Shroud healing

[Blazer]

Now, I maxed Wisdom throughout creation, I got the totemic lavalier (spelling), and I am sitting at 1490. How the $%^& do people get up so **** high. If it is crafting, then I have no clue about it. I have even heard of sorcs with 2500 sp. My 15 is sitting at 1650. What the heck am I doing wrong???? Maxed Primary stat the whole way through on all toons. The only raids I can do is the Reaver because Pugging for other Raids/flagging is almost impossible lol.

Crafting coupled with higher end items. My poor unlucky cleric is still sitting at 32 WIS but has 1690 SP (Hound necklace is WIZ VI, shroud crafted item with a bonus 150 SP on it).

[shane1122]

Now, I maxed Wisdom throughout creation, I got the totemic lavalier (spelling), and I am sitting at 1490. How the $%^& do people get up so **** high. If it is crafting, then I have no clue about it. I have even heard of sorcs with 2500 sp. My 15 is sitting at 1650. What the heck am I doing wrong???? Maxed Primary stat the whole way through on all toons. The only raids I can do is the Reaver because Pugging for other Raids/flagging is almost impossible lol.

As others pointed out crafting is part of it, actually 2/3s. You need
1) Wis +3 Tome
2) Wiz 6/+50/+100 crafted item for +300 SP.
3) Crafted weapon for an additional +3 Wis

That should up your Wis by +6 and add an additional 300 SP to boot.

The new Raids have caused some adjustment as the Hound Necklace has Wiz 6 and +6 Wis. Some clerics are thus replacing their spell point item with a new first tier upgrade (say +6 to a Stat or +10 HP). I switched to +6 Con to free the belt slot for a GFL item and to get BOLAS for +3 AC, +3 saves and +11 balance. The +3 AC for Bolas also stacks with the combo bonus for the Hound bracers/shield (+3 insight). For me, upgrading from the Madstone Shield increased my AC: +3 Bolas and +3 insight for +6 AC total while also increasing DR from 6 to 15!

I have to disagree with the PUGing comment. I have a great Guild but am in South Africa so very few are on when I am. I have PUGed about 99% of Raids I have completed and those at far from peak US play times. Thank goodness for DDO Korea as I run with them alot. Of course I am often the only non-Korean speaker in the Raid.
-Shane

[maddmatt70]

If there's only 1 cleric and the party went 3 rounds on part 4 of the shroud....

-There may have been a lot of support healing toons (Sorcs/Bards/Rogues/UMDers)
-Maybe a lot of the group was ranging (and not high dps ranged)

If there were 8-10 melees in there and it took 3 rounds....seems to be way too many rounds. So there were probably secondary healers which can do a lot of healing. Or some of the melees died in that run. A lot easier to extend your healing if you're only healing 1-2 melees.

I'm also assuming the cleric was alternating scrolls and mana. Even mass healing a round on my cleric I'm probably at 40%+ mana after 1 round if there's decently high hp toons (or very good AC toons) in there.

All the other runs were pretty quick either 2 rounds or maybe a 1 rounder or two. The 3 rounder was unsual in that there were alot of casual players who probably had poor weapons.

[feynman]

IMHO, there are 4 ways to do the shroud:

1) 3 clerics, 2 casters, at least 6 DPS (easiest)
2) 2 clerics, 1 bard, 1 caster, at least 4 DPS (safest)
3) 1 cleric, 1 bard, 1 caster, 9 DPS (fastest)
4) wrong

I am really more flexible than that, but having healed and DPS'd all 4 kinds of groups, I have my preferences, you know?

[moops]

To OP
What meta magics are you using to give oomph to your Mass Heals?
If you do not use Empower Healing, but use Empower or Maximize, or both, you will burn through SP faster than a cleric with Empower Healing. I know some nervous cleric who use both Empower and Maximize, and yes they are over healing and wasting SP.

Also, the amount of SP you use will also depend on the amount of people with Evaision who are meleeing, and if the party is taking their own fire pro pots. And to some extent, depending on group, if you have the highest DPS at the Fiends head while others flank or are behind quite a few will take less damage, but now that more people have crafted their mineral 2s or are carrying the right Pit Fiend weapons, this isn't always the case, but in these groups the Fiend is going to go down in 2 rounds tops anyway.

I have 2 level 16 clerics, and I have 1520, and 1545 SP with crafted items ( a few more if I remember to equip Wis Insight sceptre). I have empower Healing, and I do not blow through SP as fast as others--cept when I am experimenting I also use cure mass mod scrolls, maybe only 10 a run, but it helps. I do not usually have quicken on.

Except for some really low DPS pugs, my Measily 1500 SPs have been enough. Because both my clerics are necro focused they have their life and crit lines maxed out. I do crit alot with heals, though it is not something I rely on. Also alot of people I run with have some kind of healing bonus.

My runs usually have at least 7 melee and only 2 clerics, because that is how I set them up, I prefer more melee and use less SP for Melee heavy runs.

For the most part I only run with Clerics I know, and we prefer to mass heal because its cheaper to keep 7, 8 or 9 melee alive that way. We take turns with the mass heals, and 1 will spot heal if there is someone taking a heavy beating--this I think is key, because then other cleric doesn't have to throw a mass heal just for the 1 or possibly 2 tanks that are LOW HP and taking a beating. Usually the first cleric to throw mass heals will end with 50% mana at the end of first round, and we usually both finish with SP.

If I am the only cleric in Shroud, the fiend is going to go down in one round, maybe 1.5 at the most, otherwise I will stick out for another cleric.

[Thrudh]

Okay... OP here... here's my guy... 15/1 Cleric/Paladin... 1480 SP

I use Maximize (also for blade barriers), I don't have Empower Healing... Mass cure mods cost 70 SP each and heal about 90... Mass cure serious costs 75 SP each and heal about 110... I have a Greater Pot VII item (for the mass cure serious).. I do have the gloves from the Reaver and the crit enhancements so I crit fairly often (15%? 18%?) for double healing....

Heals land for 270... and I always have a couple of stacks of Heal scrolls...

I've never used the mass cure mod scrolls before... so I bought some today... I'm not impressed... they hit for around 30 hps... (I have the wand/scroll enhancement to Tier III)...

I'll have to work on my timing more... I think my problem is that I cast too early and too often... I hate to see anyone get too low in part 4 though... dead is permanent in there as you all know...

All I know is... I can keep 2 people up with zero problems alternating between the heal spell and the heal scroll... And I don't use a lot of SP that way... If there are 6 melee going in, and we have 3 clerics, I always prefer each of us take 2... that NEVER fails, even on a low DPS group... 4-5 rounds, and I still have SP...

But most people today (and you guys on these forums as well) say that mass healing is more efficient... But I always blow through 80% of my SP when mass healing after one round... again, probably because I overheal too much... and if we have a low DPS group, that means serious trouble...

I will work on my technique more, and see if I can do it better... thanks for the feedback

[maddmatt70]

It is definitely worth the time to improve your mass healing skills. Mass Cure spells are definitely in vogue in the new raids and will likely become even more important with the probable 9th level spell mass heal. In VOD mass healing also is very efficient and it is so hard to get clerics for the quest that the more efficient a group with mass cure spells the better of the group will be.

[stockwizard5]

Priest runs Max/Emp - Remember there are enhancements/items that can lower the cost.

I also stick with Cure Moderate Mass (+50&#37 and cycle Cure Serious Mass (+30%) if needed. As a battle Cleric Priest has 1500 SP which is more than enough for 1+ rounds in part 4 and all of part 5.

[Angelus_dead]

I do have the gloves from the Reaver and the crit enhancements so I crit fairly often (15%? 18%?) for double healing....

Heals land for 270... and I always have a couple of stacks of Heal scrolls...

Note that a crit on a Heal spell is probably wasted, but if your MCMW has an 18% chance to crit for double, that's as if the spell had a flat 18% power increase. So instead of MCMW giving you 1.44 hp/sp, it instead gets 1.69.

[Aranticus]

This should be the norm. Some good advice above, also...

1) Spell points. A lvl 16 cleric should be in the 1700-1800 range. I am amazed at the number of lvl 16 clerics out there that have far, far less.

dun assume all clerics have a tier3 and +2/+3 tome. my latest human cleric is just under 1500 sp at L16 w/o any of these

2) Turn on empowered healing and mass heal away. The Hound Necklace helps a bit to conserve SP. Spot heal between mass heals with scrolls of Heal.

again dun assume all clerics have the empowered healing enhancements as well as the hound necklace. not all clerics are built to healbot

3) Do not try to keep everyone at 100% HP. It is a waste of SP. Keep everyone at 75-80% so "bleed over" (such as on a crit) healing on is not just wasted. A good tank knows what you are doing and is still comfortable with 75-80% of their HP.

it really depends on the hp of the melees, 75% of a 400 hp toon is 300, 75% of a 300 hp toon is 225%

4) Have the proper equipment, mainly Sup Pot/Dev and Reaver gloves, and enhancements so that you are mainly casting low level healing spells, but to impressive effect.

yes these items are now easy to get

5) Avoid doomed PUGs. You know, the one with four sorcs, three rogues, and four monks... Shroud PUGs need serious DPS. That means hard hitting Barbs/Palis/Rangers/Fighters. Although there are some exceptions, that 7/6/3 Pali/Ranger/Sorc will eat more resources than they are worth in the Shroud.

again assumptions based on your limited idea of what works and what not. DPS doesnt really come from the class. i've done shroud with all pallys (no fighters, no barbs) and we took down the fiend in 2 passes. i've done it with all barbs and took 4-5 passes. gear is the most important aspect in shroud then class. a weapon that can bypass the DR is most important

-Shane

see replies

[Aranticus]

Okay... OP here... here's my guy... 15/1 Cleric/Paladin... 1480 SP

I use Maximize (also for blade barriers), I don't have Empower Healing... Mass cure mods cost 70 SP each and heal about 90... Mass cure serious costs 75 SP each and heal about 110... I have a Greater Pot VII item (for the mass cure serious).. I do have the gloves from the Reaver and the crit enhancements so I crit fairly often (15%? 18%?) for double healing....

all my clerics are built to blade barrier. never use maximise or empower to heal with mass cure, its very inefficient and eats up your sp real quick. instead, cycle between scroll, mclw, scroll, mcmw,..... this provides ample healing to keep one alive. if their hp is not low, just use scrolls

Heals land for 270... and I always have a couple of stacks of Heal scrolls...

I've never used the mass cure mod scrolls before... so I bought some today... I'm not impressed... they hit for around 30 hps... (I have the wand/scroll enhancement to Tier III)...

they are for topping up, if u need to heal a hugh hp, then use heal spell. its important for the melees to spread around the fiend so that they dun get the cleave damage all at once

I'll have to work on my timing more... I think my problem is that I cast too early and too often... I hate to see anyone get too low in part 4 though... dead is permanent in there as you all know...

find out how many hp the melees have, most melees should have >350 if they do not have evasion

All I know is... I can keep 2 people up with zero problems alternating between the heal spell and the heal scroll... And I don't use a lot of SP that way... If there are 6 melee going in, and we have 3 clerics, I always prefer each of us take 2... that NEVER fails, even on a low DPS group... 4-5 rounds, and I still have SP...

But most people today (and you guys on these forums as well) say that mass healing is more efficient... But I always blow through 80% of my SP when mass healing after one round... again, probably because I overheal too much... and if we have a low DPS group, that means serious trouble...

part of the reason is maximise

I will work on my technique more, and see if I can do it better... thanks for the feedback

i have done solo heal as well (had no umd sorc, a melee warchanter bard). its important to determine a guy to focus your healing on, whoever is meleeing the fiend will have to stay close to get the heals. most of the time, deaths are due to people chickening out and leaving the safety net of the mass cure spells. when that happen, they get no heals and by the time you throw him a heal, a fireball got that guy

during the passes, i generally heal using scrolls. only when some 1 drops by 50% or more will i toss a heal. at harry, the melees have a part to play. anyone w/o evasion n has less than 300 hp is more of a liability than an asset to the group. such a player would constant require attention. i usually stick a transparency to my monitor for me to mark out the safety hp level. when a player drops below that level, then i'll burst heal. if not i'll scroll. i usually set it to 150 hp (save on a dbfb), hp % is not a reliable count as the totals are different

it is important to communicate especially when the blades are coming in. usually if 50%, i'll let them melee through, else they pull out. when they pull out, the should do so as a group to the same direction so that mass heals can still get everyone but this can be risky for some

[Aranticus]

IMHO, there are 4 ways to do the shroud:

1) 3 clerics, 2 casters, at least 6 DPS (easiest)
2) 2 clerics, 1 bard, 1 caster, at least 4 DPS (safest)
3) 1 cleric, 1 bard, 1 caster, 9 DPS (fastest)
4) wrong

I am really more flexible than that, but having healed and DPS'd all 4 kinds of groups, I have my preferences, you know?

a bard is almost a must for an easy group. the +6 to damage is very helpful

[moops]

As you can see from my numbers it costs you about 30 sp more to cast mass heals than me, although you do get some more kick.

My numbers with Empower Healing and only 1 empower heal enhancement, no Lorriks, Superior Pot 6 and all other maxed enahncements. Others results might vary depending on luck, all these are numbers b4 any crits.

Cure Mass Light 39sp - average 65
Cure Mass Mod 44sp - average 80

I mostly use those and rarely use Cure Serious--but I spot heal with Cure Mass Mod scrolls whch aren't the greatest but are suffiecient for between rounds and a touch up here and there.

Cure Mass Serious - 49 sp - average 85 ( i use greater potency 7 )

I dont use cure serious as much because I prefer to keep Sup 6 in one hand and heal scrolls or mod scroll in the other, and in most groups this is fine. If I am in a high damage situation, I duel wild Sup Pot 6 and Great Pot 7.

Okay... OP here... here's my guy... 15/1 Cleric/Paladin... 1480 SP

I use Maximize (also for blade barriers), I don't have Empower Healing... Mass cure mods cost 70 SP each and heal about 90... Mass cure serious costs 75 SP each and heal about 110... I have a Greater Pot VII item (for the mass cure serious).. I do have the gloves from the Reaver and the crit enhancements so I crit fairly often (15%? 18%?) for double healing....

Heals land for 270... and I always have a couple of stacks of Heal scrolls...

I've never used the mass cure mod scrolls before... so I bought some today... I'm not impressed... they hit for around 30 hps... (I have the wand/scroll enhancement to Tier III)...

I'll have to work on my timing more... I think my problem is that I cast too early and too often... I hate to see anyone get too low in part 4 though... dead is permanent in there as you all know...

All I know is... I can keep 2 people up with zero problems alternating between the heal spell and the heal scroll... And I don't use a lot of SP that way... If there are 6 melee going in, and we have 3 clerics, I always prefer each of us take 2... that NEVER fails, even on a low DPS group... 4-5 rounds, and I still have SP...

But most people today (and you guys on these forums as well) say that mass healing is more efficient... But I always blow through 80% of my SP when mass healing after one round... again, probably because I overheal too much... and if we have a low DPS group, that means serious trouble...

I will work on my technique more, and see if I can do it better... thanks for the feedback

[shane1122]

1) Spell points. A lvl 16 cleric should be in the 1700-1800 range. I am amazed at the number of lvl 16 clerics out there that have far, far less.

dun assume all clerics have a tier3 and +2/+3 tome. my latest human cleric is just under 1500 sp at L16 w/o any of these

2) Turn on empowered healing and mass heal away. The Hound Necklace helps a bit to conserve SP. Spot heal between mass heals with scrolls of Heal.

again dun assume all clerics have the empowered healing enhancements as well as the hound necklace. not all clerics are built to healbot

Aranticus, look at the OP. He is asking how a Cleric can solo heal the Shroud and have spare mana after part 4. I am not saying that everyone needs the above kit or assuming they have it. I am just pointing out that a cleric that has mana to spare (as mine usually does) very likely has the above gear and enhancements/feats. A cleric with 1500 sp and no empowered healing is not very likely to be sitting on 400-500 SP at the end of Shroud pt 4 when they are the only cleric in the raid group.
-Shane

[maddmatt70]

Note that a crit on a Heal spell is probably wasted, but if your MCMW has an 18% chance to crit for double, that's as if the spell had a flat 18% power increase. So instead of MCMW giving you 1.44 hp/sp, it instead gets 1.69.

I think the mathematical model is more complex then what you put forth. After all what of the scenarios when you cast a MCMW where a couple of people in a group need the healing, but where several other members of the melee group only have small damage so one mass spell is sufficient for them but it crits on of them or a crit doesn't help them. Another scenario is since 18% crit only occurs a small % of the time on one of the group members you will still need to cast a second mass cure spell to heal the other group members. The second scenario invalidates the crit enhancements for healing for non damage spell uses. You are not saving any mana really even if you get a crit on part member 1 because party member 2 and 3 still need another mass cure. The crit enhancements are nice on the beholder from Ghosts of Perdition, but its use as a healing mana saver is not worth the cost of the clerical enhancements.

[Kurlore]

It takes many pots....or the last shroud solo cleric we had he used 45 pots =[

[Aranticus]

Aranticus, look at the OP. He is asking how a Cleric can solo heal the Shroud and have spare mana after part 4. I am not saying that everyone needs the above kit or assuming they have it. I am just pointing out that a cleric that has mana to spare (as mine usually does) very likely has the above gear and enhancements/feats. A cleric with 1500 sp and no empowered healing is not very likely to be sitting on 400-500 SP at the end of Shroud pt 4 when they are the only cleric in the raid group.
-Shane

I am amazed at the number of lvl 16 clerics out there that have far, far less.

i agree with most of the later parts of your "suggestions" but which part of his question are you answering with this remark?

[maddmatt70]

Let me just give the OP a few more tips.

Regarding mass cure scrolls you can upgrade the mass cure scrolls with scroll mastery enhancements. This is a very good idea and I recommend at least the 2nd enhancement if not the 3rd or 4th depending on your build. I use scrolls alot of times as toppers. I top people off when their red bards are a little down, but don't use spells. This is not always the cheapest strategy, but if you need to conserve mana and don't want to drink a mana pot down the road sometimes it is a good strategy. In the shroud I use scroll alot less these days of course because there is no need, but in VOD I live on the stuff.

I am very biased towards empower healing. I like it alot. I had the max clerical enhancements in it in like mod 4. I never take it off. The necklace from the hound makes this style even stronger. Alot of clerics have maximize and empower for their bb and have elected to go without empower healing. The good clerics who have this build have a more conservative mana approach. They will typically have maximize and empower on alot, but will cast a mass spell when their targets health has gone down lower then me and thus preserve mana efficiency and they use toppers. Another type of cleric style is to not use toppers, but have empower healing and do a similar mana approach to the maximize/empower style. Healing definitely has several styles that can be successful, but I have to say that bb is not a hugely important spell this mod. It just is not really needed in the content so if I were a maximize/empower cleric I would quite honestly consider dropping empower and picking up empower healing. I have always felt you have to be willing to adapt to whatever is in a particular mod and in Mod 7 VOD is pro the empower healing style most definitely.

[seldarin]

This should be the norm. Some good advice above, also...

1) Spell points. A lvl 16 cleric should be in the 1700-1800 range. I am amazed at the number of lvl 16 clerics out there that have far, far less.
2) Turn on empowered healing and mass heal away. The Hound Necklace helps a bit to conserve SP. Spot heal between mass heals with scrolls of Heal.
3) Do not try to keep everyone at 100% HP. It is a waste of SP. Keep everyone at 75-80% so "bleed over" (such as on a crit) healing on is not just wasted. A good tank knows what you are doing and is still comfortable with 75-80% of their HP.
4) Have the proper equipment, mainly Sup Pot/Dev and Reaver gloves, and enhancements so that you are mainly casting low level healing spells, but to impressive effect.
5) Avoid doomed PUGs. You know, the one with four sorcs, three rogues, and four monks... Shroud PUGs need serious DPS. That means hard hitting Barbs/Palis/Rangers/Fighters. Although there are some exceptions, that 7/6/3 Pali/Ranger/Sorc will eat more resources than they are worth in the Shroud.

-Shane

Hmmmmmm, saying that a lvl 16 cleric should be in the 1700-1800 sp range is taking a few things for granted isnt it? Or making the statement that all clerics should be the same. I didnt max wisdom at creation, started on 16, went with a spread of stats including charisma. Saying a lvl 16 cleric should have 1700-1800 spell pts is like saying a cleric should have DVs, individual builds differ. Granted i dont have a tier III sp item, only tier II, therefore my spell pts are only 1615, and that is with the hound ring, but even so 1700 shouldnt be considered a benchmark for whether or not you are a decently built cleric.

Dont forget Hound ring gives WIZ VII, something to consider

I would have to disagree on the idea of doomed pugs too. A good party leader will work a quest around a group, rather than the group around a quest. IE rather than, must have 6 tanks, 2 clerics, 2 casters, 1 bard (warchanter) and something else, work with what you have and adjust accordingly. That is almost like saying if a quest doesnt have a trap you dont get rogue. Rogues do far more than just disable traps. Bit of adjusted thinking regarding group construction and toon abilities wouldnt go astray.

[sultro]

i agree with most of the later parts of your "suggestions" but which part of his question are you answering with this remark?

he's not, he's saying your answer was unreasonable. and that perhaps op should take it with a grain of salt.

I doubt that I'm the only person that created a cleric before he understood the difference between ddo and pnp. and i also doubt that everyone rerolled them once they figured out how bad a 14 or 16 starting wisdom was. the question was how does a normal person do this, not powergamer. I will not solo heal the shroud unless i plan ahead that i will burn through pots. and i'm not likely to play my cleric in vod until the level cap goes up(sorry maddmatt, its too expensive and too many unreasonable expectations).

I've always been one of those that said clerics should stop whining about the cost and improve their play. i almost always had sp's left/ shrines available until i hit top end quests on elite(even with my gimpy cleric). then you bite the bullet and use pots/scrolls. thats just not true anymore. if you don't have top gear/32 pt solid build your not gonna keep up with solo shroud and the new quests.