100+ AC TWF Intimidate Build soon to come

[Riot]

Problem is an intimitank that doesnt add anything to the fight other then getting aggro, isnt helping nearly as much as some ppl think. Much rather go in there with some high AC DPS tanks and just move through.

Given a premier group... sure... For that matter lets roll in there with some Finger Sorcs and show yer DPS melee what Kill count stands for.

But given a realistic group, 1 Intimitank ramps up party efficiency more than a build such as this. And you don't need more than 1 to do it. Higher mana efficiency, which directly results in more offensive capability through centrilization of targets, increased to hit and damage capability of allies, and time efficiency.

To mock an intimitank by saying they don't add anything other than getting agro is well.... naive.

[nbhs275]

Given a premier group... sure... For that matter lets roll in there with some Finger Sorcs and show yer DPS melee what Kill count stands for.

But given a realistic group, 1 Intimitank ramps up party efficiency more than a build such as this. And you don't need more than 1 to do it. Higher mana efficiency, which directly results in more offensive capability through centrilization of targets, increased to hit and damage capability of allies, and time efficiency.

To mock an intimitank by saying they don't add anything other than getting agro is well.... naive.

Im saying one that only can intimidate and stand thier. Im all for intimitanks that can hold the aggro and add to the DPS.

[maddmatt70]

Given a premier group... sure... For that matter lets roll in there with some Finger Sorcs and show yer DPS melee what Kill count stands for.

But given a realistic group, 1 Intimitank ramps up party efficiency more than a build such as this. And you don't need more than 1 to do it. Higher mana efficiency, which directly results in more offensive capability through centrilization of targets, increased to hit and damage capability of allies, and time efficiency.

To mock an intimitank by saying they don't add anything other than getting agro is well.... naive.

The age old argument about intimidate that you and others make just isn't accurate. Intimidate doesn't truly add to dps like you maintain. Intimidate is really a situational defensive tactic which is why I favor builds like the OP has that actually have some offensive punch. Heck I would favor a barbarian with 0 ac who uses intimidate in the manner you proscribe of centralizing targets because the barbarian would also presumable have some offense. Irregardless quality competent players don't need an intimidate tank slowing them down as they can get the kills fast and the intimidate tank can't pull his/her weight from an offensive standpoint.

[Lorichie]

I think a lot of the conversation of exactly how useful an intimitank is, is centered around current guild run structure. Meaning guild runs, or folks that run with each other a lot, who dont normally have an intimtank, are giving their opinion against those who have run an intimitank from day 1, or close to 1, against those who just flat out dont believe that they are viable, or not as viable as a full DPS'er.

There is another side to this, one that i think we forget at times and is just as viable to a specific demographic on these forums, and thats the PUG group. The average PUG doesnt run together a lot, doesnt know each others strengths and weaknesses, cant carry a weaker character if needed etc. and so on.

The average Pug, or newer guild, what have you, will benefit greatly from even a mediocre played intimitank, so to say they arent viable at all is just not seeing the entire scope before us.

Leveling up my newest intimitank, and a cleric just before that, i can tell you there is a remarkable difference in the general "feel" of the group between the two instances. My intent is not to mince words amongst anyone, im really not telling anyone how to feel and what to believe, but the average pug group notices an intimitank, and notices the difference between having one and not.

RIch

[maddmatt70]

I think a lot of the conversation of exactly how useful an intimitank is, is centered around current guild run structure. Meaning guild runs, or folks that run with each other a lot, who dont normally have an intimtank, are giving their opinion against those who have run an intimitank from day 1, or close to 1, against those who just flat out dont believe that they are viable, or not as viable as a full DPS'er.

There is another side to this, one that i think we forget at times and is just as viable to a specific demographic on these forums, and thats the PUG group. The average PUG doesnt run together a lot, doesnt know each others strengths and weaknesses, cant carry a weaker character if needed etc. and so on.

The average Pug, or newer guild, what have you, will benefit greatly from even a mediocre played intimitank, so to say they arent viable at all is just not seeing the entire scope before us.



RIch

I disagree with this statement. So a really good dpser wouldn't benefit a pug - I would argue that they benefit a pug far more then the defensive intimitank.

[Lorichie]

I disagree with this statement. So a really good dpser wouldn't benefit a pug - I would argue that they benefit a pug far more then the defensive intimitank.

Nope, didnt say that they wouldnt, saying that the average pug would be benefited by an intimitank. Im not taking anyones side or mincing words remember, im just giving a different point of view not been given yet.

RIch

[Forceonature]

The age old argument about intimidate that you and others make just isn't accurate. Intimidate doesn't truly add to dps like you maintain.

Many rogues would beg to differ.

[maddmatt70]

Many rogues would beg to differ.

I argue that some of the defensive intimitank posted do 40%-50% of the damage of a top dpser. So you are saying that if a defensive intimitank happens to run with a rogue on a quest (this doesn't happen a tremendous amount of time) that rogue and intimitank will make up for the 50% loss of the intimitank's dps between them because of the intimitank's intimidating. I would argue that maybe an intimidate adds 10% dps to a rogue because the rogue is going to still get sneak attacks through other means whether flanking or diplomacy or caster/cleric cc what have you..

[Riot]

You can argue... it's your right... but you'd be very wrong.

Rogues don't get sneak attacks when they draw agro. And they WILL draw agro from your DPSer. not to mention from the other 5 mobs running around that you are not beating on.

Heck, rogues have a hard time standing when they draw agro.
Sticking and moving is LESS DPS than standing pat and swinging for the fences.

DPS benefits of an intimitank:
----------------------------
- All allies get +2 to hit. From flanking.
- All allies recieve NO NEGATIVE modifiers to hit since they can stand firm.
- Rogues Damage PER HIT is + 8d6 (double it for dual weilders)
- Defensive Casters are aforded the ability to use OFFENSIVE Spells due to the conservation of healing resources.
- Offensive Casters are able to employ AOE spells with greater accuracy which have a higher Damage output per volume than single target spells.


If I told you I could give your party a stackable Buff that grants a +6 to hit, increases at least one persons Damage by 8d6 per hit, allows defensive casters to spend 50% of their SP on offense, AND increase the efficiency of your groups AoE spells by upwards of 75%. PLUS saves you CSW potions ta boot!!!

You'd argue that you needed a single DPSer?

Do you like bard buffs at all? or would rather have a raging barbarian instead of a bard?

Argue away man..... please, I haven't had my laugh for the month.

Do the math... Take 5 of your DPSers.. and take 5 rogues... All duel weilders.
Which one has a higher survivability and more DPS?

Now add 1 more DPSer to the group, and add 1 Intimitank to the rogues... Now see what happens.

[EKKM]

I disagree with this statement. So a really good dpser wouldn't benefit a pug - I would argue that they benefit a pug far more then the defensive intimitank.

The statement you qoted didn't say "you don't need a DPS build if you have an intimitank" like you insinuated, it said "Having an initimitank in PUG is better than not having one."

As someone who PUGs exclusively, albiet at lower - mod levels, I can say that good DPSers are a dime a dozen. Chances are in a pug you already have two melee characters that may or may may not have AC/HP. Adding the intimitank to the mix makes everything more efficient than adding one more DPS build.

And yes, I know that having a high AC, DPS, intimidate build is better than just a defensive intimitank but there are not very many in the PUGs I run in.

[Forceonature]

Couldn't have set it better Riot. I started to type a reply but had to take off. Anyway, I wanted to elaborate on what you said.

- Offensive Casters are able to employ AOE spells with greater accuracy which have a higher Damage output per volume than single target spells.

Nothing quite as fun as watching a mob run through a firewall or bladebarrier to the caster, grabbing their aggro, and bringing them right back into it.

[maddmatt70]

You can argue... it's your right... but you'd be very wrong.

Rogues don't get sneak attacks when they draw agro. And they WILL draw agro from your DPSer. not to mention from the other 5 mobs running around that you are not beating on.

Heck, rogues have a hard time standing when they draw agro.
Sticking and moving is LESS DPS than standing pat and swinging for the fences.

DPS benefits of an intimitank:
----------------------------
- All allies get +2 to hit. From flanking.
- All allies recieve NO NEGATIVE modifiers to hit since they can stand firm.
- Rogues Damage PER HIT is + 8d6 (double it for dual weilders)
- Defensive Casters are aforded the ability to use OFFENSIVE Spells due to the conservation of healing resources.
- Offensive Casters are able to employ AOE spells with greater accuracy which have a higher Damage output per volume than single target spells.


If I told you I could give your party a stackable Buff that grants a +6 to hit, increases at least one persons Damage by 8d6 per hit, allows defensive casters to spend 50% of their SP on offense, AND increase the efficiency of your groups AoE spells by upwards of 75%. PLUS saves you CSW potions ta boot!!!

You'd argue that you needed a single DPSer?

Do you like bard buffs at all? or would rather have a raging barbarian instead of a bard?

Argue away man..... please, I haven't had my laugh for the month.

Do the math... Take 5 of your DPSers.. and take 5 rogues... All duel weilders.
Which one has a higher survivability and more DPS?

Now add 1 more DPSer to the group, and add 1 Intimitank to the rogues... Now see what happens.

We can argue this any way you want to. We all run regularly with whole partys of rogue - Not. Rogues will get sneak from other sources refutes any argument you have regarding rogues. Just 3 manned the devils assault the other day with a rogue, ranger with monk splash, and my battle bard rabiez. The ranger with monk splash had a radiance weapon and he repeatedly whacked on the mobs and gave the rogue sneak damage with the blinding effect. We just walked through the quest by the way and the rogue had a ridiculous amount of kills.

People don't miss much so flanking bah and experienced players are skilled enough to actually move to a flank besides. You actually stand firm - fight in doorways what does it take 2 hours to get through a quest. The AOE is the worst argument I have ever heard - I mean give casters a little credit what they can't target a mob group and kill it. What the heck casters do you run around with anyway. Defensive casters can employ offensive spells anytime they want to its just the mob might be dead because of all the frigging DPS in the dps group. A dead monster can't fight back so there is your survivability right there. Finally, your whole presence in this thread has to do with the OP's build and builds like his having at the very least an "offensive mode" which your build doesn't have. Your defense is about the same as the OPs, but yet his offense is far superior maybe the devs will throw you a bone soon, but hey stop with the bs..

[maddmatt70]

The statement you qoted didn't say "you don't need a DPS build if you have an intimitank" like you insinuated, it said "Having an initimitank in PUG is better than not having one."

As someone who PUGs exclusively, albiet at lower - mod levels, I can say that good DPSers are a dime a dozen. Chances are in a pug you already have two melee characters that may or may may not have AC/HP. Adding the intimitank to the mix makes everything more efficient than adding one more DPS build.

And yes, I know that having a high AC, DPS, intimidate build is better than just a defensive intimitank but there are not very many in the PUGs I run in.

I just pugged the other day and we had a defensive tank (intimidate) and a newer player (ranger/rogue as the only two real melee in the group in a level 6 and gwylan's stand elite run. Our arcane died so I left him dead and those two players had trouble killing a couple of priests in there because the priests self healed - what I wouldn't have give for one good dpser at that moment. Good dps makes zerging possible whether it is through melee dps, arcane dps, etc.. Last I checked a measure of success in ddo is completing quests quickly so you can loot more chests and get more xp faster..

[EKKM]

I just pugged the other day and we had a defensive tank (intimidate) and a newer player (ranger/rogue as the only two real melee in the group in a level 6 and gwylan's stand elite run. Our arcane died so I left him dead and those two players had trouble killing a couple of priests in there because the priests self healed - what I wouldn't have give for one good dpser at that moment. Good dps makes zerging possible whether it is through melee dps, arcane dps, etc.. Last I checked a measure of success in ddo is completing quests quickly so you can loot more chests and get more xp faster..

I dont disagree that a group needs melee DPS to be efficient. Your group needed melee DPS, all groups do for the most part. I also agree 100% that a group requires melee DPS before it needs, or can optimally use, an intimitank. However, I also believe that if you already have good melee DPS, you should take an intimitank before more melee DPS.

Riot's analogy to a bard is fairly apt.

[Forceonature]

The AOE is the worst argument I have ever heard - I mean give casters a little credit what they can't target a mob group and kill it. What the heck casters do you run around with anyway.

Our arcane died so I left him dead...

Apparently you run with the same casters as we do.

If you're speed zerging through a quest, then intimidate isn't going to help you, just like a solid fog, web, or any other form of crowd control wouldn't help you.

[Riot]

We can argue this any way you want to. We all run regularly with whole partys of rogue - Not.

And this automatically means we all run with parties of DPSers??? Not.

Rogues will get sneak from other sources refutes any argument you have regarding rogues.

No doubt, but it's not 100% of the time as it can be with an Intimitank. I have a rogue, I know exactly how often I get sneak attacks With and without an Intimitank in the group. And it's mroe than doubled With.

Just 3 manned the devils assault the other day with a rogue, ranger with monk splash, and my battle bard rabiez.

It took 3 people? wow... I'll take the rogue. That's it. That's not what I call impressive by any stretch.

You actually stand firm - fight in doorways what does it take 2 hours to get through a quest.

Really? Funny how I've been on some of the fastest raid compeltions in game over the years. OOOps how did that happen?

The AOE is the worst argument I have ever heard - I mean give casters a little credit what they can't target a mob group and kill it. What the heck casters do you run around with anyway.

Casters who are smart enough to use 1 spell instead of 3 to hit all the targets. Casters who think Ball lightning is better used on 5 mobs instead of 2. it's obvious your not an INT class.

Defensive casters can employ offensive spells anytime they want to its just the mob might be dead because of all the frigging DPS in the dps group. A dead monster can't fight back so there is your survivability right there.

HAHAHAHAHA. There it is!!! the old "dead mobs can't fight back" arguement. predicatable and classic. ran out of points did ya?
Might of well as said "nuh uh!"

Finally, your whole presence in this thread has to do with the OP's build and builds like his having at the very least an "offensive mode" which your build doesn't have. Your defense is about the same as the OPs, but yet his offense is far superior maybe the devs will throw you a bone soon, but hey stop with the bs..

You obvisouly know very little about my offensive and defensive capabilities.
And it's showing. You're holding onto your DPS and jumping up and down like I've denouced your religion. Have you read enough text to realize that I've not once said I out DPS this build? or is reading that difficult?

You don't like my rogue analogy? Why not? because rogues can group up like melee DPS? Or did you realize that HEY, they'll actually do mroe damage that your DPS group with an Intimitank?

Tell you what, Take 5 of any build in which no 2 are alike... And add your build, Then add an Intimitank and see which one impacts the groups efficiency more.... Please, just try to find one scenario.... And for gods sake, pic a quest that's actually dificult.

[Mhykke]

, increases at least one persons Damage by 8d6 per hit,

And that's not even considering people w/ rogue splashes, or any other melees wearing something like the devil goggles, getting sneak attacks even if not a rogue.

People don't miss much so flanking bah and experienced players are skilled enough to actually move to a flank besides. You actually stand firm - fight in doorways what does it take 2 hours to get through a quest. The AOE is the worst argument I have ever heard - I mean give casters a little credit what they can't target a mob group and kill it. What the heck casters do you run around with anyway. Defensive casters can employ offensive spells anytime they want to its just the mob might be dead because of all the frigging DPS in the dps group. A dead monster can't fight back so there is your survivability right there. Finally, your whole presence in this thread has to do with the OP's build and builds like his having at the very least an "offensive mode" which your build doesn't have. Your defense is about the same as the OPs, but yet his offense is far superior maybe the devs will throw you a bone soon, but hey stop with the bs..

I have a DPS twf'er, a DPS THF'er, and an intimidate tank.....I think you make some points here and there, but you're drastically undercutting yourself by trying to portray intimidate tanks as not only useless, but drags on parties. That's far, far from the truth in today's game.

[nbhs275]

And that's not even considering people w/ rogue splashes, or any other melees wearing something like the devil goggles, getting sneak attacks even if not a rogue.






I have a DPS twf'er, a DPS THF'er, and an intimidate tank.....I think you make some points here and there, but you're drastically undercutting yourself by trying to portray intimidate tanks as not only useless, but drags on parties. That's far, far from the truth in today's game.

I think we are really getting away from the point with this "intimitanks are/arent good" junk.

The real point is that a 65 AC is for all situations just as good as 100. Thats why im curios, why would a person purposefully gimp the **** out of their character for fluff. Or for that matter say its the build getting to 100 when really it takes a very specific group of people supporting the build to do it.

[maddmatt70]

I have a DPS twf'er, a DPS THF'er, and an intimidate tank.....I think you make some points here and there, but you're drastically undercutting yourself by trying to portray intimidate tanks as not only useless, but drags on parties. That's far, far from the truth in today's game.

In pnp the intimidate skill is for flavor. Intimidate is not really worth justifying the standard action to use it in combat. DDO has give it a larger role this is in large part because of the mmo influence. In today's game intimidate is a tactical skill to be used in situations like VOD to manage the orthons what have you, but making a build which in order to be successful must use intimidate in every room of every dungeon and really whenever the cooldown timer is up is not a successful build. Intimidate is like trip, stunning blow, etc... Shroud is a golden example where you should break out your two hander, turn on pa, and hopefully raise a ruckus. A friend of mine dislikes inviting sword and board paladins to shrouds because they often refuse to break out the off hand holy sword and help the party get the quest done quicker and he is right in my opinion..

[Mhykke]

In pnp the intimidate skill is for flavor and intimidate is not really worth justifying the standard action to use it in combat. DDO has give it a larger role this is in large part because of the mmo influence. In today's game intimidate is a tactical skill to be used in situations like VOD to manage the orthons what have you, but making a build which in order to be successful must use intimidate in every room of every dungeon and really whenever the cooldown timer is up is not a successful build. Intimidate is like trip, stunning blow, etc... Shroud is a golden example where you should break out your two hander, turn on pa, and hopefully raise a ruckus. A friend of mine dislikes inviting sword and board paladins to shrouds because they often refuse to break out the off hand holy sword and help the party get the quest done quicker and he is right in my opinion..

Well, that's not really an argument against buillds, that's an argument against people/skill levels.

The good player knows when to turtle up, and when to break out the TH'er.