State of the Paladin

[Borror0]

How do other classes balance that? It might be hard to balance. But then again. What does a dps barbarian does in high end content? What does the same barbarian (or any other class) do in the other 95% of the quests?

Barbarians fair better all accross the content. Same for other classes, but fighters, paladins and monks... who all suffer similar issues to paladins.

Can a paladin get enough intimidate AND have enough feats, skill points and other stats to actually endure the beating he is going to take when he draws all that aggro?

Yeah, he can... but it takes the gear. Oh, and he has to be a dwarf.

I would prefer, as I've seen suggested, that it was charged when used, kind of like a buff, and then released on a hit.

That's my suggestion. And yes, it trigger when you want... rather than the stupid little delay that interrupts your attack chain...

The big problem with making Diplomacy good is that it would be unfair to the 99.8% of all existing DDO paladins who have zero ranks.

A change like that could not be rolled out without also releasing skill-point respecs.

Well, it would still improve the situation of paladins regardless of if there is a skill point respec.

However, I'm pretty sure the two of us agree that a skill point respec is way overdue. The amount of changes to skills have piled up with the time and it starts to get pretty big.

• Making Intimidate and Diplomacy instant.
• Making Listen useful
• Reducing the cooldown on Intimidate, Diplomacy and Bluff.
• Making Perform the base of Fascinate's DC.

And those are only those I can think of.

[Borror0]

Over the past week I have run the following that I can recall: 3 reavers, 2 shrouds, Rainbow, 2 or 3 giant hold quests (pop and Cry for help), 1 Tor run to get guildies blooded, a couple of desert quests (plus a handful of Bloodstone runs), the 4 house D depth quests, Redfang, STK, Tangleroot, a bunch of Explorer in Three Barrel Cove, Old Grey Garl and Trogladytes Get and Stones Run Red, the Brood of Flame. I run stuff at all levels fairly consistently.

So, you see, in there you got quests where paladins are either sub-par... or at a level where they are fine.

Sorry, not an argument against.

That tends to discount the value of flexibility and versatility. It also favors having full groups. While I often play in full groups, many times it ends up with only two or three characters at once.

A ranger is going to perform better in a half-full group than a paladin would. Same for a bard, a cleric, a sorcerer, a...

You get the point. I play in small groups really often. I'm either in full raid groups to raid, or I'm in a group of three of more guildies running a lowbie or Vale quest. I shortman, a lot. It's not a problem. Past a certain level, paladins are getting extremly weaker than other classes. It doesn't matter what class.

The context for you is endgame. If you fix / change things to work well in endgame but end up with broken things early on, that is not good.

Balance at mid level is more important than capped where most of the players play? Yeah, right.

Balance at mid level is unimportant. And yes, it doesn't matter what player type you are. Unless something is extremely overpowered at a certain level, it's not important. Part of the reason is that those quests are really, really easy, but also, nothing is static liek end game: with the same level 7 character, you may as well play with level 4's or with level 10's. And then, you're going to level up in a few quests and you'll be of a different ppower doing other quests. Thus, balance at mid level is barely a concern. Do you see posts about how overpowered level 9 paladins are? No. They are going to level up and by level 11 they'll be really misadapted to the quests they run.

Characters are being improved further and further with time. Most improvements are released at lower levels. Did you see posts about how level 6 rangers were overpowered since they were given Ram's Might and Tempest? Because they are much more powerful at that level than they used to be!! The concept of keeping balance at that level is laughable..

The only place where balance will most likely matter.. is end game. Unless there is a serious problem at another level.

Other than that, strengthening paladins goes by improving level 11 and beyond, it wouldn't hurt your "mid level balance". Nearly all suggestion are aimed at that level or are suggestion where the true power will be near the current cap. Now, if you're scared over the balance of the lower levels, I would start a thread about how much PrEs are bad for the game and how they affect the balance at mid levels... and that they should stop their production now. They game is fine anyway.

Point is is you really want to do something you can. Will it gimp other parts of the character, almost certainly.

You almost got my point. It's not "other parts" it's the character himself. A class might have to giomp itself to accomplish his role in a party.

As for what a Paladin has over a fighter: Spells, innate saves, immunities to disease, fear, turning undead, smites, etc. While most of those things contribute nothing to DPS, they do contribute to making the Character a Paladin.

Saves? My fighter never fails his.
Immunity to disease? Can be put on an item and I know a lot of fighters wiuth an immunity to it also. I prefer drinking potions.
Turn Undead? Let me politely laugh.
Smites? Err... I think you know my point of view on that.

If all you want from a character is DPS, then just build a DPS monster (ranger/barbarian depending on the flavor of the month)

This game isn't all about DPS. Proof, my main is an intimitank.

That's not even revelant to the discussion. I know a character can be beneficial to the party by other means than DPS. Healing, CC, etc. Fact is, paladins are not. Their "benefits" are laughable and barely matters... and don't outweight for their lower DPS. Because this is what it is about, it's whether or not their lower DPS is compensated somewhere... it's not.

Each class bring something different to the table.

True, but paladins are leechers. They don't carry as much weight as other characters.

[Dawnblade]

Yeah, he can... but it takes the gear. Oh, and he has to be a dwarf.

Why is that? Armor mastery and other enhancements? If that is the case, how can we balance the other races without making dwarven paladins even stronger? Anything we give paladins will also be given to dwarven paladins. Are they always going to have an edge?

That's my suggestion. And yes, it trigger when you want... rather than the stupid little delay that interrupts your attack chain...

Does anyone else agree with that suggestion? I could try to compile a list of productive things that come out of this thread in the OP if we get enough ideas. But let's try to keep this civilized. We are here for the best of the paladin class, not to kill each ohter

The idea of diplomacy being used for aggro doesn't seem right to me. But I guess I'd be willing to accept that if there is no way we could get intimidate to work. But then, when would we pick what use we want out of diplomacy? When we use the skill or as a different toggle process? That seems awkward to me.

Why would my idea by too hard to code? There are already enhancements that add numbers to skills. It shouldn't be too different to make them multiply the base number instead.

Balance at mid level is more important than capped where most of the players play? Yeah, right.

Balance at mid level is unimportant. And yes, it doesn't matter what player type you are. Unless something is extremely overpowered at a certain level, it's not important. Part of the reason is that those quests are really, really easy, but also, nothing is static liek end game: with the same level 7 character, you may as well play with level 4's or with level 10's. And then, you're going to level up in a few quests and you'll be of a different ppower doing other quests. Thus, balance at mid level is barely a concern. Do you see posts about how overpowered level 9 paladins are? No. They are going to level up and by level 11 they'll be really misadapted to the quests they run.

I disagree that we should be concerned only with high end content. If a paladin can't find a group to help him get to the higher levels because no one wants a paladin in their group, he will never experience the high end content. Sure, most mid level quests can be done with any combination of classes. But for those who can't, there has got to be a reason to invite a paladin to a group other than just to fill up the spot.

Saves? My fighter never fails his.
Immunity to disease? Can be put on an item and I know a lot of fighters wiuth an immunity to it also. I prefer drinking potions.
Turn Undead? Let me politely laugh.
Smites? Err... I think you know my point of view on that.

I agree with this. Turn undead is useless. I've tried using it in quests a few levels bellow my character and many times it does nothing. Same level, forget it. Smites would be good if they changed how they are used. But then again, not everything in the game is evil, so we would still be at disavantage with other classes that can do spike damage to anything (or most things). High Saves, from what I've seen, can be achieved by any other classes; that however, might be with some of the better gear? Disease immunity can be achieved with items, and it's rarety from what I've seen in the game barely makes it important.

[Borror0]

Are they always going to have an edge?

It's possible. Most of it comes from Amor Mastery.

At worse, it's not a sin to have a race better at one class. It perfectly acceptable, for as lnog as the gap is not significantly huge. The problem with dwarves is that they are the 'best race' for too many class/archetype... but most of that comes from Toughness. Deal with that, and they become a powerful race... but not as grossly overpowered as they are now.

The idea of diplomacy being used for aggro doesn't seem right to me. But I guess I'd be willing to accept that if there is no way we could get intimidate to work.

Like I said, it's about 'convincing' the mobs to pick you.

But then, when would we pick what use we want out of diplomacy?
When we use the skill or as a different toggle process? That seems awkward to me.

Ever casted Resist Energy?

Why would my idea by too hard to code? There are already enhancements that add numbers to skills. It shouldn't be too different to make them multiply the base number instead.

Do you mean increase the cap of rank they can have or just a freebee bonus to intimidate?

If a paladin can't find a group to help him get to the higher levels because no one wants a paladin in their group, he will never experience the high end content.

Anyone not wanting a paladin under level 9 is clueless. Until level 9, paladins are a very solid class. Starting level 10 they get weaker and weaker... and by level 12, it gets riddiculous. Oh, and don't get me started about level 16 paladin...

Sure, most mid level quests can be done with any combination of classes. But for those who can't, there has got to be a reason to invite a paladin to a group other than just to fill up the spot.

A group of three paladins that knows what they are doing can level themselves up to level 16 if they want.

[Dawnblade]

Like I said, it's about 'convincing' the mobs to pick you.

Ever casted Resist Energy?

Well, if it works like Resist Energy I'm going to have to disagree with you. I want a taunt skill that works immediatelly like intimidate. Sometimes you don't have time to click two things before you caster dies.

Do you mean increase the cap of rank they can have or just a freebee bonus to intimidate?

Not sure I understand your question. What I mean is: Let's say the paladin has +3 cha bonus to his intimidate. Then the goes and spends 20 skill points on it. He'll have a total of 13 (20/2 because of cross class skill plus the cha bonus. Then he buys the first level of the "intimihancement" and his total base skill is increased by 25% and becomes 15 (20/2= 10 +25% = 12 rounding down plus 3 cha bonus. Buying the 2nd level of the enhancement would increase the base skill by 50% making it 18. Level 3 would be 100% cancelling out the cross class skill disavantage, making the total intimidate for our paladin 23. Granted I've pulled these numbers out of my hmmm hat. Better numbers could be created for balance but you get the idea.

Anyone not wanting a paladin under level 9 is clueless. Until level 9, paladins are a very solid class. Starting level 10 they get weaker and weaker... and by level 12, it gets riddiculous. Oh, and don't get me started about level 16 paladin...

Tell me what a paladin can do better than anyone at any level. Not being a jerk, just honestly trying to find out to figure out the "state of the paladin". Say, people get clerics and bards for healing/buff, rogues for traps, everything else for dps from my experience. People in the quests I've done don't really seem to follow any strategy. Even in stuff like TS it's just rush in, kill, heal and be done. No tanking, no CCing. Granted I've mostly done pugs; maybe with guilds it's different.

A group of three paladins that knows what they are doing can level themselves up to level 16 if they want.

Can't a group of 3 anything who knows what they are doing get to level 16? With potions for healing, there's very little a paladin can offer that other classes would be missing.

[Borror0]

Sometimes you don't have time to click two things before you caster dies.

You know you can drag the icons from the pop to your hotbars, right?

Better numbers could be created for balance but you get the idea.

I get where you're going, but that fix would either penalize those who took a level of fighter/rogue to max intimidate, or at the opposite would overpowere them because they would have +38 Intimidate before adding Cha, feats or items.

Tell me what a paladin can do better than anyone at any level.

Paladins are great at low levels. S&B DPS is not as laughable as at cap. Honestly, before level 10, a paladin has nothing to complain.

They can kill great and their AC matter. It past level 9 that a paladin starts lagging behind the others.

Can't a group of 3 anything who knows what they are doing get to level 16?

Pretty much, but that was my point: they are not a liability to the point of uselessness. It shouldn't be that hard for them to get in a group.

It's also easier for a group of paladins than say a group of fighter or barbarian at lower levels. Their self-suffiency matters more at lower levels, making the task easier for them. At higher levels, it's pretty much the same regardless of if you're a paladin, fighter or barbarian... however.

[Dawnblade]

You know you can drag the icons from the pop to your hotbars, right?

Actually, I didn't, thanks!

It doesn't seem like many people are interested in this discussion. You and I can probably talk about this forever but it would be cool to get some more points of view.

[Borror0]

It doesn't seem like many people are interested in this discussion. You and I can probably talk about this forever but it would be cool to get some more points of view.

Let's just say that it's a dead horse that has been beaten... a lot.

[maddmatt70]

For all of this paladin defending and such Borro - my question is when are you going to roll one up and level one? You have a fighter with 2 levels of paladin, but that hardly counts.

[Borror0]

For all of this paladin defending and such Borro - my question is when are you going to roll one up and level one? You have a fighter with 2 levels of paladin, but that hardly counts.

Oh, I had one. It's a mule. Alhandrah, level 12 paladin/2 fighter.

I leveled another one, wasn't what I would have wanted around level 11.

[Dawnblade]

I get where you're going, but that fix would either penalize those who took a level of fighter/rogue to max intimidate, or at the opposite would overpowere them because they would have +38 Intimidate before adding Cha, feats or items.

Would it be better if the enhancements were available at lvl 8 and beyond? That would mean that someone would have to go deep into paladin to get the benefits of their overpowered intimidate.

How about if there was a line of paladin enhancements that emphasized charisma? According to the (old)rules of AD&D, high charisma is one of the requirements for playing a palading. I think the minimun you had to have was 15 charisma? Or was it 17? Anyway, in DDO, there's little reason to have a high score in that attribute.

How about enhancements that added the charisma bonus to: AC (similar to monk wisdom), double the charisma mod to charisma based skills, add sp bonus based on charisma to the base wisdom sp. Stuff like that. These could have restrictions to work much like the wisdom AC to monks. Maybe the cha AC would only apply when in heavy armor and wearing a shield. Same for the charisma bonus to skills. Restrictions could be tailored to minimize the advantages of multiclassing. For example having to wear heavy armor for a bonus AC would prevent it from stacking with the monk AC bonus. There could be a charisma bonus to DR reductions to simulate the awe that the holy warrior inspires to his foe;

That could possibly help with the problem paladins have spreading their stats too thin, allowing them to centralize a bit more on charisma and not be gimped.

[Artierius]

I like some of the ideas you are throwing out there...however the one thing when making a pally is that to make them any good you already need to spend so many points on their enhancements. Adding more useful ones only spreads those so few points you get into even more lesser enhancements as people will want to get so many of them still. Maybe if they make pally enhancements only cost .5 instead of 1 or 2 per level increase can they get back some of their power...:]

[Borror0]

Would it be better if the enhancements were available at lvl 8 and beyond? That would mean that someone would have to go deep into paladin to get the benefits of their overpowered intimidate.

It changes nothing, Dawn.

Say your paladin multiclasses with rogue or paladin, he can have [character level +3] ranks into Intimidate, even though all of his 15 other levels are paladin levels. So, if a paladin spends a lot of skill points into Intimidate, he's going to have a very, veyr high score... for very little investment. That's the problem with it. And anyway, it costs way too many APs for something that should ne inate. I don't see why people are so stubborn of fixing everything by enhancements...

How about if there was a line of paladin enhancements that emphasized charisma? [...]Anyway, in DDO, there's little reason to have a high score in that attribute.

True, there are not many benefit of having an high Cha, but again... silly enhancement suggestion...
What bout using the spells and feats from PnP that actually make Cha useful instead?

They have much more logic in them and actually strengthen something that does make the class different from the start!

How about enhancements that added the charisma bonus to: AC (similar to monk wisdom)

That would be grossly overpowered and bad for the game.

double the charisma mod to charisma based skills

Crazy UMD paladins?

add sp bonus based on charisma to the base wisdom sp.

Bah, why not... but how many paladin really spend APs for a larger SP pool?

These could have restrictions to work much like the wisdom AC to monks. Maybe the cha AC would only apply when in heavy armor and wearing a shield.

That would be forcing a class into a unique fighting style, I have to oppose.

There could be a charisma bonus to DR reductions to simulate the awe that the holy warrior inspires to his foe

Or... what about using spells for that? Like, you know, the thing that makes paladin different from fighters?

[Zenako]

I suspect that the reason so many suggestions focus on changes to Enhancements is that they are readily changed given current implementation of DDO, while Skill Points are locked down and Feats are very costly to change around and more limited in what is available.

Enhancements also give you the option of restricting them to certain classes or certain minimum levels in a class before they can be taken which helps avoid some potentially overpowering situations.

[Dawnblade]

It changes nothing, Dawn.

Say your paladin multiclasses with rogue or paladin, he can have [character level +3] ranks into Intimidate, even though all of his 15 other levels are paladin levels. So, if a paladin spends a lot of skill points into Intimidate, he's going to have a very, veyr high score... for very little investment. That's the problem with it.

I would assume that like most everything else, anything past a certain threshold becomes irrelevant. Plus, if someone wants to build their character to do nothing than intimidating, I don't mind that they have uber high score. I just want to see paladins as viable tanks. Right now, the low level of intimidate paladins can achieve prevent that. I think....

True, there are not many benefit of having an high Cha, but again... silly enhancement suggestion...
What bout using the spells and feats from PnP that actually make Cha useful instead?

Well it's my understanding that enhancements were a DDO addition to D&D. So it's easy to fool around with it without affecting the core rules of D&D. I honestly think the whole intimidate issue could be solved by making it a paladin skill. But you pointed out (and I'm sure the puritans agree) it would be against the core rules. I really don't agree that diplomacy would be a solution. It just seems forced. I can't imagine diplomaticly forcing someone to attack me.

That would be grossly overpowered and bad for the game.

Why? You said yourself that it's hard for the average paladin to get the AC necessary do well in the end game. That would make things easier.

Crazy UMD paladins?

UMD is not a class skill for paladins so you would need to multiclass. Again spreading out enhancements through the levels could minimize the effects of multiclassing.

Bah, why not... but how many paladin really spend APs for a larger SP pool?

Well if you want spells to be our salvation, we should worry about our sp. My sp bar is actually larger than my hp bar at the moment. It allows me to live longer since I can somewhat heal myself in between battles. The problem is staying alive through the tougher battles. This is where slightly stronger heals would come in handy.

That would be forcing a class into a unique fighting style, I have to oppose.

It wouldn't force anything. It would only force a tank to dress up as a tank. If you want your AC bonus, you DR bonus, and your intimidate bonus, for tanking, you better dress up for the occasion. If you want to be a dps paladin you can wear whatever else you want.

Or... what about using spells for that? Like, you know, the thing that makes paladin different from fighters?

I'm not against using spells. But spells would be bound to the core pnp rules as well I would imagine. Furthermore, with the currently low sp that we get, if we had to use spells to ungimpify ourselves, we would quickly run out of sp and be gimped again until the next shrine, unless you made them have long durations. Specially if spells weren't self buff only, everyone in the party would want some of the cool buffs. Then paladins wouldn't have enough to heal.

Making paladins spell based would probably require some enhancement balancing as well in my opinion. Right now there is very little that would allow a paladin to be an efficient spellcaster.

[Verdant_Force]

I'm not against using spells. But spells would be bound to the core pnp rules as well I would imagine. Furthermore, with the currently low sp that we get, if we had to use spells to ungimpify ourselves, we would quickly run out of sp and be gimped again until the next shrine, unless you made them have long durations. Specially if spells weren't self buff only, everyone in the party would want some of the cool buffs. Then paladins wouldn't have enough to heal.

Making paladins spell based would probably require some enhancement balancing as well in my opinion. Right now there is very little that would allow a paladin to be an efficient spellcaster.

Unless I'm buffing the party up with resists, my sp bar lasts me until the shrine because the only spells i have to recast are divine favor and angelskin with the occasional virtue when it runs out. I don't even bother with healing spells because wand whipping will do the same effect to top me off in between fights, IMO paladin cure spells are laughable during combat. The only cures i use come from wands and lay on hands...so my sp is rarely drained from heals.

Paladins don't have to be efficient spellcasters...they just need to be better buffers. I would suggest having them be self only due to the limited sp otherwise you'll have a similar effect to barkskin and rangers where everyone always nags the ranger for a bark even though it hardly gets their AC to an effective level in most cases.

[Girevik]

A couple quick comments.

Enhancements are a good tool for fixing balance issues because it is possible to respec and select a new batch of them after an update. Skills can not be respecced.

I go for extra spell points on my Paladin. I use them to cast resists on the party. I agree, on the whole my spell selection pales in comparison to a Cleric or Wizard, but I do still get 30 points resists, so if I use my points for Resists, they can use theirs for other useful purposes.

[Borror0]

I would assume that like most everything else, anything past a certain threshold becomes irrelevant. Plus, if someone wants to build their character to do nothing than intimidating, I don't mind that they have uber high score.

It's about giving them a big bonus without any logical reason to. It's not about getting 70 Intimidate, but getting 50 withotu a problem.

I really don't agree that diplomacy would be a solution. It just seems forced. I can't imagine diplomaticly forcing someone to attack me.

It's not forcing, it's convincing!

What do you think Intimidate does? You grab the mob by the head, push him against a wall and yell at him to hit you othewise you kill him?

Why? You said yourself that it's hard for the average paladin to get the AC necessary do well in the end game. That would make things easier.

It would simply push the maximum AC up. Fixes nothing at the end of the day.

UMD is not a class skill for paladins so you would need to multiclass.

That's totally false.

8.5 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
+3 Cartouche
31.5

Now, with rogue levels (which is commonly done and to account):

+19 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
39

That's Heal scrolls on 1, without uber gear or any large investment on Cha!!

Again spreading out enhancements through the levels could minimize the effects of multiclassing.

That's false, unless you put the enhancement at level 20 and the game never goes beyond level 20.

Well if you want spells to be our salvation, we should worry about our sp.

What level are you?

172 base
+175 Wizardry VII (Ring of Thelis)
+125 Wisdom (20 Wisdom)
472 SPs

That's without:

• Paladin Energy of the Templar III (60 SPs)
• Mental Toughness (85 SPs)
• Improved Mental Toughness (85 SPs)
• Green Steel accesories (150 SPs)

Do you really need that much?

It wouldn't force anything. It would only force a tank to dress up as a tank.

It would force paladins as 'tanks', trust me. You already see that in usual paladiin debates, it would make it worse.

I'm not against using spells. But spells would be bound to the core pnp rules as well I would imagine.

Yes, but there is no issue on that side.

Specially if spells weren't self buff only, everyone in the party would want some of the cool buffs.

Self-buffs accomplish different purposes than buff everyone can have.

Then paladins wouldn't have enough to heal.

Weren't you the one to admit paladin heals were suffisent?

Making paladins spell based would probably require some enhancement balancing as well in my opinion. Right now there is very little that would allow a paladin to be an efficient spellcaster.

It's not about making of paladin a 'spellcasting call', it's about making them able to buff.

[Borror0]

Enhancements are a good tool for fixing balance issues because it is possible to respec and select a new batch of them after an update.

So can spells.

Skills can not be respecced.

Skill should be respec'able... why? Because they have been modified too much previously.

[Freeman]

That's totally false.

8.5 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
+3 Cartouche
31.5

Now, with rogue levels (which is commonly done and to account):

+19 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
39

That's Heal scrolls on 1, without uber gear or any large investment on Cha!!

Um, a +14 Charisma requires a Charisma of 38. Wouldn't that be a rather large investment in Charisma, and pretty much gimp the paladin completely?