Two Weapon Fighting Intimidate Tank - 84 max AC! 50+ Intimdate, 20+ DR with Evasion!

[Aeneas]

This beats the sword and board at everything and can even throw on a shield and shield block if it wants or just sit there and block without one...

I worry that the devs are thinking this same thing and we're all going to be in for a surprise when something big happens for S + B fighters along the lines of new and more useful shield feats to further separate them from twf and to make sure that both routes have their advantages.


Possibly a new shield only tactical feat (a la trip, stun, shatter) that requires a tree of shield feats to access. Shield Charge or something.

[ColsonJade]

Why no WF brute fighting. Extra agro any way you get it is always good. First level is only 1 AP and since you don't plan to be centered all the time it would be a better spend of that AP you use on way of the badger.

[maddmatt70]

I just realized something...


My STR is 30/32 madstoned... I'm even stronger than you.... Your DPS is not vastly superior. especially when you consider that slash weapons are DPS superior to peirce. You stated you are going for wounding and puncturing which is not a DPS method anyway.

Sigh, Riot you know what these monk splash twf builds are capable of you got a good one in your guild in illumaniti's iron monk. I don't know why you argue something that just isn't true of the game currently. It doesn't mean that next mod they will not fix sword and boarders some - the odds are they will.

These builds can do everything that you can and have more ac and higher dps whether they are dex based or strength based - twf get more attacks. Perhaps the OP should figure out a way to raise his intimidate score, but he also will do a better job of holding aggro then your sword and board build because he CAN do more dps just on the basis of number of attacks with the twf.

[Riot]

Sigh, Riot you know what these monk splash twf builds are capable of you got a good one in your guild in illumaniti's iron monk. I don't know why you argue something that just isn't true of the game currently.

I think you misinterpret my arguement.
I do know exaclty what they are capable of. As you stated I fight right alongside illuminati.

Guess who tanks the majority of mobs?
I do.

Guess who snags Sully agro at the end so DPS boy can Tee off? I do.

The OP posted several falacies. he's quoting DPS superiority and sugesting he goes with WP weapons. That' all fine and well, but undead don't play that game. or for that matter I could grab 2 vorpals and stay right with him in a 1 on 1 scenario.

DPS means very little at that point. it's about number of attacks and luck. Which he will ahve more attacks from twf.
I don't argue that.


The second fault he makes is using different items in the same slot. Ie: bloodstone and head of fortune. pick one.
God forbid if I did that the boards would be all over my arse with a napkin. If we are playing that game I have a great number of gear "set Ups" for darn near every situation in the game. And it's all raid / elite loot, but throwing it all down as a blanket is quite misleading. Would you not agree?

These builds can do everything that you can

no they can't.

and have more ac and higher dps whether they are dex based or strength based - twf get more attacks.

True. they can...

Perhaps the OP should figure out a way to raise his intimidate score,

Bingo. And up his DR capability. WITHOUT losing AC.

50 bucks says offense is what gets sacrificed.. then guess what? Yer just like an intimitank.

but he also will do a better job of holding aggro then your sword and board build because he CAN do more dps just on the basis of number of attacks with the twf.

Again, better job holding agro? How? Intimidate is perma lock. If i don't miss an Intimidate check, there is no "better job". I don't care how much DPS you do.

If we can alla gree that rogues are the BEST situational DPS'ers in the game... Then you will obvisouly see where a DPS rogue will steal agro from the monk/ranger/fighter hybrid. UNLESS he can Intimidate the mob.

At this point the hybrid must choose, DPS (of which he's so proud) or hit the Intimidate button, And what if his lower Intimidate misses? he's lost agro.

the Intimitank, holds the philosophy of holding agro first, And DPS second. heck with the levak's combo we'll get a 20% agro boost. anyway. But the point made is that we Floor most Intimidate checks. Meaning we Don't miss at all. And the rogue ect. can tee off all day long.

I have a full and healthy respect for the ranger monk fighter builds.... High AC, great DPS, self sufficient. Illuminati's Iron monk is a great benefit to our raiding party.
But they are not out "tanking" an intimitank.

per round I guarantee I am absorbing/deflecting more attacks than the monk hybrids.

[nbhs275]

Sigh, Riot you know what these monk splash twf builds are capable of you got a good one in your guild in illumaniti's iron monk. I don't know why you argue something that just isn't true of the game currently. It doesn't mean that next mod they will not fix sword and boarders some - the odds are they will.

These builds can do everything that you can and have more ac and higher dps whether they are dex based or strength based - twf get more attacks. Perhaps the OP should figure out a way to raise his intimidate score, but he also will do a better job of holding aggro then your sword and board build because he CAN do more dps just on the basis of number of attacks with the twf.

Im sure one of the fighter prestiges will have something to do with shields and combat expertise. Thats why im putting off rolling up a new fighter toon until that information is in someform released.

[Riot]

I do agree, that these builds are getting very close to doing what Intimitanks can do.
And I too am hoping for some specialized enhancements for the S&B builds.

So please don't take me for naive. S&B fighters are long overdue for some adjustment.

[maddmatt70]

I think you misinterpret my arguement.
I do know exaclty what they are capable of. As you stated I fight right alongside illuminati.

Guess who tanks the majority of mobs?
I do.

Guess who snags Sully agro at the end so DPS boy can Tee off? I do.

The OP posted several falacies. he's quoting DPS superiority and sugesting he goes with WP weapons. That' all fine and well, but undead don't play that game. or for that matter I could grab 2 vorpals and stay right with him in a 1 on 1 scenario.

DPS means very little at that point. it's about number of attacks and luck. Which he will ahve more attacks from twf.
I don't argue that.


The second fault he makes is using different items in the same slot. Ie: bloodstone and head of fortune. pick one.
God forbid if I did that the boards would be all over my arse with a napkin. If we are playing that game I have a great number of gear "set Ups" for darn near every situation in the game. And it's all raid / elite loot, but throwing it all down as a blanket is quite misleading. Would you not agree?


no they can't.


True. they can...


Bingo. And up his DR capability. WITHOUT losing AC.

50 bucks says offense is what gets sacrificed.. then guess what? Yer just like an intimitank.



Again, better job holding agro? How? Intimidate is perma lock. If i don't miss an Intimidate check, there is no "better job". I don't care how much DPS you do.

If we can alla gree that rogues are the BEST situational DPS'ers in the game... Then you will obvisouly see where a DPS rogue will steal agro from the monk/ranger/fighter hybrid. UNLESS he can Intimidate the mob.

At this point the hybrid must choose, DPS (of which he's so proud) or hit the Intimidate button, And what if his lower Intimidate misses? he's lost agro.

the Intimitank, holds the philosophy of holding agro first, And DPS second. heck with the levak's combo we'll get a 20% agro boost. anyway. But the point made is that we Floor most Intimidate checks. Meaning we Don't miss at all. And the rogue ect. can tee off all day long.

I have a full and healthy respect for the ranger monk fighter builds.... High AC, great DPS, self sufficient. Illuminati's Iron monk is a great benefit to our raiding party.
But they are not out "tanking" an intimitank.

per round I guarantee I am absorbing/deflecting more attacks than the monk hybrids.

I have run with ranger monks hybrids who get hit less then 7 times in an entire vod elite run and they tank sulu the whole time. I don't know what you mean by absorbing/deflecting attacks really - if a build doesn't get hit it doesn't have to absorb or deflect anything. If your group plays smart the ranger/monk can hold aggro the whole time on any quest really - an intimidate feature is not a necessity for this by any means..

One of the advantages of a fighter in ddo is their flexibility - they can go out and do a ton of dps one minute and then next minute go into a defensive mode. Norg, my fighter, has that sort of style and ability although he is usually in a dps mode, but he can go shield have a nice dr, with high hit points, and maintain a good ac. I actually feel that is one thing lacking in your and borro's builds is the ability to go into dps mode. The OP's build better addresses that. I actually like the bloodstone/ head of good fortune trinket combo and would suggest it for a hardcore player if I want dps I have the bloodstone, but if I want saves against a beholder I can throw that on.

I agree that the OP should probably have figured out a way to raise his intimidate score, but other two weapon monk splash builds have managed to get their intimidates into the mid 50s so I don't know what your point is other then a comment on his build. The leviks combo by the way should be 40% I think because that is more inline with the amount of dps that twf and thf does over sword and board.

Your comment regarding rogues is I think almost as much about who you play with. I personally have a past tradition of playing with excellent barbarians and rangers and less of playing with great rogues whereas you have I think played with some excellent rogues. Higher dps is higher dps. Rogues can be played in many ways - they can be dependent on others to generate alot of dps for them or self sufficient or not really dps based at all. I think very few rogues think they are going to base their characters off feeding off of an intimidate tank perhaps in your guild that is more a consideration, but very few in game think that way.

Finally, I would have illuminati tank sulu the entire time and you on the general mobs using intimidate what have you to make life easier for the rest of the party. At the very end I would still have illuminati on Sulu because he is going to get missed more then you. I run with a few ranger monk characters who are similiar (I have run with illumanti several times as well) and that is how our group will utilize their skill set in conjunction with an intimidate tank.

[oogly54]

If these new enhancments follow the books an add weapons master, then the DPS issue will be null. (increased crit range and multiplier) Weird how everyone talks about how great the 10% speed bonus is for rangers but never mention the 30% speed bonus for a fighter.

[nbhs275]

If these new enhancments follow the books an add weapons master, then the DPS issue will be null. (increased crit range and multiplier) Weird how everyone talks about how great the 10% speed bonus is for rangers but never mention the 30% speed bonus for a fighter.

Which is for a total of 1:40 between shrines. And which a ranger that dips fighter can get...

[Blazer]

Which is for a total of 1:40 between shrines. And which a ranger that dips fighter can get...

Well, truthfully the 30% fighter haste boost is a lvl 10 enhancement; that's a lot of dipping the ranger did into the fighter class. At that point, it's probably more accurate to say the fighter has dipped into the ranger class to pick up tempest. Unless you meant the ranger who has dipped only four levels of fighter and has picked up Ftr Haste Boost II (+20%, coupled with +10% tempest boost = 30%).

[Notorious]

So you beat sword and board if you become sword and board?

For starters your unbuffed AC is 8 points below mine. And dont' think that you won't be debuffed ever.

Intimidate???
You said


it's +2 Cha boost from tier 2. Subtract your perma heroism too.
You realize that with that Bloodstone you are wearing you can't wear a head of good fortune don't you? MINUS another 2.

that makes you.
19 Skill
13 item (ring)
3 Intimidate enhancements
3 Skill Focus: Intimidate
2 BullHeaded
1 Way of the Badger
+2 Cha skill boost from Tier 2 item
------------------------------------------
A Whopping 43.... not bad...


Me curently....
19 skill
15 item
Head of Good Fortune
3 CHA
4 Intimidate enhancements
3 Skill Focus: Intimidate
2 BullHeaded
+2 Cha skill boost from Tier 2 item
---------------------------------
50

7 points higher.... Which makes a big difference against larger opponents where we draw minuses.


And DR... while yer waiting to proc DR. I have a 10 DR/slash blunt constant, and 30+ DR at the push of a button.


Again.. you have DPS...

grats.

It's a good build... but I think your way over selling it.

it is a typo - +3 cha boost from tier 3 item.
I don't wear the bloodstone when intimiate may fail without the +2...
My intimidate is 51 ALWAYS if I think I need all the points. I do have a planar drid and there is almost always someone to GH. I also have a 15 Intimi helm that I don't wear, so if I need the extra points I can put it on and move my gear around, but this has never been necessary as both of us know 51 cuts it and 49 does too actually. I have the flexibility to decide to add more dps or more intimidate. In real experience, other than being dispelled, I am not below 49 and at 51 if I need it - you are selling my Intimdate short - I simply don't fail unless I roll a 1 as I always have the right gear up for the situation.
And my DPS is DPS - I am wielding a Mineral II Green Steel Rapier in one hand swinging at Tempest speed with Fighter speed boosts... I haven't decided the other hand yet. But with our without the bloodstone it will still out DPS even you Riot. I use w/p in dungeons or on trash mobs and not only will tremendoulsy out kill any/sword and board, I can always move to pure DPS. You have one of the best sword and board intimidators, and in situations where I can be dispelled you will be better. In situation were pure defensive Intimidate is necessary, you are better. I made this build to be flexible for DPS and for max Intimidate with a pretty reliable DR when I need it (it is on much of the time in big raid battles).
Although your DR is more responsive, it is at the expense of DPS - which again, I have more of.


19 skill
13 item (ring)
1 or 2 (potion for 2) CHA (if a better CHA item can be mixed in then this will increase total)
3 Intimidate enhancements
3 Skill Focus: Intimidate
2 BullHeaded
1 Way of the Badger
4 Greater Heroism
2 Head of Good Fortune
+3 Cha skill boost from Tier 3 item
50/51

[Notorious]

I just realized something...


My STR is 30/32 madstoned... I'm even stronger than you.... Your DPS is not vastly superior. especially when you consider that slash weapons are DPS superior to peirce. You stated you are going for wounding and puncturing which is not a DPS method anyway.

The small difference in str does not and slightly smaller weap damage does not account for tempest speed max twf... you know that...

[Notorious]

I do agree, that these builds are getting very close to doing what Intimitanks can do.
And I too am hoping for some specialized enhancements for the S&B builds.

So please don't take me for naive. S&B fighters are long overdue for some adjustment.

Riot - you are one of the better players in the game and your skill makes your toon play above what most would get out of a sword and board intimi tank - but if you can imagine doing what you do with 2 weaps and fighting at tempest speed you would have an approx of what this build does.

The downsides of this build are not intimidate - I realistically run with 49 to 51 in every situation it is necessary,
is not DPS - with shroud weaps I have real DPS and at +7 str damage and +2 pierce damage without PE I am looking good with shroud weaps before any other bonuses. - the DR is usually helpful and not a negative. And, in a dungeon, or against raid mobs I can go w/p or 2 vorps and lay down a wooping in a way only high dex tempest rangers can and boost on top of it. For weaps that matter for how often they swing and not how much damage, there is nothing better...
And don't forget - I have evasion and solid resists...

The downsides are:
annoying shield clickes, and wands
no way to control DR while not sword and board (although I may add some DR enchancements and take this but I doubt it).
lower hp than a good intimidate tank.
And overall, the biggest problem is ----> the reliance on buffs to reach target AC and for some situations this negates your ability to tank....

[Notorious]

Why no WF brute fighting. Extra agro any way you get it is always good. First level is only 1 AP and since you don't plan to be centered all the time it would be a better spend of that AP you use on way of the badger.

I have it - just not listed - i only put the most significant enhancements.

[Notorious]

I
I have a full and healthy respect for the ranger monk fighter builds.... High AC, great DPS, self sufficient. Illuminati's Iron monk is a great benefit to our raiding party.
But they are not out "tanking" an intimitank.

per round I guarantee I am absorbing/deflecting more attacks than the monk hybrids.

When you add his evasion and higher armor in some instances he is going to, but in some you will. That it is even possible for a duel wielding DPS toon is the real value in the build. Built right with the right weaps, it will out DPS sword and board significantly and in many instances it will be nearly as good, just as good or better than the sword and board intimidate tank and have a great deal of more flexibility - this making it a viable option.

[Notorious]

I do agree, that these builds are getting very close to doing what Intimitanks can do.

Then we are in agreement...

But, it is more fun to be able to lay out some solid DPS and to lay out some unmatched killing power with w/p in dungeons and on non-boss mobs. It is immensly fun to intimidate all mobs in a dungeon, use w/p, banishers, smiters, vorpals, etc, lead in kills almost every time and then put out some good dps on the boss mob while holding agro with intimidate and fully buffed (in a dungeon). Throw in evasion and resists - forget about it. In many situations this build is unstoppable and really fun to play.

Minus the annoyign shield clickies....

[Notorious]

I do agree, that these builds are getting very close to doing what Intimitanks can do.
And I too am hoping for some specialized enhancements for the S&B builds.

So please don't take me for naive. S&B fighters are long overdue for some adjustment.

S&B love = liberal use of dispel by mobs...

[Illuminati]

Good build. I love the concept (as you know).

What I think would help the S&B folks need besides PsC's is something exciting to do while turtling. I think this will be done via quest design though.

Since enhancements are so DDO anyway, perhaps more taunting effects like shaken, etc. would help.

I.e. Electric Spasm I: When you are attacked, any creature who successfully hits you take 1d6 electrical damage. You must have a shield equipped for Electric Spasm to activate.

Stuff like that.

That way, you are not really increasing the DPS of a S/B over a 2hf or 2wf, but you add some spice to their game play.

[Riot]

**attention**
DPS is not my contention.

For anyone who might have missed this.

Finally, I would have illuminati tank sulu the entire time and you on the general mobs using intimidate what have you to make life easier for the rest of the party.

This is exactly how we do it.
Illu tanks Sully, I tank...... wait for it...... EVERYTHING ELSE.....

When Sully is ready to be finished off after the Orthons. Illu holds him to the side. I slide in next to him, Buff up, and INTIM while blocking. Conveiniently this blocks his Curse effect. ie: I've never been cursed by Sully while blocking.

The rest of the group jumps Sully down he goes.

Maybe you are not aware of the fact Sully will react to Many shot rangers or Bursting DPS over that last 5% but he will.
I've seen on more than one occassion (on other toons) that he'll haul arse across the room to slap a ranger or wizard down. EVEN after being Held agro wise by a build such as you sugest. I know... I've BEEN that wizard!

use w/p, banishers, smiters, vorpals,

All are weapons I have and use. You say this like I can't use them?

And as far as Evasion goes. I can't really tell you just how much I don't need evasion.
Name 1 raid where I "NEED" Evasion. My saves are more than adequate for any and all content in game.
And don't even say the shroud.

Do you realize that I heal from AoE Cures like some toons heal from the HEAL spell?
I run at 50% Boost to healing MINIMUM. 70% boost if I'm that concerned.

An AOE cure spell heals me for over 100HP NON Crit. There is Not 1 single guild cleric who uses a heal spell on me.
it's literally a waste of Mana. And I haven't even began to delve into mana efficiency of the Human Fighter.

And don't get me started on mana Pots, which imho are largely responsible for wrecking alot of challenge to DDO.

Not to mention anything that does hit me, takes 1d8 Sonic, 1d8 Acid, 4 roar, Becomming Shaken, 1d8 Peirce, Most likely a Fire or ice sheild, Have to deal with Slay Living Guard, and will have a chance to HEAL me (when they fix it).
Thanks for shopping and I'll tack an extra 20% agro to that bill. Drive through.

Maybe it's dismissed that I can run Unbuffed, and still hold a Greater Resist to 4 elements, and only lose 2 AC, and zero Intimidate power.

While I may not be a Tempest Ranger, I do have the ability to grab a 2 hander turn a 36-38 STR, Power attack, and speed or Damage Boost. And I'll be danged if that's "weak sauce".

I can flip around my gear just as easily as the next guy.

Look guys... respectfulyl here,,,I'm not angry... So dont' take this as me yelling and stomping.
I'm just saying, this build said it can do everything I can do and then some. And it's just not true.

Are these new builds really good? Yes they are. Very impressive and quite well rounded. I see them in action day in and day out.
From what I'd consider one or two of the best players I've ever seen.
Does S&B need some love? yes they do... the gap has closed alot closer than what I beleive Turbine thought it would.
Are these new builds replacing the S&B intimitanks? No. the benefits of the S&B intimitank are still relevant.

From day 1 of gaming, Damage has always been the PNS measuring stick. If flashy, it's blinky, and it gets attention.
But it's far from the only factor. It's just the shiney one.

[Notorious]

Very nice post Riot.

I spoke hastily when I said this build will kick the **** out of any S&B build, as this is not true for your's and a small handful of other toons like your's.

Point taken.