Main tank AC

[Illuminati]

If that build could taunt it would be nerfed fast =p

Since I have this readily available because I've been working on mine...Halfling 12 Ranger/3 Paladin/1 Monk, dubbed the Iron Monk in the Ranger forums (credit to whoever started that thread):

AC
10 Base
12 Dexterity
6 Wisdom
7 Armor Bracers AC 7
1 Alchemical
5 Protection
1 Dodge Feat
1 Two-Weapon Defense Feat
2 Tempest Enhancement
2 Paladin Aura
1 Halfling Size
5 Combat Expertise
5 Natural, Barkskin
----------------------------------
58 + 2 vs Favored Enemies

4 Dodge, Icy Raiment
4 Greensteel Insight
3 Chattering Ring
1 Armored Bracers AC 8
----------------------------------
70 +2 vs Favored Enemies

3 Maximum Paladin Aura
1 Haste Spell
4 Shield Spell
----------------------------------
78 + 2 vs Favored Enemies

None of those three classes provide Intimidate as a class skill though, and he's further penalized for being a Halfling...so I haven't bothered to raise Intimidate.

[rimble]

If that build could taunt it would be nerfed fast =p

Yeah, going Fighter doesn't lose you a whole lot...-2 AC and -5ish Saves...and you can use the bonus Fighter feats to shuffle things around and take Iron Will and Bullheaded to make up for the Will saves at least...was gonna wait until level 10 to decide if I want to do that. Then it's a matter of possibly going Elven instead of Halfling to avoid the -4 Intimidate there...and that's another -1 AC...decisions decisions. Ah hell, I mighta just convinced myself to start over again...*grumble* Or of course Rogue is an option...aaaah!

[Illuminati]

I have that build on paper (12 Ranger / 2 Fighter / 2 Monk).

Just remember no shield DR / when taunting since you are TWF'ing so mind your AC or buff your HP.

[Blazer]

If that build could taunt it would be nerfed fast =p

Who cares if it can taunt, it can do flips in mid air!

[Leyoni]

Thanks rimble for your post. A couple of things.

I notice that you include barkskin, haste and shield spell. These are all buffs, yes? And, you indicate a max +3 paladin aura. That isn't a buff (technically I suppose) but you are not providing it yourself with a paladin 3 splash, right? So, it sort of acts like a buff and it is situational.

My question was about unbuffed, unsituational, AC. So, take away 11 from your 78 and that's 67 AC isn't it?

Now, that is more than the 64 top level AC of the fighter/paladin. But, without the intimidate, right?

And, if you drop the monk splash to get fighter or rogue you lose the +6 WIS bonus lowering the AC to 61 -- just where the original quote was. The other option would be to drop the paladin for fighter as you are getting only a +2 to AC from there, lowering the AC to 65. That is 1 point higher but you'll be able to grab intimidate. In either case, you lose the DR from not carrying a shield (how important is that?).

So, should the main tank have the 64 AC with intimidate or the 65-67 AC without? Should he have the DR from carrying the shield or not?

My assumption is that the intimidate fighter is grabbing aggro primarily by his intimidate and then turtling up for a short while as the other DPS folk pass out damage. OTOH, the ranger build is grabbing aggro primarily by his DPS and things like being the first one sighted (exploiting the hate system). Are those good assumptions?

Which is more important? I'm guessing the intimidate since you can spam that and pull aggression back to you after the DPS guys cause a hate shift or the intimidate timer runs out.

Last question (for this post). Does the +1 halfling AC bonus outweight the -4 intimidate reduction? I didn't see anything in the original gear list that boosted intimidate, but I know that the items are out there and there seems to be plenty of room in the gear list for additional items.

thx

[iruka41]

Sword and board needs intimidate to tank. Cause he can't out-DPS. It's easy to get.
But Intimidate is an AoE, so it have huge benefit over DPS-aggroing unless you're dealing with boss mobs.

DEX/WIS monk splash has much higher AC, so it negates some needs for DR.
For Intimidate, it doesn't matter when dealing with a single or couple mobs,
but against horde of mobs, quite a useless tank compared to Intimitanks.

If tanking is against every mobs, both builds SHOULD consider Evasion too.
Otherwise it's kinda half-tank IMO.

Both builds (S/B or Monk-splash) can have Evasion and high Intimidate with the right build.
(i.e. splash of rogue, monk, monk/fighter, monk/rogue, etc)

IMO the best tank is the one with all of high AC, high saves, Evasion, decent HP, Intimidate.

DR(A.K.A. shield block) is an option when your 'totally maxed' AC can't be around 70s.
Self-healing ability is another plus. (i.e. Quickend Cure/Repair, Lay on Hands, Halfling Dragonmarks)

[Blazer]

So, should the main tank have the 64 AC with intimidate or the 65-67 AC without? Should he have the DR from carrying the shield or not?

Tough question. I prefer the main tank to have the AC with the intimidate because intim is flawless (assuming one has one's skill high enough). Trying to gain/hold aggro via DPS can be difficult.

My assumption is that the intimidate fighter is grabbing aggro primarily by his intimidate and then turtling up for a short while as the other DPS folk pass out damage. OTOH, the ranger build is grabbing aggro primarily by his DPS and things like being the first one sighted (exploiting the hate system). Are those good assumptions?

Yep, this is pretty much spot on. The only note I would make is if the intimidate fighter has the AC floored to the point he's only getting hit on 20s, he doesn't have to turtle up, he can keep swinging away as well.

Which is more important? I'm guessing the intimidate since you can spam that and pull aggression back to you after the DPS guys cause a hate shift or the intimidate timer runs out.

Again, tough to say which is more important; call it more a matter of preference. I prefer intim since it is flawless and instant. That ranger can be dishing out 100s of points of damage to the monster but the second I get near and click intimidate, that monster is immediately turned on me and won't leave me alone until that 6 second aggro lock is up.

Last question (for this post). Does the +1 halfling AC bonus outweight the -4 intimidate reduction? I didn't see anything in the original gear list that boosted intimidate, but I know that the items are out there and there seems to be plenty of room in the gear list for additional items.

Again, tough to say. I guess it depends on what your goals would be with intimidate. The -4 does hurt on the current "endgame" raid bosses, since they're all at least one size modifier above the medium class creatures. So that's at least a -8 for a halfling. Now, halflings do get some other very nice benefits as well, beyond the +1 AC that make them a desirable race. For what it's worth, my human intim build usually runs around at 53 intimidate, but can get to 59 (+6 CHA skills shroud item) and can HV boost to 64. I'm using a +15 intimidate helmet, which yes, was not listed on the original gear list since that was an AC breakdown.

[iruka41]

FYI,

I'm biulding an Intimitank myself, a Dwarven 8Ftr/6Pal/2Mnk, a S&B.
Stat is 16/14/15/13/8/12, currently at level7.

Will use Mithral Breastplate and Tower Shield,
Looking at 62 self-buffed AC,
Maxed DR thru Feats and Dwarven Enhancements,
Maxed Intimidate with Feats and decent CHA,
Evasion with pally saves (all over 30s),
Decent HP thru Dwarven/Fighter Toughness,
Ability to self-heal with Lay on Hands,
Ability to use some tactics (Stun, Imp.Trip).

If that helps

[Gratch]

My Batman-based evada-inimitank with with 52 Intim sits at:

__AC__
10 Base
16 Delving Suit
2 armor mastery II (dex of 26 req)
1 dodge feat
2 self paly aura
5 +5 prot item
7 +5 Large Shield (Blocking DR15 Hound "cleric" shield is best)
2 chaosguardes
3 +3 Ac bark potion or seal of earth
5 combat expertise
3 Chattering Ring
4 Shroud Insight weapon
60

_Self Boosts available_
+5 HV AC boost (20s)
+4 Uncanny Dodge boost (15s)
+1 Haste (shroud cast)
+2 Recitation (wand cast - longer from clerics)
+1 Madstone Rage (+4 natural)

_Boosts from Others_
+4 Bard Inspire Heroics
+2 Full Ranger Barkskin (+5 natural)
+3 Full Paladin Aura
+4 Halfling Heroes Companion (which I get from a guildy sometimes - just listing it since it's a possible stacking source)

_Future Boosts_
+2 Dodge bonus once they fix the armor and shield +1 eldritch rituals. (they will be dodge bonuses according to dev post).

Which in actually sits at about a 69 during VoD or Hound main tanking because you can hopefully get haste, the ranger barkskin, recitation and the bard inspire heroics. It's "tough" to create and plan a toon like this since AC takes a lot of slots... which means you need a lot of slot economy from upper end items like dragon or titan belt. Building a shroud cloak with +5 protect, hvy fort, stoneskin, and extra HP is nice too (but 24 large). Really it's a lot of grind. But fun if you smile everytime you can eek out another +1 AC.

[rimble]

Thanks rimble for your post. A couple of things.

I notice that you include barkskin, haste and shield spell. These are all buffs, yes? And, you indicate a max +3 paladin aura. That isn't a buff (technically I suppose) but you are not providing it yourself with a paladin 3 splash, right? So, it sort of acts like a buff and it is situational.

My question was about unbuffed, unsituational, AC. So, take away 11 from your 78 and that's 67 AC isn't it?

Now, that is more than the 64 top level AC of the fighter/paladin. But, without the intimidate, right?

Well, I broke it down into three nice chunks I thought:

First chunk: No raid loot, no RR loot, self-buffs: 58 AC. That's pretty good and pretty much guaranteed for any type of player (no raid loot, no mithril full plate, no rare RR stuff)

Second chunk: You start acquiring your uber raid loot and RR loot: Slowly working your way up to 70 AC.

Final chunk: Very situational things: 3 from a max level Paladin aura, 1 from Haste, 4 from Shield. I don't ever consider these really, but they're nice to see written down sometimes.

I don't think 'unbuffed' is a fair comparison when you're capable of dropping +5 Barkskin on yourself...'self-buffed' is more applicable. This is a self-buffed easy to attain 58 AC. Self-buffed alot harder to attain 70 AC.

And, if you drop the monk splash to get fighter or rogue you lose the +6 WIS bonus lowering the AC to 61 -- just where the original quote was. The other option would be to drop the paladin for fighter as you are getting only a +2 to AC from there, lowering the AC to 65. That is 1 point higher but you'll be able to grab intimidate. In either case, you lose the DR from not carrying a shield (how important is that?).

The Monk Wis AC is too crucial. I've just worked out an alternate 12 Ranger/2 Fighter/2 Monk. He'll have -3 AC (-2 from no Paladin aura, -1 from not being Halfling) and about -5 Saves. The AC is unrecoverable, the saves can be made up by using the three extra Feats from Fighter 2 and Monk 2 (we already had Monk 1 so we had one of those Feats accounted for already) to take Iron Will and Bullheaded and things like that. So -3 AC (67 uber high-end AC), relatively comparable saves, Evasion, and full Intimidate now.

Shield DR only applies when you're actively blocking. Although he won't have the Shield Mastery Feats and Enhancements, the 12 Ranger/2 Fighter/2 Monk is just as capable of whipping out a big Tower Shield and turtling up behind it when necessary. During most normal play he'll be fine continuing to TWF and Intimidate with his 67 (uber geared) AC (and Evasion!).

My assumption is that the intimidate fighter is grabbing aggro primarily by his intimidate and then turtling up for a short while as the other DPS folk pass out damage. OTOH, the ranger build is grabbing aggro primarily by his DPS and things like being the first one sighted (exploiting the hate system). Are those good assumptions?

That's generally true. However, there is nothing quite so frustrating as being a mediocre-DPS Intimitank and fighting undead, vermin, and other hard to--or impossible to--Intimidate enemies. Utterly useless.

The S&B guys have inferior DPS and now inferior AC...I've given up...

Last question (for this post). Does the +1 halfling AC bonus outweight the -4 intimidate reduction? I didn't see anything in the original gear list that boosted intimidate, but I know that the items are out there and there seems to be plenty of room in the gear list for additional items.

Some people say it's okay, it depends on what level you want to play. Top end Elite content that -4 could make all the difference, it's hard to say, I don't generally run in those circles, people get too intense there.

Good luck.

[Leyoni]

Thx again rimble for your analysis.

It looks like the ranger/fighter/monk build gets the AC and intimidate. Bonus is that he is also higher DPS due to TWF. If he adds the mithral tower shield he loses the 6 AC WIS bonus but gains 8 AC from the shield (with tower shield mastery I) for a net 2 AC boost.

I guess the only other thing to consider is whether a figher/monk build using the same equipment and spending the fighter bonus feats on TWF line would be better.

It looks to me the ranger line gets you a couple of key things: some self buffing, including barkskin; favored enemy enhancements; self healing; evasion. OTOH, the fighter line would get you a few more HP and more feats.

Looks on the surface that the ranger line would be better.

Now the really hard part of this -- what race? 32 point dwarf seems good but takes a CHR hit. Drow seems good as it doubles up on DEX enhancements and has naturally high CHR. Elf seems as good as Drow with 32 point build but the enhancement options might be a more important factor.

Alright, that's about it for this post.

Thx again.

[Lifespawn]

FYI,

I'm biulding an Intimitank myself, a Dwarven 8Ftr/6Pal/2Mnk, a S&B.
Stat is 16/14/15/13/8/12, currently at level7.

Will use Mithral Breastplate and Tower Shield,
Looking at 62 self-buffed AC,
Maxed DR thru Feats and Dwarven Enhancements,
Maxed Intimidate with Feats and decent CHA,
Evasion with pally saves (all over 30s),
Decent HP thru Dwarven/Fighter Toughness,
Ability to self-heal with Lay on Hands,
Ability to use some tactics (Stun, Imp.Trip).

If that helps

no evasion for you with breastplate or shield monks can't use either of them and keep any monk bonuses

[rimble]

no evasion for you with breastplate or shield monks can't use either of them and keep any monk bonuses

Evasion is Evasion, it works the same whether you're a Monk, Rogue, or Ranger--it works in Light Armor.

[Lifespawn]

Evasion is Evasion, it works the same whether you're a Monk, Rogue, or Ranger--it works in Light Armor.

incorrect monks don't get evasion if they wear armor or shields

[rimble]

incorrect monks don't get evasion if they wear armor or shields

Too bad you can't see me, I'm doing a really good "you're wrong" dance.

[Lifespawn]

Too bad you can't see me, I'm doing a really good "you're wrong" dance.

i'm under the impression that monks have to be unencumbered and have no armor or shields to keep the monk evasion but don't have to be centeredeither way not my build so don't really care

[rimble]

i'm under the impression that monks have to be unencumbered and have no armor or shields to keep the monk evasion but don't have to be centeredeither way not my build so don't really care

Not trying to start anything, just trying to keep misinformation in check.

[Borror0]

i'm under the impression that monks have to be unencumbered and have no armor or shields to keep the monk evasion but don't have to be centeredeither way not my build so don't really care

Well, sorry to say this but you're wrong. Evasion is Evasion... monk, ranger rogue... it's Evasion.

[Lifespawn]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Monk says monks can wear no armor or shields and retain class abilities maybe it should be rephrased or updated

[rimble]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Monk says monks can wear no armor or shields and retain class abilities maybe it should be rephrased or updated

Yup, it's ****.