Diplo-Tank

[GrayOldDruid]

You've seen the Intimitank....

I am in the process of building a Rogue 7, Fighter 7, xxx?? Dwarf.

Diplomacy plays a small part in the build, just because he is a Rogue and the Sneak Attack is great.
I've noticed another benefit to the build, Sneak Attack works when doing a Cleave and Great Cleave. Trying to get a screen recorder to "Prove" it.
Since, I can't export the combat log to pull some sense out of it, video seems the only way.

This is my first planned build, so I may really need some input. Already to Level 8.. or 7...

As an 8/8 split, so far the "Build" looks like ( Note: NO EQUIPMENT, just base ) :

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Skeratch Brasher
Level 16 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(8 Fighter \ 8 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 260
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 10
Will: 3

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 16)           (Level 16)
Strength             18                 23                   25
Dexterity            12                 12                   14
Constitution         16                 16                   18
Intelligence         13                 14                   14
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma              7                  8                    8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 4

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 16)          (Level 16)
Balance               5                  7                   11
Bluff                -2                 -1                   -1
Concentration         3                  4                    4
Diplomacy            -1                 11                   11
Disable Device        5                 21                   23
Haggle                1                  3                    3
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                  1                  2                    2
Intimidate           -2                 -1                   -1
Jump                  8                 25                   25
Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
Move Silently         1                  2                    2
Open Lock             5                 21                   22
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                  5                    5
Search                5                 21                   23
Spot                  2                  3                    3
Swim                  6                 14                   14
Tumble                2                  4                    4
Use Magic Device      2                 18                   18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+2)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Swim (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Diehard
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Jump (+4)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II

Should I go 7/7 split and splash in two levels of Ranger to get two weapon fighting, bow strength (in case I need to range with something other than my returning throwing axes), Higher Will save, Wild Empathy, 1 favored enemy and Rapid Shot? When level cap increases, add one more level of Ranger for Diehard and swap out the taken diehard feat for something else?

[richieelias27]

I suspect that if you want diplomacy to play "any" part you'll need the skill to be way higher than 11.

That said, I dont see how anything using diplomacy could be a "tank". A tank is someone that holds and keeps aggro so that mobs are centered around them and they are the only one getting hit. Someone that randomly drops aggro on mobs by using diplomacy, even if they get it back a little while later through sneak attacks is by no means, a "tank".

Also, why on earth would you max str and then put a level stat point into CHA which you dumped from the begining? by subtracting one from STR at creation you get 3 points to put wherever else, thats 2 points you've wasted.

At any rate, I think you're going to have to explain exactly what you're trying to do with this build.

[CSFurious]

that is the number necessary for consistent results at end-game

tanks attract aggro, they do not push it onto others

this build would be better with more levels of rogue for higher diplo & sneak-attack damage

you can have an intimidation dwarf rogue which works better because intimidate is fighter class skill, but then you get no sneak-attacks

i admire creativity, but this will not work out very well

[Aspenor]

Diplomacy too low...evasion nigh useless...low AC and sub-par damage output....

this definitely doesn't look like it will work out too well.

Points put into charisma while leveling...why?

[GrayOldDruid]

Okay, so maybe its a semi-planned build. I just started it and the CHR point was to help improve UMD (spur of the moment bad decision probably late at night). Going to hate re-rolling cause I ate a +2 Tome... maybe can re-adjust.

So far though, He's not doing bad at all. Intimitanks can't keep aggro off of him and he puts everything down pretty fast. He's come to 'the rescue' many times. Solo'd STK at level five. Often the last one standing.

Without extreme lack of humor (the term Diplo-Tank was meant to be funny...) and bashing of anything non-standard, any Helpful ideas to 'rescue' the concept from level 7 (4 Fighter/3 Rogue)? I want him to be a good support role... Take good advantage of an Intimitank by really throwing some damage out while the tank has aggro, toss an emergency cure, survive. He uses Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Cleave, Great Cleave a lot. Would like to go for a Caster-Killer, dodge through the mob and take out the real threat. Then come from behind and whack the mobs down good.

That is what I WANT him to do... so far though he has been the best or second best "tank" the group has as well as opening locks and disabling traps. I don't want him to be front-line, but that is where he is shining at the moment. He does switch from Light to Full Plate when he is playing 'tank.'

Advice like "Drop Open Lock and Disable Device to concentrate on Diplomacy if you want to get up to the 40 needed to work reliably at end-game" would be good. Or "While you're not going to be Uber, you can be more effective if you..... "

So, 7/7/2 or 8/8 or 7/9 ... something to concentrate on getting higher?

[Dexxaan]

There´s a Toon Player on Sarlona that has two Toons that seems to fit the Toon Build you are proposing.

Toon # 1 is "Imnotta Rogue" and I believe he is DEX based...not sure about this Toon.

But the Toon I really think you could look at for Toon Design is his 2nd Toon "Eikken"; and he´s a STR based Dwarven Toon; Rogue 10 Fighter 6.

As his Toon is geared and played, he´s probably the biggest Aggro Magnet Toon I have ever played with.

My Toon Build suggestions for Level 20 would be to go Rogue 12 (WOTA) and either Ranger 2 or Barbarian 2 for the usual Toon benefits.

Hope this Toon info helps you design and enjoy your Toon...a ton.


P.S. Interesting Sig.

[GrayOldDruid]

There´s a Toon Player on Sarlona that has two Toons that seems to fit the Toon Build you are proposing.

Toon # 1 is "Imnotta Rogue" and I believe he is DEX based...not sure about this Toon.

But the Toon I really think you could look at for Toon Design is his 2nd Toon "Eikken"; and he´s a STR based Dwarven Toon; Rogue 10 Fighter 6.

As his Toon is geared and played, he´s probably the biggest Aggro Magnet Toon I have ever played with.

My Toon Build suggestions for Level 20 would be to go Rogue 12 (WOTA) and either Ranger 2 or Barbarian 2 for the usual Toon benefits.

Hope this Toon info helps you design and enjoy your Toon...a ton.


P.S. Interesting Sig.

LOL.... ROFLOL....

Thank you.
Think Eikken can post an "about my Character build" post?
Stats, Feats, Enhancements, levels...

[Dexxaan]

I´ll be unable to log in as I am out of town (Work sucks) until Saturday Morn.

I´ll look him up and ask him to post the build info.



Happy Hunting!

[Grosbeak07]

I guess if you are having fun with your build and it seems to be working, and the pugs you join and your guildees don't seem to complain alot, what does it matter what the rest of us think?

My wife built a Rogue/Wizard/Cleric build, which in the early levels looked like a mistake, but as she gained levels it suddenly started to work out for her. Now, she still gets denied into a lot of groups, becuase people think she can't do anything well, but when groups do take her in, they are all saying 'wow!' by the end. With her kind of build she is a great support character, can heal (especially Warforged), use wands, UMD, disable traps and range attacks. The only drawback is she can't tank or crowd control, but then that's why there are 5 others in a group.

If you like your build and effectively use the abilities of your character with the right equipment, then yes this build can work. Since I've run with you a few times, I know you are a competent player and can make the build work. It may take some in-game experimentation to get all the kinks worked out, but then that's part of the fun right?

[GrayOldDruid]

I guess if you are having fun with your build and it seems to be working, and the pugs you join and your guildees don't seem to complain alot, what does it matter what the rest of us think?

Tweek sez HI!

Well, Aspenor and CSFurious got me to realize that the Diplo probably needs to be a LOT higher to be useful down the line.

So, changed up a bit.
Final Numbers now :

HP 256
Fighter (6) Rogue (8) Ranger (2)
BAB 14\14\19\24

Nekkid Stats:
STR 24
DEX 13
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 8
CHR 8

Balance 17
Diplo 18
Jump 22
Tumble 15
UMD 21

Feats
Diehard
Power Attack
Improved Sunder
Evasion
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Cleave
Favored Enemy : Evil Outsider
Toughness
Improved Crit - Slashing
Two Weapon Fighting
Stunning Blow
Improved Uncanny Dodge

Way of the Assassin I

... may re-work enhancements to see about getting WotA II.... dunno...

[krud]

I built a human str based 8ftr/8rog with improved feint and cleave. Fun build, but it did have quite a few shortcomings that I ended up addressing with a reroll. The newer version is 8rog/6ftr/2pal.

It's true you get multiple sneak attacks with cleave, however to make it useful it helps to be able to gather a crowd around you. My character used Improved Feint follwed by cleave to generate sneak attacks. While it does work, sometimes creatures would turn and move out of melee range. I suspect diplo will only be worse. I ended up dropping cleave on the reroll. But he still has improved feint to help out when in a crowd. I did grab a bow for ranged uses, but quickly got rid of it. They are usually pretty weak, unless you are built for it. Also your dex isn't really high enough to make it worthwhile. My reflex saves were never high enough to perform well on elite traps. The reroll took 2 levels of pally and resilience in order to get my saves up to elite levels. With your low CHA 2pal won't help much, however.

When multiclassing like this, I think it helps to spread build points around a bit and not max anything. I started with a 16str (ended up at 30). It is high enough to land my stunning blow quite often when using the tenderizer from the reaver. If dual wielding a good vertigo weapon and the tenderizer, you'll be able to trip/stun quite a bit.

An 8ftr/8rog can work well, however in this case I don't think this setup is the best way to take advantage of what each class has to offer. He'll be a ftr with lowish HP, but not a really great AC to ward off hits. He'll be a rogue with subpar reflex saves. His sneak attack damage will help add to damage, but it will be hard to get it to land on multiple mobs when using diplo/cleave. He'll be a TWF without the higher tier TWF feats.

You are all over the place with what you want to achieve with this build. Focus a bit more on fewer aspects of what you want to achieve with the character and try not to do just a little bit from each of your multiclasses. If you are going to multiclass that deep as a rogue, you should be able to get more out of it than just 4d6+6 sneak damage. If you want to maximize sneak attacks, you might be better off with more rogue levels and be more of a str-based rogue. If you want him to be twf-tactics rogue/ftr, then work toward the stunning blow/trip and invest more toward the higher TWF feats. If you want him to be more of a tank, you'll only need a few rogue levels to get what you need of a rogue.

[GrayOldDruid]

Reworked the Enhancements...

HP 271
Fighter (6) Rogue (8) Ranger (2)
BAB 14\14\19\24
AC - 11 nekkid, ( with a +5 Full Plate, +5 Heavy Steel Shield, +4 Protection Cloak/ring/etc = 36 )

STR 25 (+6 STR item for 31 and a +1 ex str shroud weapon for 32)
DEX 13 (going to eat a +1 Dex tome at some point, +6 Dex item for 20)
CON 18 (+6 CON Item for 22)
INT 14 (+6 INT Item for 20)
WIS 8
CHR 8 (+6 CHR Item for 14)

UMD 21
Diplo 18
Balance 17
Jump 22
Tumble 15

Feats
Diehard
Power Attack
Improved Sunder
Evasion
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Cleave
Favored Enemy : Evil Outsider
Toughness
Improved Crit - Slashing
Two Weapon Fighting
Stunning Blow
Improved Uncanny Dodge

[Varr]

You are building a combat/melee character........and you have lots of feats.........and are str built..........to me, this sets up well for a two handed great axe swinging 12 rogue/4 fighter with all of the two weapon fighting feats for max attacks per round. Why be a str build and take two levels of ranger for weak two weapon fighting....you dont have the dex for improved or greater two weapon fighting. Why swim when you can apply those points to your diplomacy even if at 2 points for 1 increase (it should be maxed.) With the extra rogue levels you can get improved evasion, which might be usefull if you can boost your reflex save and way of the assassin 2..........why armor mastery? Wearing full plate and giving up evasion vs wearing mith chain is not a great idea. Your going ot have a 20/22 max dex, in mith chain (light for evasion) you will not have enough dex to need help. 9 feats could be ..........power attack, two handed fighting, toughness, stunning blow, focus: slash, improved two handed fighting, improved crit slash, greater two handed fighting, specialization slash........in some order. Now this is if your commited to being a diplomacy using str build dwarf. As opposed to a diplomacy using dex built human/elf/halfling. I would sacrifice the tome, and reroll to this if I am understanding your basic idea.

[GrayOldDruid]

You are building a combat/melee character........and you have lots of feats.........and are str built..........to me, this sets up well for a two handed great axe swinging 12 rogue/4 fighter with all of the two weapon fighting feats for max attacks per round. Why be a str build and take two levels of ranger for weak two weapon fighting....you dont have the dex for improved or greater two weapon fighting. Why swim when you can apply those points to your diplomacy even if at 2 points for 1 increase (it should be maxed.) With the extra rogue levels you can get improved evasion, which might be usefull if you can boost your reflex save and way of the assassin 2..........why armor mastery? Wearing full plate and giving up evasion vs wearing mith chain is not a great idea. Your going ot have a 20/22 max dex, in mith chain (light for evasion) you will not have enough dex to need help. 9 feats could be ..........power attack, two handed fighting, toughness, stunning blow, focus: slash, improved two handed fighting, improved crit slash, greater two handed fighting, specialization slash........in some order. Now this is if your commited to being a diplomacy using str build dwarf. As opposed to a diplomacy using dex built human/elf/halfling. I would sacrifice the tome, and reroll to this if I am understanding your basic idea.

Thanks for the input!

The Full Plate is for when he is called on to do the heavy fighting... which at the moment he is doing quite often. Also, depending on finding or being able to afford Mithril Chain shirt is not something I want to commit to. I do have a nice +5 Darkleaf Breastplate waiting for a few levels, so yeah, maybe the 2AP spent on armor mastery could be spent elsewhere... The build is not going to HINGE on Diplo, but maybe it can be useful occasionally. Diplomacy is already maxed out at 21, so its not going to be way too effective at end game, even with a +15 Diplo item, but will only be 4 points shy of the 40, so not waaaay too bad.

So far I have not been a fan of THF... but using the weapon comparison tool, wow, the damage output is significant. Thanks for the direction there. I'll give that a shot.

Already at lvl 7... Feats are Diehard, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Cleave... and with THF adjustments will be : Toughness (to keep some Toughness enhancements for the HP), THF, Improved THF, Toughness (make up for lack of shield) and Improved Evasion. Unbuffed AC will drop by 7 to a pitiful 29, but gain 14 HP and loose +1 to attack. Plus, picked up +1d6 to sneak attack, making it +5d6

HP 285
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Saves: 12\10\4 (were 14\12\3 with ranger lvls)
UMD will drop to 19 (maxed out)
Diplo 21 (maxed out)
Balance 19

[dragons1ayer74]

If you do find a +15 diplo item you should end up with a very good diplomacy, because their are also the other buffs...

Luck, GH, etc and even if your not buffed you will still be making lots of succefull checks.

[GrayOldDruid]

If you do find a +15 diplo item you should end up with a very good diplomacy, because their are also the other buffs...

Luck, GH, etc and even if your not buffed you will still be making lots of succefull checks.

He is now 4/4 Fighter/Rogue and it is a blast running into the middle of a mob, Cleave - get all the aggro - Diplo - they start to turn away, cleave - bring them right back - diplo, they start to turn away - Cleave - bring them back. They don't get much of a chance to swing. Rogue is next level.

Still seriously considering the Ranger levels - especially since the level cap is going up and he has some more levels to play with.

11 Rogue / 6 Fighter / 3 Ranger - Gets up to 6d6 Sneak attack, 1 more bonus fighter feat, Favored Enemy, Diehard.
11 Rogue / 4 Fighter / 5 Ranger - Gets up to 6d6 Sneak attack, diehard, Ram's Might and Second Favored Enemy.
16 Rogue / 4 Fighter ? 8d6 sneak attack, Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, Crippling strike, Skillz points!!