Loot for you too

[darkrune]

Most people in the game and specifically our server play by the "your loot is your loot" rule since the nerf bat hit the warded chest meaning you can do whatever you want with it. The problem that many people have with raids is that the still expect to get raid loot every time they run a raid. This is just not ever going to happen. I have been very lucky in the amount of raid loot that I have pulled both pre and post the warded chest Nerf. I have been in groups and continue to go in groups that duo or short man raids ( Reaver DQ Titan especially) just to increase the completion count to get that one item or tome that you need.

Basically I never expect to get raid loot, although am very happy when i do. If you calculate the overall number i would say that the 1 in 6 rule is pretty accurate in that if you run 6 elite runs there will be an opportunity for you to get one item. The last thing that i can suggest is that unless it is your 20th completion never expect an item to drop for you and you will be pleasantly surprised when you get one or someone allows you to roll or hands you one.

hope this clarifies my earlier post as well

Dark

[Merkinsal]

The rationale is simple to me, even a cliche. Everyone participated and contributed to enable the raid to happen and succeed yada yada. So, everyone gets a fair shot. The first fair shots are the loot table odds. There is not anything we can do about that, but after that we can get civilized imho. The all for me and my buddies attitude doesn't wash with me. That in fact sounds alot like the me first attitude of the younger generation. There's no Ask what you can do for your country, not for what your country can do for you attitude there. For those of us who have served in the armed forces, and whose parents, grandparents, and so forth did the same, we didn't, at least I didn't, do it for what the country could do for me. I kind of carry that into the rest of my life. As for my daughter in college, I have raised her and let her know many people feel special rules apply to them and their own, and that is not "wrong", just the way many people are. We all get to make choices. I however was under the false impression this game had a mature and older wiser crowd. Appears I am mistaken, at least in part. Thank you guys for listing your guilds.

[Higgy]

Merkinsal - have you RUN the Reaver with 12 people? Because 9 of those people probably DID NOT contribute to the success of the raid! The tank, the healer and the crowd-controller did. The others stayed out of the way.

Other raids, it's different, sure. However, I can't believe you liken playing this game to the patriotic theme of "Ask not what your country can do for you..." Are you serious? It's a GAME, man!

Also - I'm 38 - not sure if that counts as the younger generation for you or not. Why not go to the other forums and pose the same question? I'll take bets you get the same spread of responses.

I generally run with my guildies more than other folks. Why? I LIKE MY GUILDIES. I joined them for a reason. They make playing this game MORE FUN! If I pull loot - and any loot, not just raid loot - that I can't use and they can - absolutely positively am I giving it to them first.

[Merkinsal]

Merkinsal - have you RUN the Reaver with 12 people? Because 9 of those people probably DID NOT contribute to the success of the raid! The tank, the healer and the crowd-controller did. The others stayed out of the way.

Other raids, it's different, sure. However, I can't believe you liken playing this game to the patriotic theme of "Ask not what your country can do for you..." Are you serious? It's a GAME, man!

Also - I'm 38 - not sure if that counts as the younger generation for you or not. Why not go to the other forums and pose the same question? I'll take bets you get the same spread of responses.

I generally run with my guildies more than other folks. Why? I LIKE MY GUILDIES. I joined them for a reason. They make playing this game MORE FUN! If I pull loot - and any loot, not just raid loot - that I can't use and they can - absolutely positively am I giving it to them first.

Since you brought it up. I know you do. I've seen you guys do it. And yes, principles are pretty much principles. Fair is fair.

[Merkinsal]

Since you brought it up. I know you do. I've seen you guys do it. And yes, principles are pretty much principles. Fair is fair.

And, no, I didn't say anything or raise a stink. No point. But that is the game, and this is not. This is where people state and share their views and opinions, and at worst agree to disagree.

[Ringos]

Lol. This is one good thread!

First of all, someone has a case of selctive reading. One of my earlier posts indicated that I HAVE actually put up a +3 tome for a roll in a PUG. I even dismissed offers from some people that made them, since I enjoy passing something that good along to someone who can use it if I can't.

Secondly, I indicated that there are a LOT of people that would pass a +3 tome to a guildie in the group before putting it up for a roll. Read my post again. I didn't say that was or was not me...you assumed.

Finally, I wouldn't expect someone that comes here, makes ridiculous statements and threatens to blacklist people to actually have to stand behind what they say. I post my alts and guild in my sig because I'll gladly stand behind what I post.

[darkrune]

The rationale is simple to me, even a cliche. Everyone participated and contributed to enable the raid to happen and succeed yada yada. So, everyone gets a fair shot. The first fair shots are the loot table odds. There is not anything we can do about that, but after that we can get civilized imho. The all for me and my buddies attitude doesn't wash with me. That in fact sounds alot like the me first attitude of the younger generation. There's no Ask what you can do for your country, not for what your country can do for you attitude there. For those of us who have served in the armed forces, and whose parents, grandparents, and so forth did the same, we didn't, at least I didn't, do it for what the country could do for me. I kind of carry that into the rest of my life. As for my daughter in college, I have raised her and let her know many people feel special rules apply to them and their own, and that is not "wrong", just the way many people are. We all get to make choices. I however was under the false impression this game had a mature and older wiser crowd. Appears I am mistaken, at least in part. Thank you guys for listing your guilds.

This post just killed what was a rather interesting thread... I CANNOT believe that you just compared DDO to the armed forces and people that have and continue to either give the ultimate sacrifice or at minimum put their bodies in harms way to allow us the freedom to whine about not getting raid loot in a GAME ONLINE!!!!!!!!!!

Reality check time... getting raid loot denied from you because I or someone else gives it to a guildie has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on your REAL LIFE... If you are so upset that you have to insult me and the others by questioning our morals you might want to switch to decaf or maybe just leave the game entirely cause WOW this is a special kind of stupid post...

As for your post above questioning the attitude of the "younger" generation... I will take the high road and just leave that alone and point out once again that this is a game...

WOW!

JUST WOW!

Dark

[Ringos]

I don't know...but when I was in the military, you always hooked up your buddies first!

[Merkinsal]

Lol. This is one good thread!

First of all, someone has a case of selctive reading. One of my earlier posts indicated that I HAVE actually put up a +3 tome for a roll in a PUG. I even dismissed offers from some people that made them, since I enjoy passing something that good along to someone who can use it if I can't.

Secondly, I indicated that there are a LOT of people that would pass a +3 tome to a guildie in the group before putting it up for a roll. Read my post again. I didn't say that was or was not me...you assumed.

Finally, I wouldn't expect someone that comes here, makes ridiculous statements and threatens to blacklist people to actually have to stand behind what they say. I post my alts and guild in my sig because I'll gladly stand behind what I post.

First, I specifically said I did not think you thought that way and asked if you did, so as not to misunderstand your statement.

Second, I missed your post about the +3 tome but still said I did not think you would exclude raid members from loot. I specifically said I did not think you thought that way.

Third, a black list is a secret list excluding people for real or imagined offenses with out their knowledge. I didn't say I was going to black list any guilds. In fact, I personally put up all loot for a roll that I can not use on the character I am playing at that moment. I was and am interested in the guilds who have rules excluding pug members from raid loot so I will know their polcies in advance and know not to join their raids. In effect, blacklisting myself from their pugs so they don't have to.

[darkrune]

I was and am interested in the guilds who have rules excluding pug members from raid loot so I will know their polcies in advance and know not to join their raids. In effect, blacklisting myself from their pugs so they don't have to.

Just because you give to guidies first you are not excluding pugs from loot there are two ways to get raid loot...

you can still get the loot that you earn... you can still get any loot that anyone else gives you...

just because I chose to give my loot to a guildie effects the pug how? it is MY loot to do whatever with just as YOUR loot is yours to do whatever...

This is my last post as I am growing increasingly upset with the idiotic comment above.

Good day

dark

[Merkinsal]

This post just killed what was a rather interesting thread... I CANNOT believe that you just compared DDO to the armed forces and people that have and continue to either give the ultimate sacrifice or at minimum put their bodies in harms way to allow us the freedom to whine about not getting raid loot in a GAME ONLINE!!!!!!!!!!

Reality check time... getting raid loot denied from you because I or someone else gives it to a guildie has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on your REAL LIFE... If you are so upset that you have to insult me and the others by questioning our morals you might want to switch to decaf or maybe just leave the game entirely cause WOW this is a special kind of stupid post...

As for your post above questioning the attitude of the "younger" generation... I will take the high road and just leave that alone and point out once again that this is a game...

WOW!

JUST WOW!

Dark

Yeah, I couldn't believe I was writing it either. But, you know, the game is not the place to throw all your morals out the window. Why would a gang mentality be ok in the game but not anywhere else? Before you jump on that, I'll define gang mentality as a group who makes their own rules, put themselves over all others, and abides by no other authority. So, because it's a game online a guild can cut a pug out of the spoils without letting them know before hand? Obviously the younger generation is not all me me me. There are exceptions. But it is going down in history at that way and I did not come up with that and this looks like that to me. I would challenge you to show your "morals" in the game and treat everyone fairly, whether in your gang or not.

[Merkinsal]

I don't know...but when I was in the military, you always hooked up your buddies first!

I have to say yes. But if there's one beer left and you and someone who was invited both reached for it at the same time, I don't believe you would tell them they could not have it. Even if everyone around were you friends, or you were bigger, or stronger, or prettier >_>. You would say here, take it, I've had enough or something I would bet.

[Merkinsal]

I want to apologize to everyone. This was poorly executed.

Yes I was burned in a raid. Yes it was a big freaking surprise. When I saw the post putting guildees first I overreacted. I play the game with the same values I always have had, and they are pretty simple. The game is no different. I am a pretty selfish person and a selfish player but fair none the less. I try to be better. I give tomes away and whatever.

What is true, is that the prior loot system was abolished for good reason. Yet, nothing can prevent the same thing from continuing on a smaller scale. I certainly can not, yet I tried anyway. So, shoot me.

[Astria]

The important thing to remember in all this is that it is just a game, and while the play styles of some may not always agree with you, it is part of the game. Just like getting along with people is part of life. I personally fall under the thought in morality that establishing a relationship with someone creates a greater obligation to that person. For example, if you are a parent, and you have your child, and another child you've never seen before in a life-threatening situation...you can only save one, who do you save? Most people will save their own child....and this would be acceptable to society because the notion exists that the parent-child relationship creates a greater obligation between people than strangers have. In DDO's case, and in the case of many other MMOs, there is a notion that guild members have an obligation to one another that is larger than the obligation they have to some person they just partied with today. While I do fall under the idea that it is acceptable to put guildies first, I certainly won't complain if people want to start giving me shots at raid loot :-)

[WorldTraveler]

I've posted a similar point in another thread about people upset that somebody didn't give them their raid loot for free. What amazes me is the audacity of people in other threads like these (us Thelanites seem to be of a majorly different mindset than Argonessen) who shame people for not freely giving up their raid loot when they actually call them people the greedy ones. Aside from the entire point about whether or not somebody's character can use an item being a sound judgement when nobody can really know that without knowing all about their build or change plans, I cannot wrap my mind around how all such people complaining don't see the obvious that they are the ones greedy when they demand a +3 tome or other rare raid gear go to them or someone on roll for nothing. All I've ever seen that comes close to an argument to support this backwards notion is the feeble claim that "it would only fetch a petty amount of gold sold to a vendor" as if this properly defines that items true "value". It's like on the one hand they are willing to say, "It takes a large commitment of time and effort and often times resources from all players to get a chance at these things, and even then we all know the loot gods screw us more often than not," as though to defend the items in question as being very precious, but on the other hand, when trying to support their greedy attitude that they should get it for free, all of the sudden all the puller's time and effort, all of the clerics scrolls or the repair bills for multiple deaths, or just all of the same from the last umpteen runs where all they got were them d*mn tokens don't matter, and it's only worth vendor price. It is not. What's more, they know d*mn well it's not cause in the same breath, they use that very argument.

But let's just forget that for the moment and look at the real "value" of the item argument (or at least their flipflop side when arguing it next to worthless
for the puller). If a +2 tome is less value for someone that can use it than the same +3 tome, then in terms of how much it can give to a character who
can use it argument, can't I demand you put that +2 tome that isn't bound up for roll as in my uninformed judgement based on what I see of your build,
you can't have a greater use for it than me. No!?!? Why not? Oh, cause you can pass it on to one of your characters who can get the +2 benefit from
it? OK, that makes perfect sense. The value of that +2 tome to a character who can use it is established. Understand. Now if someone puts a +3
tome up for auction to people who can use it, the value to their characters is even greater. So if thats true, then why isn't the +3 tome's value in gold
terms more than a +2 tome on auction? Or look at it the other way around, if you wanna argue that it is worthless, and should be free, then since it's
more valuable in use to other character terms, then can I have a free +2 tome? If I asked you for one or a vorpal for free that you had on the auction
house, and then called you greedy and said I'd blacklist you cause you didn't want to give me one free or at vendor price, then how could you possibly
say I'm wrong? You wouldn't dare say, "It's mine and I can do what I want with it even though I obviously ain't gonna use it," as being on auction
indicates. No, that argument is anti-social and you'd deserve to be ostracised for actually expecting something proportionate to the items real value.
So what would you say? I want a free +2 tome d*mnit! I know you pulled it, but you have it on auction, why don't you let me and anyone else that
can use one just roll for it, and it better be free. Can you honestly sit there and say that doesn't sound greedy? I mean, I know you worked hard for it,
but how dare you expect recompense for that effort when you don't plan on using it! In the end, the only way you can defend asking for anything in
sale or trade for unbound items is if you understand that an items value is NOT equal to it's vendor price, but it's demand, as in all market economies.
So something like raid loot or +3 tomes are way more valuable than just vendor price, and d*mn sure more valuable than free. That is the way it is, or
else their wouldn't be whole servers full of people willing to blow their money and time running and rerunning the raids to get em.

So back to reality then, these things are very high value, and so when someone who decides they can't or won't use one puts one up for auction, how
utterly and insensitively greedy is it for someone to insist that they ought to get it for free?! I have been offered a piece of raid loot that someone
judged that I could use. I took it, and though he didn't sell it to me, I had the decency to ask him how much he wanted for it. I guess if I were of the
other mindset that expects free handouts, I could've just taken it and slept easy at night not bothered in the least, secure in my certainty that this is
what he d*mn well should have done in the first place and that he wasn't one of them "greedy people" who dare to expect some recompense for THEIR
time and effort that got me my free valueless raid gear when all I got were tokens. Thank god I'm not greedy like that, though when I ever pull any raid
gear or a +3 tome I can't use and ask if anyone that can really use it wants to make offers or trades, I will be greedy all of the sudden in some people's
minds. Unless they decide to unbind them at some future time, then I'll be cool again in expecting to sell it off at some price that fairly approximates it's
real "value". Ironically, though I asked him what he wanted for it (before taking it, mind you, in case he actually did name a price that I couldn't afford
or was unwilling to pay. That way I could return it back to his name), he said nothing. Meaning that in a raid, a person of my clearly greedy nature and
a person who would be endorsed/patted on the back/not blacklisted by the those who make this ridiculously a*s-backwards claim met, and our different
attitudes did not interfere in the fun or play at all. I have no problem with people that want to give things they could make money on away for free
doing so. I've given money to new players just to help out too. What I really have a problem with is people who expect it and who then maintain the
double standard of hypocrite if they have ever dared to put anything up on auction house or in the trade forum rather than offering all their valuable
things to other players who could use them for free or for roll. If you win a roll, offer the person something or ask what they want anyway. If they
insist they want nothing, fine. But at least be decent enough to value their time and effort contributing to the run's success, yes even the PUGS.

[Shyver]

Holy wall of text batman!!!

[DaveyCrockett]

Holy wall of text batman!!!

lmao

[WorldTraveler]

Yeah, I suppose I could break that up into a few paragraphs at least to make it a bit easier to follow. True dat.
Think I'll edit a wee bit. Sorry about the eye doctor bills from eye strain reading through it. Just had an unusual
moment of strong feelings about how some people seem to be so greedy and not see it and daring to call others
what they are. Got me going. I'll break that up a bit.

[Thrudh]

I have to say yes. But if there's one beer left and you and someone who was invited both reached for it at the same time, I don't believe you would tell them they could not have it. Even if everyone around were you friends, or you were bigger, or stronger, or prettier >_>. You would say here, take it, I've had enough or something I would bet.

Well if it was last piece of pizza maybe... but beer???

[Ringos]

No worries Merk.