My rogue, whatcha think?

[WaltzInBlack]

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Jonahh2 
Level 16 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(1 Monk \ 9 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 162
Spell Points: 55 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 23
Will: 12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 16)           (Level 16)
Strength              9                 10                   10
Dexterity            19                 24                   28
Constitution         13                 14                   14
Intelligence         12                 13                   13
Wisdom               14                 15                   15
Charisma              9                 10                   10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 16)          (Level 16)
Balance               9                 19                   19
Bluff                 0                  0                    0
Concentration         2                  2                    2
Diplomacy             0                  0                    0
Disable Device        5                 20                   22
Haggle                0                  0                    0
Heal                  2                 14                   15
Hide                  6                 11                   13
Intimidate            0                  0                    0
Jump                  4                 14                   17
Listen                4                  6                    8
Move Silently         6                 11                   13
Open Lock             9                 28                   30
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                  1                    1
Search                5                 20                   21
Spot                  6                 21                   21
Swim                  0                  4                    4
Tumble                9                 21                   21
Use Magic Device      4                 19                   19

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Agility
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Bravery
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Keen Ears
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Luck
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Size Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+2)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 10 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+5)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Open Lock (+7)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

[Noctus]

Overall nice, but i would lower DEX by 1 point and put 2 of the freed build points into STR and 1 into CON.

[Vagabond]

Get rid of the monk level so you can use crippling strike.

9 rogue/* is a crime against yourself.

[Noctus]

He should not do this, as getting rid of the Monk level wold pull a great hole into his AC.

[binnsr]

at 20, he'll have Rogue13/Ranger6/Monk1 .. which gives him Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike (or whatever he chooses)..

[richieelias27]

His wis bonus from being a monk is largely worthless. Even with a +5 wis item He is only getting +5 AC which is less than he could have with a shield.

So yes, get rid of the monk level as it serves no purpose (he doesnt even lose his extra monk feat as he forgot to take a feat at 15 anyway).

Why even consider level 20 which is at best a year away, possibly even longer?

[binnsr]

His wis bonus from being a monk is largely worthless. Even with a +5 wis item He is only getting +5 AC which is less than he could have with a shield.

Actually, the +5 wisdom bonus is coupled with the +2 from having Tempest, which makes it equal to having a shield - while having the buzzsaw DPS that comes with a Tempested TWF build.
+5 to your AC is meaningless when your AC is 15 like my barbarians is, but when you can have a 53 standing AC and no 'special' equipment, then +5 definately makes a difference.
10 Base
7 Armor Bracers
4 Shield Spell (gogo umd)
12 Dex Bonus
5 Wis Bonus
1 Dodge Feat
5 Protection Item
2 Tempest
1 Alchemical on Robe
1 Halfling Size
= 53
+1 +8 Armor Bracers
+3 Chattering Ring
+4 Shroud Insight Weapon
+4 Icy Raiments
= 65 Standing AC with good gear
+5 Ranger Barkskin
+4 Inspire Heroism
+4 Pally Aura
+2 Recitation
+1 Haste
= 77 Raid AC

If you take away the monk level, you can subtract 10 from that because you can't fit in CE and gTWF any longer -- and at end game, a 43 AC is MUCH different than a 53.

So yes, get rid of the monk level as it serves no purpose (he doesnt even lose his extra monk feat as he forgot to take a feat at 15 anyway).

I think that's a bug in the character planner's output as I see alot of builds that don't have the lvl15 feat filled in. I would guess that he has Greater Two Weapon Fighting there.

Why even consider level 20 which is at best a year away, possibly even longer?

If you don't mind the reroll syndrome, then by all means, don't plan for the future. With his level splits, he knows exactly what he's getting at lvl20 - unlike a pure-class or splash-class character who doesn't know that enhancements are down the road at 18 or 20..

I've been advocating planning your builds out to lvl20 since the cap was 12.

[nbhs275]

at 20, he'll have Rogue13/Ranger6/Monk1 .. which gives him Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike (or whatever he chooses)..

Thing is, even if he goes and makes his ac high, he will be yet another toon who hits like a wet noodle. And im sorry but i rather have a real ranger with a 60 AC TWF with PA running then a 10 str 70 AC mess...

[binnsr]

Thing is, even if he goes and makes his ac high, he will be yet another toon who hits like a wet noodle. And im sorry but i rather have a real ranger with a 60 AC TWF with PA running then a 10 str 70 AC mess...

If you think that Rogues hit like wet noodles (particularly gTWF tempested rogues), then why bother posting in the Rogue forum?

When you have 5d6 SA with 10% permanent melee alacrity that stacks with haste, who cares if you've got a 16 str or a 34str...

also, would your 'real ranger' not have a strength item on?

[WaltzInBlack]

Some v good points all round.

I am going 13-6-1 but the dilema is what to take at 16. Monk for the ac or rogue for criplling strike. It will probably depend whether I have a decent set of WOPs by then or whether I will have to make do with WOEs (in which case I will delay the monk until 17)

He should not do this, as getting rid of the Monk level wold pull a great hole into his AC.

QFT

Actually, the +5 wisdom bonus is coupled with the +2 from having Tempest, which makes it equal to having a shield - while having the buzzsaw DPS that comes with a Tempested TWF build.
+5 to your AC is meaningless when your AC is 15 like my barbarians is, but when you can have a 53 standing AC and no 'special' equipment, then +5 definately makes a difference.
10 Base
7 Armor Bracers
4 Shield Spell (gogo umd)
12 Dex Bonus
5 Wis Bonus
1 Dodge Feat
5 Protection Item
2 Tempest
1 Alchemical on Robe
1 Halfling Size
= 53
+1 +8 Armor Bracers
+3 Chattering Ring
+4 Shroud Insight Weapon
+4 Icy Raiments
= 65 Standing AC with good gear
+5 Ranger Barkskin
+4 Inspire Heroism
+4 Pally Aura
+2 Recitation
+1 Haste
= 77 Raid AC

If you take away the monk level, you can subtract 10 from that because you can't fit in CE and gTWF any longer -- and at end game, a 43 AC is MUCH different than a 53.



I think that's a bug in the character planner's output as I see alot of builds that don't have the lvl15 feat filled in. I would guess that he has Greater Two Weapon Fighting there.

If you don't mind the reroll syndrome, then by all means, don't plan for the future. With his level splits, he knows exactly what he's getting at lvl20 - unlike a pure-class or splash-class character who doesn't know that enhancements are down the road at 18 or 20..

I've been advocating planning your builds out to lvl20 since the cap was 12.

QFT

Thx again all

[nbhs275]

If you think that Rogues hit like wet noodles (particularly gTWF tempested rogues), then why bother posting in the Rogue forum?

When you have 5d6 SA with 10% permanent melee alacrity that stacks with haste, who cares if you've got a 16 str or a 34str...

also, would your 'real ranger' not have a strength item on?

ok, where is this character putting all his items then?

+6 str
+6 wis
+6 dex
+6 con
+7-8 armor bracers
icy rainments
chattering ring
+5 protection
heavy fort

??? everyone putting together these silly monk splashfests seems to forget your still limited by your item slots.

and im not saying rogues hit like wet noods, im saying compared to a real rogue this one does

[Aspenor]

ok, where is this character putting all his items then?

+6 str
+6 wis
+6 dex
+6 con
+7-8 armor bracers
icy rainments
chattering ring
+5 protection
heavy fort

??? everyone putting together these silly monk splashfests seems to forget your still limited by your item slots.

and im not saying rogues hit like wet noods, im saying compared to a real rogue this one does

Mineral II shroud items are fantastic.

So is raid loot (Belt of Brute Strength, Tharne's Bracers, etc.)

[maddmatt70]

I can't believe that people are still questioning the monk splash builds especially with the ranger tempest. Obviously these people are ignorant. This is a very powerful build. I have run with a 13 rogue/2monk/1 fighter who was the main tank on sulu on elite and rarely got hit. This build will be similar and perhaps even better because it can hold aggro better.

[nbhs275]

example: DPS rogue with rapiers would be at 1d8 +15 str +9 PA +7d6+20 SA in his main hand, vs this builds potential

1d8+4str +5d6+25SA


52-94 a hit against

35-67

you attack 10% faster, but i hit 40% harder. You do the math.

[WaltzInBlack]

My opinon here is based upon aggro management. This build is to follow the dps monster and/or intimitank.

with intimitank its all good, no need to explain there

but without intimidate

I should have dps slightly under the main dps of the grp
because as teh monster dpser, including your str based rogue, is out dpsing me

he will have aggro, I will be be 5d6ing. I will be probably out dps everyone until I get agro.

once agro switches to me, either diplomacy or teh monster dpsers will then overtake me (no 5d6 anymore)

rinse and repeat

My lack of strength is not important as I will have similar dps to a str based rogue


(except of course when soloing!)

[Aeneas]

It'll work.....at least until the devs decide being uncentered takes away your monk AC wisdom bonus - no they haven't mentioned anything like this, but don't forget you used to be able to evade in full plate.


Also, stating that your dps is going to be on par with a strength rogue is in my opinion, an overstatement. You're not going to make up 3d6 + 6 (backstab training 3 and 4) + 6 (estimate for str damage difference) +5 (power attack instead of weapon finesse) just by having 10% increased attack speed. Not to mention that the rogue will probably backstab more due to not intimidating the mobs for aggro and registering less damage from higher tiers of subtle backstabber. Criticals further separate a str build because the glaring base damage difference is multiplied.


Your damage will be decent, i just don't think it will steal aggro from a main tank very often.

[Aspenor]

example: DPS rogue with rapiers would be at 1d8 +15 str +9 PA +7d6+20 SA in his main hand, vs this builds potential

1d8+4str +5d6+25SA


52-94 a hit against

35-67

you attack 10% faster, but i hit 40% harder. You do the math.

right, because your DPS is all that matters, EVER.

[binnsr]

ok, where is this character putting all his items then?

+6 str
+6 wis
+6 dex
+6 con
+7-8 armor bracers
icy rainments
chattering ring
+5 protection
heavy fort

??? everyone putting together these silly monk splashfests seems to forget your still limited by your item slots.

and im not saying rogues hit like wet noods, im saying compared to a real rogue this one does

RagDoll	
Armor	Icy Raiments
Shield	n/a
Goggles	Shroud n/p
Helmet	Minos Legens / Int (for traps)
Necklace	Con +5
Trinket	Head of Good Fortune
Cloak	Protect +5 / Cha +5
Belt	Greater False Life
Gloves	Str +6
Boots	Striding
Ring1	Chattering Ring
Ring2	Diplomacy / DD / OL / Search / Spot
Bracers	Armor

Belt of Brute Strength, Reavers Napkin, Shroud Mineral II .. all of those open up a lot of other gearing options.

[nbhs275]

right, because your DPS is all that matters, EVER.

AC is nice, but AC with no way to have aggro is pointless. If this is meant to be an intimitank, then it should do ok. But the problem right now is we have so many of these builds running around thinking they can do DPS. And they really cant compared to a real ranger, barbarian or rogue. Also, DPS doesnt always mean a complete lack of defence. My ranger is always mid 50s standing, 60 buffed which is enough to stop most damage.

[binnsr]

umm.. a rogue is only really putting out DPS if he does not have aggro.. agro management means 2 different things when you're talking about a rogue and any other melee character..