makes it less fun as all paladin builds are either 14 levels of paladin or have 2 splash levels of paladin. These spell and enhancements for the barbarian and the paladin don't really conform to anything in pen and paper by the way.

[Borror0]

Well this is a decision I disagree with. I don't like the way barbarians are constructed in game because basically you should always take at least 14 levels of barbarian for the crit rage enhancements. It really makes that class less appealing and fun to me because you can't multi class really with barbarians. If they make paladins the same way it makes it less fun as all paladin builds are either 14 levels of paladin or have 2 splash levels of paladin.

Nicely said.

I don't think I need to convince anyone I want to improve level 12+ paladins, but this is not the way.

These spell and enhancements for the barbarian and the paladin don't really conform to anything in pen and paper by the way.

... and it's something that bugs me.

[Laith]

Well this is a decision I disagree with. I don't like the way barbarians are constructed in game because basically you should always take at least 14 levels of barbarian for the crit rage enhancements. It really makes that class less appealing and fun to me because you can't multi class really with barbarians. If they make paladins the same way it makes it less fun as all paladin builds are either 14 levels of paladin or have 2 splash levels of paladin. These spell and enhancements for the barbarian and the paladin don't really conform to anything in pen and paper by the way.

so you want high level abilities to be good, but not TOO good. Levels are tiers that grant abilities. These tiers will never be balanced completely, and certain ones will always stand out. The idea is to make all of them stand out... which zeal at pally14 helps to do.

Crit Rage and Zeal still give you 6 levels to play around with. Can't wait to see what abilities are unveiled for pure classed level20s. For every reason given at low levels to multiclass, there should be a high level tradeoff to encourage pure classing IMO.

Also, while 10% attack speed might be good it's far from tempestI or crit rage: it costs mana, can be dispelled, and is still probably going to be short term (i'm guessing divine favor length).

[jkm]

Sigh, Ram's might adds +2 strength and an additional damage point per 4 levels. My level 12 fighter/4 ranger gets +2 to strength and an additional point of damage. I personally don't feel that +1 to hit and +2 to damage is that extreme for four levels of a class especially since we are talking about a shorter duration dispelable spell.

how about this then, it shouldn't be any more powerful than divine favor for pallies/clerics -> i.e. +1 to hit/+1 damage - lasting for 1 minute. the fact that it lasts for 3 more minutes and gives an extra point of damage makes it much more desireable correct? how about if they nerf the duration to 1 minute for all. then it would be on par with the other buffs.

[maddmatt70]

so you want high level abilities to be good, but not TOO good. Levels are tiers that grant abilities. These tiers will never be balanced completely, and certain ones will always stand out.

Crit Rage and Zeal still give you 6 levels to play around with. Can't wait to see what abilities are unveiled for pure classed level20s. For every reason given at low levels to multiclass, there should be a high level tradeoff to encourage pure classing IMO.

Also, while 10% attack speed might be good it's far from tempestI or crit rage: it costs mana, can be dispelled, and is still probably going to be short term (i'm guessing divine favor length).

I would have made the Zeal Spell like the monk wind stance is going to be i.e. the more levels of a class you have the higher the % of speed benefit. For example every 4 levels of paladin this spell grants you an additional 2.5% benefit or something of that nature. I agree the speed bonus is a little less beneficial then the speed bonus rangers get, but knowing first hand what I know of tempest there is no way I would make a paladin without zeal. In pen and paper I can make a barbarian or paladin of any level and multi-class it with another class and not feel gimped about it. In ddo not the case really.

By the way I would actually have preferred the devs give paladins a different damage multiplier then speed. I have never thought of paladins as a particularly fast race, but rather full plate wearers who can lay down the hammer on evil.

[maddmatt70]

how about this then, it shouldn't be any more powerful than divine favor for pallies/clerics -> i.e. +1 to hit/+1 damage - lasting for 1 minute. the fact that it lasts for 3 more minutes and gives an extra point of damage makes it much more desireable correct? how about if they nerf the duration to 1 minute for all. then it would be on par with the other buffs.

I don't feel all classes should get all the same abilities. This is in part the problem I have with zeal - ddo is moving towards giving every class some sort of speed bonus which is boring in my opinion.

[Laith]

I would have made the Zeal Spell like the monk wind stance is going to be i.e. the more levels of a class you have the higher the % of speed benefit. For example every 4 levels of paladin this spell grants you an additional 2.5% benefit or something of that nature. I agree the speed bonus is a little less beneficial then the speed bonus rangers get, but knowing first hand what I know of tempest there is no way I would make a paladin without zeal. In pen and paper I can make a barbarian or paladin of any level and multiple class it with another class and not feel gimped about it. In ddo not the case really

yes, that i like more than it taking a high level spellslot.

this time, i'm willing to give you a "nicely said"

[Borror0]

yes, that i like more than it taking a high level spellslot.

this time, i'm willing to give you a "nicely said"

The other way of doing it is givign paladins a bunch of Nice level 2 spells. You get your first level 2 spell at level 8. Your second one at level 10 and your third at level 16. It just takes three ppowerfu level 2 spells to make it worthwhile. But yes, idealy you make those spells also scale with level and last longer with levels too.