Caster's role vs. Pit Fiend in Shroud?

[Lewcipher]

Displacement is close to useless. All raid bosses have True Seeing or equivalent.

Yep, but it works on the trash mobs in part 4. Other than that, useless.

[TK.Halcyon]

Yep, but it works on the trash mobs in part 4. Other than that, useless.

Considering trash mobs include the devils who upon death drop a blade barrier wannabe and the spam healing the clerics will be doing, displacement is more or less a waste of sp. Using the sp that would have been spent to displace 12 characters on things like cc (heightened webs for trash or polar ray / ball-chain litnin would be better)

[Cold_Stele]

Secondarily, you debuff Arraetrikos with Enfeeblement or Exhaustion. Crushing Despair can also work.

Will casting from scrolls cut it here or do I need to think about changing around spells?

And for the record I take it we're talking -

Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Exhaustion?

what about

Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue?

Lastly, what about Enervation scrolls?

Many thx

[NiBB]

Enervation scrolls only work well against mobs that have no SR, and definitely not bosses or raid bosses, since they are immune to the affect of level drain anyways.

I find that on my caster, if I am not an all damage build, that if I spam "protection fire" whenever I see someone take a significant chunk of damage, it helps protect them from the inevitable followup attack that kills them instantly.

Doing this provides the clerics more time leniency so that they can actually throw the heals out there in time to save people. It's really hard to do (at times, depending on the team), unless you have Quicken Spell.

Hope this helps.

[Shagn]

Will casting from scrolls cut it here or do I need to think about changing around spells?

And for the record I take it we're talking -

Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Exhaustion?

what about

Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue?

Lastly, what about Enervation scrolls?

Many thx

Ray of Exhaustion, Waves of Exhaustion and Waves of Fatigue do not stack with each other.

You can test this in PvP.

Ray of Enfeeblement+Waves of Exhaustion+Symbol of Weakness are the most strength damage you can do to red named bosses. If the symbol happens to disappear with its effects still applied to the boss, then it remains on him after the symbol is gone.

You can also his Suul with Crushing Despair, but he pretty much has to roll a 1 after you get through his SR.

Chill Touch also does strength damage (that stack with the others), but I've yet to see it work against red named.

Scrolls of the above work, but your SR enhancements won't apply. The symbol has a save, so you want it for a spell if possible.

[Merkinsal]

Ray of Exhaustion, Waves of Exhaustion and Waves of Fatigue do not stack with each other.

You can test this in PvP.

Ray of Enfeeblement+Waves of Fatigue+Symbol of Weakness are the most strength damage you can do to red named bosses. If the symbol happens to disappear with its effects still applied to the boss, then it remains on him after the symbol is gone.

You can also his Suul with Crushing Despair, but he pretty much has to roll a 1 after you get through his SR.

Chill Touch also does strength damage (that stack with the others), but I've yet to see it work against red named.

Scrolls of the above work, but your SR enhancements won't apply. The symbol has a save, so you want it for a spell if possible.

I think you mean you want to stack Ray of Enfeeblement with Waves of Exhaustion. I believe Waves of Exhaustion with -6 to Dex and Str overwrites Fatigue with a -2 to Dex and Str. Same effect with waves of negative energy.

Waves of Exhaustion can land on scrolls easily enough without the +3 from three levels of Spell Pen enhancements, all other spell pen maxed, but casting time is slow as with all scrolls. A roll of 13 is needed in the Shroud on normal. I still find too much use for Dancing Ball to replace that spell with Waves of Exhaustion but many speced for end game are doing just that. Strangely enough, I rarely see other casters debuffing in the shroud or any other time for that matter.

[Shagn]

I think you mean you want to stack Ray of Enfeeblement with Waves of Exhaustion.

Oops, I fixed my post. I still get them mixed up since I recently found a lot of them don't overlap. The lvl7 debuff spell is the one you want. A scroll would have the same debuff effect, but it would be less effective on a group of mobs with SR. For bosses like Arraitrekos or Suul, you would have a high SR failure rate by using scrolls. For a sorc, it would be tough to decide and some people might just go with scroll usage instead. For a wizard you can just switch out as needed. In most of the end game raids, a caster is usually better off mitigating damage to the party with debuffs (fogs, str damage, symbols), and buffs like displacement, haste, and stoneskin rather than nuking. Of course the Suul and Arraitrekos both have true seeing and freedom of movement which negates blur/displace.

One last thing, Suul has Mantle of Invulnerability, which cannot be dispelled contrary to what the developers say. Only Waves of Exhaustion and Symbol of Weakness can be applied to her unless you have the DQ staff.

[Naso24]

Agree with what others say about spells. I have hit the pit fiend with multiple debuffs. Even though they show up, it looks like some are being overwritten so I will have to test again in a tavern.

In between, I use a light repeater (+4 holy burst of PG with silver bolts). If you don't have one, use a bow or crossbow. Or buy a force missile wand. The damage will add up.

[Desteria]

Well now a days that i purty much juts do speed runs part 4 is buf fas the fuight the trash then put on the glacial set form voD and dump my SP are polar rays, if it looks liek he will die befor i run out of SP toss a few CoC in there as well
Basiacly the same for part 5 but just use polar rays they maby pond a pot or use staf fMM's or FM wands or something

[maddmatt70]

Oops, I fixed my post. I still get them mixed up since I recently found a lot of them don't overlap. The lvl7 debuff spell is the one you want. A scroll would have the same debuff effect, but it would be less effective on a group of mobs with SR. For bosses like Arraitrekos or Suul, you would have a high SR failure rate by using scrolls. For a sorc, it would be tough to decide and some people might just go with scroll usage instead. For a wizard you can just switch out as needed. In most of the end game raids, a caster is usually better off mitigating damage to the party with debuffs (fogs, str damage, symbols), and buffs like displacement, haste, and stoneskin rather than nuking. Of course the Suul and Arraitrekos both have true seeing and freedom of movement which negates blur/displace.

One last thing, Suul has Mantle of Invulnerability, which cannot be dispelled contrary to what the developers say. Only Waves of Exhaustion and Symbol of Weakness can be applied to her unless you have the DQ staff.

On your wizard do you still do debuffs on the pit fiend Shagn because if so I am surprised would have figured you now just shoot up the pit fiend with polar rays with a little mana reserved if you have to kill some gnolls in between the 1st and second round. I can't remember the last time I have been stoneskined or displacement in part 4 or part 5 must have been the first month or two the shroud came out - you probably are referring to VOD with that statement..

[Mindspat]

I've been on a few shroud runs now with my fighter and when the time comes to battle the Pit fiend, some melee, some range and clerics obviously heal. What are the caster's doing at this point? Are they casting offensive spells? Debuffs? What spells work well on the Fiend if any. I realize some may be healing Warforged but what else? I would like to know as eventually I will be running my sorceror in the shroud and want to make sure I am a valuable asset to the raid. If there are any high level sorcerer/wizards with input on what they do or have seen please let me know. Thanks!

I play a lvl 16 sorcerer and what do is:

Acid Cloud, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue, Ray of Exhaustion, Strength Sapping.

Always keep ColdShield (fire shield variant) active so potenial damage from the Metor Swarm (spell name?) is halved. I equip my special Pit Fiend weapons, activate my Divine Power and beat the living **** out of that thing while avoiding the blades. A prayer should also give a +1/-1 buf/debuff (=+2) that should benefit the attackers; destruction weapon gives -4 AC.

I also try to eat a tasty ham immediately after getting my ensemble of debuffs applied before rushing in.

Mind you, this tactic isn't good for a large majority of Sorcerers and I wouldn't advise going melee unless you're well equiped for it.

[Mindspat]

Ray of Exhaustion, Waves of Exhaustion and Waves of Fatigue do not stack with each other.

You can test this in PvP.

Are you emplying that someone is actually playing the Pit Fiend!?!?

It's easy to test in PVE and it's quite noticible that the effects stack. The question is: Do the -stat- debuffs stack on Raid bosses?

Rays and Waves stack on mobs as well does strength sapping. Haven't you seen mobs do The Running Man?

PVE is not PVP. For that matter, DDO doesn't even have PVP. pfh

[MrCow]

The question is: Do the -stat- debuffs stack on Raid bosses?

Yes, Exhaustion (or fatigue), Ray of Enfeeblement, Strength Sapping, and Symbol of Weakness all lower the damage capabilities of raid bosses and stack (at least, that is what Queen Lailat exhibits when her average physical damage on normal goes from 28 per hit to 13 per hit on normal).

[Shagn]

Are you emplying that someone is actually playing the Pit Fiend!?!?

It's easy to test in PVE and it's quite noticible that the effects stack. The question is: Do the -stat- debuffs stack on Raid bosses?

Rays and Waves stack on mobs as well does strength sapping. Haven't you seen mobs do The Running Man?

PVE is not PVP. For that matter, DDO doesn't even have PVP. pfh

If the debuffs do not stack against other players, I am rather doubting they stack in PvE. We have no other way to test them. Using our PvP environment is how I test spells. One other way to check if they stack is to play with the living spells in the subterrain. Once you hit them with ray of enfeeblement, exhaustion, and symbol of weakness they are impotent. The other (non-stacking) debuffs show up on other players' and mobs' inspection sheets, even though (in PvP) they don't really stack. Anyhow, it saved me a lot of debuff spell slots using this knowledge.

On your wizard do you still do debuffs on the pit fiend Shagn because if so I am surprised would have figured you now just shoot up the pit fiend with polar rays with a little mana reserved if you have to kill some gnolls in between the 1st and second round. I can't remember the last time I have been stoneskined or displacement in part 4 or part 5 must have been the first month or two the shroud came out - you probably are referring to VOD with that statement..

My wizard is not built for damage, but I do some nuking if I have lots of reserve mana. I will throw the two debuffs and a symbol of weakening, then start nuking or help reconstruct any WF melee if their health gets low. In part4/5 of Shroud, I will watch the pit fiend's health and if a little extra dps will make the difference between 1 round or two, then I will really lay into him. I usually only refresh fire prot and stoneskin between rounds, or especially during the fight on a Shroud elite run (makes a big difference on healing). If I can save a melee from dying from blast fireball (or two or three in a row), I will effectively be contributing more dps through that melee surviving than a single polar ray. I leave most nuking to the sorcs since they have a lot more spell points.

My comments were more in the general sense of what a caster *can* do to be helpful against the pit fiend. I generally go through 1-2 stoneskin wands in VoD, and 50-70 reconstruct scrolls if the Suul tank is a WF barb.

One thing I have not tried watching is if a fog (acid or solid) actually causes Suul or the pit fiend a miss chance. It does not seem to slow them down either, IMO. In PvP, if the person attacking you has Freedom of Movement, there is no miss chance due to the fog.

[jmonty]

ur role is to stay out of the nearby mana pools so the clerics can refill and heal.

[Angelus_dead]

If the debuffs do not stack against other players, I am rather doubting they stack in PvE. We have no other way to test them.

No. You find a low-level monster and block with a nice tower shield while watching the damage he does with each hit. For example, Landslide in Sunken Sewer does 20-40 damage. Then cast some debuffs on him and try again, watching if his high and low damage numbers are the same or different.

[Shagn]

No. You find a low-level monster and block with a nice tower shield while watching the damage he does with each hit. For example, Landslide in Sunken Sewer does 20-40 damage. Then cast some debuffs on him and try again, watching if his high and low damage numbers are the same or different.

What did your results show?

[Strakeln]

Damage spells do not work well on Arraetrikos. He's completely immune to the obvious things like Wall of Fire, and has around 30 resist to cold and acid. His fort and reflex saves are good, so disintegrate and lightning bolt won't do much. Plus on Hard or Elite he gets Evasion.

In my experience, magic or force missile is the best damage-to-mana ratio, especially if you leave the metamagics off. He has no resistance, no shield spell, they never miss, and if you have the damage amplified properly, can do a significant amount of it.

After ensuring I have enough mana for the things A_D mentioned, I spam MM, tuning my metamagic level to the DPS of the group (if it looks like the group will be there 1 round, max and empower on... if it's 2-3 rounds, maximize only... if it's four rounds, no meta at all).

I haven't made an attempt at the math, but I'm pretty sure this is the most effective use of damaging mana on Harry (in terms of damage per point of mana spent) and probably slightly behind other methods in terms of DPS (I think spamming CoC/Disint might put out higher DPS, but MMs will do significantly more cumulative damage).

Not many people have the force damage amplification, so individual mileage may vary. I ran the Shroud with my caster last night and tried to count up the damage I did, I think it was around 7000 - 8000HP of damage total. So it does add up quite a bit.

[frugal_gourmet]

I find myself more and more frequently (in groups with warforged) taking on a 4th healer role for parts of the fight. And it works wonders. I have a few of the force enhancements. When the fiend gets low enough, I sink my spells into him.

I keep a few buffs on guys like fire-prot too, whenever I get a chance.

[frugal_gourmet]

In my experience, magic or force missile is the best damage-to-mana ratio, especially if you leave the metamagics off. He has no resistance, no shield spell, they never miss, and if you have the damage amplified properly, can do a significant amount of it.

After ensuring I have enough mana for the things A_D mentioned, I spam MM, tuning my metamagic level to the DPS of the group (if it looks like the group will be there 1 round, max and empower on... if it's 2-3 rounds, maximize only... if it's four rounds, no meta at all).

I haven't made an attempt at the math, but I'm pretty sure this is the most effective use of damaging mana on Harry (in terms of damage per point of mana spent) and probably slightly behind other methods in terms of DPS (I think spamming CoC/Disint might put out higher DPS, but MMs will do significantly more cumulative damage).

Not many people have the force damage amplification, so individual mileage may vary. I ran the Shroud with my caster last night and tried to count up the damage I did, I think it was around 7000 - 8000HP of damage total. So it does add up quite a bit.

Seconded. I have quite a few force enhancements, and these two spells do reasonable damage to the pit fiend. I usually do not bother until he's in the last part of his hp, though. Then, he goes down quickly.

I think the force spells, incidentally, are somewhat underrated spells. The casting time of magic missile, for instance, is almost instantaneous. I use it in a variety of situations still.