Looking for a viable class combinding rogue n barbarian

[centurian]

I rolled a halflnig character,wanting to take 6 lvls rogue for the way acrobat, and the trapmonkey ability.So far hes lvl2 rogue and lvl1 barbarian,which gives me 9 lvls to build the remaining.Was hoping to combine rogue and barbarian classes,for they are my two favorite class.Should i go rest 9 lvls all barbarian?or splash2 lvls fighter for xtra feats n +1 str bonus?

[Angelus_dead]

I rolled a halflnig character,wanting to take 6 lvls rogue for the way acrobat, and the trapmonkey ability.

AcrobatI from rog6 isn't very good. People who like Acrobat enjoy it because of the tier II ability to be immune to knockdown effects, which comes at rog12.

So far hes lvl2 rogue and lvl1 barbarian,which gives me 9 lvls to build the remaining.Was hoping to combine rogue and barbarian classes,for they are my two favorite class.Should i go rest 9 lvls all barbarian?or splash2 lvls fighter for xtra feats n +1 str bonus

Rog15/barb1 is a fine build, although many other combos will work. Barb14/rog2 is also fine.

[centurian]

I guess i should include that he also is 2 weapon fighter and im gonna use either picks or rapiers shortswords,not sure,just know im going with piercing on this toon .So really i guess with his int where it is i can make a viable trap rogue but hes better suited to max barbarian lvls for better dps?

[Angelus_dead]

I guess i should include that he also is 2 weapon fighter and im gonna use either picks or rapiers shortswords,not sure,just know im going with piercing on this toon .So really i guess with his int where it is i can make a viable trap rogue but hes better suited to max barbarian lvls for better dps?

I don't know your ability scores, but it's possible for barb14/rog2 or barb15/rog1 to do fine at disarming traps.

[Leyoni]

IMO it would be helpful to know what role you want to play while in a group.

I feel like you are going for a DPS character with trapmonkey as a side. The question is do you want to be the aggro magnet?

Since you are going to focus on piercing weapons with low damage my guess is that you don't want the aggression.

IMO that means going with rogue as your main class and barbarian as your secondary class. So, it now becomes a question of how much barbarian to splash.

As was pointed out, if you want the acrobat stuff you should be at least L12 in the rogue class. ATM that leaves 4 levels for barbarian. If you do this you get 24hp, a boost to Fort saves, fast movement, rage, and all melee weapons. You give up 2d6 of backstab damage which actually hurts your DPS.

I'm not sure you gain much by taking the barbarian levels, in fact, I think you suffer. Spending the 4 levels on ranger would be better as you would get bow strength and TWF (letting you respec a feat) along with a favored enemy and a boost to both Fort and Reflex saves. Still, the loss of the extra backstab damage probably doesn't make this worth while.

As others pointed out, going with barbarian as your main class makes better sense, but then you'll want to change your weapon focus away from piercing weapons to high damage output ones (like kopesh).

[Angelus_dead]

Since you are going to focus on piercing weapons with low damage my guess is that you don't want the aggression.

When held by a barb, picks are not a low-damage weapon. To a barb of level 14 or higher, picks are just as good as a khopesh except for the 1d6 base damage instead of 1d8. Considering the saved feat and higher availability, that's no drawback at all.

[Leyoni]

When held by a barb, picks are not a low-damage weapon. To a barb of level 14 or higher, picks are just as good as a khopesh except for the 1d6 base damage instead of 1d8. Considering the saved feat and higher availability, that's no drawback at all.

Ok, that's probably true. I was really thinking more in terms of rapiers and short swords.

Aren't kopesh threat/multipliers 19-20/x3 and heavy picks 20/x4? Doesn't that work out to a loss of base damage during crits? Not sure of the math but with double the threat range a kopesh crits twice as often for an average of 10.5 per crit (base damage only) while the pick crits for an average of 14 per crit? With crits coming twice as often that means in 20 attacks the kopesh does 21 points on average while the pick does 14?

Also, since other factors are also tossed in (STR, weapon bonuses, elemental effects, etc.) wouldn't two otherwise identical weapons mean a much steeper drop in effectiveness for the picks?

Thx,

[Angelus_dead]

Aren't kopesh threat/multipliers 19-20/x3 and heavy picks 20/x4? Doesn't that work out to a loss of base damage during crits?

A high level barb uses khopesh as 15-20/x3 and pick as 17-20/x4. In both cases that comes to 31 damages per 20 attacks. (khop = 19+6*(3-1)=19+12=31, pick = 19+4*(4-1)=19+12=31). Thus they both provides 155% of nominal physical damage on crittable monsters. The smaller d4 or d6 damage of a pick is a real downside, but it's small, and is more than compensated by the feats you save from Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Oversized TWF.

Not sure of the math but with double the threat range a kopesh crits twice as often for an average of 10.5 per crit (base damage only) while the pick crits for an average of 14 per crit?

That's the wrong way to think about this, because it overemphasizes the role of the weapon's base damage and treats it like it was the majority of the damage, when really strength, Power Attack, and Inspire Courage are all larger contributors.

[Leyoni]

A high level barb uses khopesh as 15-20/x3 and pick as 17-20/x4. In both cases that comes to 31 damages per 20 attacks. (khop = 19+6*(3-1)=19+12=31, pick = 19+4*(4-1)=19+12=31). Thus they both provides 155% of nominal physical damage on crittable monsters. The smaller d4 or d6 damage of a pick is a real downside, but it's small, and is more than compensated by the feats you save from Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Oversized TWF.

Not sure here. The kopesh number should be 6 crits in 20 swings (best case) and the pick number 4 in 20. The kopesh still does x3 damage on its base of 4.5 per hit for 6*3*4.5=81. The pick does x4 on its base of 3.5 for 4*4*3.5=56. Both of these are subject to confirmation. As best case is 19/20 (a 1 always failing) you need to multiply crit damage by .95. This means the kopesh does 81*.95=76.95 and the pick 56*.95=53.2. For the remaining hits the weapons do their base damage. As best case is 19/20 (1 always missing) this means the kopesh gets 13 additional hits at 4.5 damage per hit and the pick gets 15 at 3.5. Total damage from the kopesh over 20 attacks, on average, is 13*4.5+6*3*4.5*.95=135.45. Total from the pick is 15*3.5+4*4*3.5=105.7.

That's the wrong way to think about this, because it overemphasizes the role of the weapon's base damage and treats it like it was the majority of the damage, when really strength, Power Attack, and Inspire Courage are all larger contributors.

Yep, the added bits are the majority of the damage but they scale as well. When you are criting more often you get the bonuses more often and in bigger chunks. That means the gulf between the two weapons is bigger.

Think of it this way. Same STR, buffs, weapon characteristics -- the only difference being base damage and number of crit opportunities. Let's set the bonuses at some value, say 100. Unless DDO messes with the implimentation (which is known to have taken place in other cases) this number is multiplied by the critical multiplier. On a kopesh that is x3 for 300 additional points of damage per hit. On the pick it is x4 for +400 points.

A kopesh hits 6 times confirming .95 for 300*6*.95=1710. The pick hits 4 times confirming .95 for 400*4*.95=1520. Add in the base weapon damage. The kopesh gets 1710+135.45=1845.45 points of damage while the pick only gets 1520+105.7=1625.7.

The fact is that all of those bonuses actually make the difference between the weapons bigger.

What I think happens is that this math doesn't mean much in the game as the mobs go down fast enough that the difference isn't noticed. Which is why I said earlier that it is probably true that at high levels the choice between kopesh and pick doesn't make much difference.

But, in theory, it does. Unless, of course, you can find something in my math that is wrong.

Edit: BTW, your math is horrible. (khop = 19+6*(3-1)=19+12=31, pick = 19+4*(4-1)=19+12=31) is just gibberish. The average damage per hit on a d8 is 8+1*.5=4.5 and on a d6 is 6+1*.5=3.5. That means a kopesh's crit damage is 6*4.5*3*.95 while a pick's is 4*3.5*4*.95 (number of crits*average damage*crit multiplier*% to confirm). The 6*(3-1) and 4*(4-1) is just nonsense.

I have no idea where the 19 comes from. I can't tell if it is the 19 chances to confirm (assuming 1 being the only miss) or if it is some constant that you think factors into damage. In either case it is wrong. There is no constant to figure in and the crit confirmation is 19/20 or .95 as a multiplier.

Lastly, there are some bonus items that don't stack in and are not affected by the multiplier. These include things like alignment, elemental or bane damage. If all things are equal this damage will be exactly the same on average for both weapons if the two of them are otherwise the same. That means there is no catching up by the pick to the kopesh because neither is doing more with this added damage than the other.

[Leyoni]

Angelus_dead,

Though you'd comment more here. Are we both in agreement that picks don't really give the same damage output as kopeshes? Or, is there something wrong with my math that needs to be corrected?

Also, are we both in agreement that the mobs probably die fast enough that the differences don't really matter? It probably takes the pick user 10-15 seconds longer to kill the mob but whose looking at the clock that closely anyway? In the big scheme of things, the speed and effectiveness of the two seems about the same and that is what is most important.

Just want to make sure I'm not left hanging here with some thoughts that aren't valid.

Thx

[Angelus_dead]

Think of it this way. Same STR, buffs, weapon characteristics -- the only difference being base damage and number of crit opportunities. Let's set the bonuses at some value, say 100. Unless DDO messes with the implimentation (which is known to have taken place in other cases) this number is multiplied by the critical multiplier.

No, I will not think of it that way. You are multipling by the critical multiplier, which is an understandable mistake because the name "critical multiplier" creates a strong impression the variable should be multiplied by something. But in reality, you multiply by critical multiplier -1.

On a kopesh that is x3 for 300 additional points of damage per hit. On the pick it is x4 for +400 points.

No. As just explained, the khopesh gets +200 and the pick gets +300.

Edit: BTW, your math is horrible. (khop = 19+6*(3-1)=19+12=31, pick = 19+4*(4-1)=19+12=31) is just gibberish.

Wrong. My math is not horrible; it is correct, whereas yours is incorrect. Maybe you can't understand my math, but that doesn't make it "horrible".

I have no idea where the 19 comes from. I can't tell if it is the 19 chances to confirm (assuming 1 being the only miss)

I agree you have no idea where it comes from. It comes from the fact that out of 20 average attack rolls, 1 of them will do zero damage.

PS. You are incorrect to think that 5% of critical confirmations will fail on a natural 1. That's not how they work. Conversely, a natural 20 might not succeed.

[Angelus_dead]

Though you'd comment more here. Are we both in agreement that picks don't really give the same damage output as kopeshes?

No. Picks give nearly the same damage as khopeshes, minus only a very small amount of around 1.5 per swing for a heavy pick or 2.5 per swing for a light pick. As already explained, those penalties can be outweighed by the one or two feats you saved.

Here, I'll explain it again (bearing in mind that this is for a barbarian with Crit Rage II and Imp Crit-All):

Every weapon does 0 damage on a roll of 1.
On rolls of 2-20 (which happens 19 times), the weapon does full normal damage (assuming the monster has very low AC).
Thus to start with an attack with a weapon does an average of 19/20 * damage_per_hit damage. If the target is immune to crits it ends there.

Next we add in the crits. A khopesh crits on 15-20, which means its critical threat range is 6 (20-15+1). A khop crit does +2x damage above what the weapon already inflicted just for hitting, because (crit mult -1)=2. So over 20 rolls there are 6 crits which add 2x damage, for a total of 6*2=12 damages added.

19 + 12 = 31 base damages inflicted over 20 rolls. Divide by 20 to get the per-attack damage and we have 31/20 = 1.55. That is the "Critical Power" of the weapon type (when wielded by a barb).

Or if we were using a pick instead, it would crit on 17-20, threat = 4 (20-17+1). A pick crit does +3x damage. Over 20 rolls the 4 crits each add 3x damage, for 4*3=12 dmages added. 19+12=31 base damages inflicted over 20 rolls. The per-attack Critical Power is 31/20=1.55.

That means that once Crit Rage II is in the picture, picks and khopeshes are overall identical in their most important regard, which is how much it multiplies your damage bonuses from strength, power attacks, and bard song. The choice between the weapons falls to other factors:
1. Khopesh costs a feat for proficiency.
2. Khopesh costs a feat for offhand use.
3. Khopesh uses Imp Slashing, which also works if you have any Greataxes.
4. Khopesh has +1 base damage over heavy pick, and +2 over light pick.
5. Khopesh gains slightly more from Bloodstone.
6. Khopesh works better with on-crit effects that don't scale up with the crit multiplier.
7. Pick's damage is more bursty, creating a better chance you'll kill a monster with a single amazing crit.
8. Pick allows some effects not found on slash (like banish and puncture)
9. Khopesh will have all those non-barbarians competing for the gear, because without Crit Rage II it's notably superior.
10. Pick allows you to try Deathnip, which is awesome.

[Leyoni]

So, you're saying that a crit multiplier of 2 actually multiplies by 1?

I'm a bit perplexed here.

The way a crit works is that the number of dice rolled for damage is increased from 1 to 2 on a x2 multiplier. So a weapon that does 1d6 of damage now does 2d6. Since we always discuss things relative to average damage this means 3.5 becomes 7. That is a straight multiplication by the crit multiplier. The crit damage would not be 3.5*(2-1) because then the amount of damage would still be 3.5. That is the same as it is if there is no crit.

What you have is the added damage from a crit when you use your method. The extra damage a crit does would be 3.5*(2-1) for 3.5 more than the normal damage. If the multiplier were 3 the total damage would be 3*3.5=10.5 and the extra damage would be 7 for each hit.

For your formula to work it needs to be (19*average weapon damage)+(number of crits*average weapon damage*(crit multiplier-1)). For the kopesh that translates to (19*4.5)+(6*4.5*(3-1)). But, this is still wrong because it assumes every crit will be confirmed. That will not happen. A crit is only confirmed 19 times in 20. 19/20=.95 and this has to be multiplied times the number of hits in the crit range to see how many actually produce crits.

So, the final correct formula (your method) should be (19*4.5)+((6*.95)*(4.5*(3-1))). Note that if we take out the crit confirmation then you can use the distributive law from basic algebra to make the formula 4.5*(19+(6*(3-1)). This is very close to what you originally posted. And what it demonstrates is that the number of dice used for damage, including the extra dice from criticals, is the same for both picks and kopeshes.

But, you fail to take that information and then multiply the number of dice times the damage done. If you do that then the 31 kopesh dice do 31*4.5=139.5 points of damage and the 31 pick dice do 31*3.5=108.5 points of damage.

Now, let's compare this to what I wrote.

I wrote that a kopesh will do 81 points of crit damage and a pick 56. But, I did not take into account the other non-crit damage that was done.

For a kopesh with 6 crits in 19 hits there are another 13 hits that do 4.5 points of damage each. 13*4.5=58.5. Add this to the 81 points and the kopesh does 139.5 points of damage. The pick with 4 crits has 15 hits that do 3.5 points each. 15*3.5=52.5. Add this to the 56 from crits and a pick does 108.5.

So, both of us show that the kopesh is doing more damage than the pick is doing (once we take your number of dice and multiply them times the average for each. You are correct that both weapons use 31 dice in 20 attacks (of which 19 succeed). But the dice are different types so the actual amount of damage is different.

Your math did not take that into account.

On top of that, both of these methods -- yours and mine -- fail to consider that crits have to be confirmed. With a hit 19 times in 20 the confirm number is 19/20=.95. This variable has to be multiplied times the extra dice that are added in for crits. Using your method this means a kopesh has to have the (6*(3-1)) multiplied by .95, and the pick has to have the (4*(4-1)) multiplied by .95.

What this means is that you are adding 12*.95=11.4 dice to the 19 for each weapon. So, the real damage done is 4.5*30.4 for the kopesh and 3.5*30.4 for the pick. That comes out to 4.5*30.4=136.8 points of damage for kopeshes, while 3.5*30.4=106.4 on picks. It is a difference of 30.4 (the number of dice) every 19 hits.

Now what is good about this is it shows an error in my math. I had reached 135.45 for the kopesh and 105.7 for the pick. The error in my math is that the .95 doesn't affect the 4.5 or 3.5 damage for the .05 times the crit isn't confirmed. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't explained what you were trying to do.

What it does show is that the actual damage potential of the kopesh is 136.8/19=7.2 points of damage per swing while that of the pick is 106.4/19=5.6 for the pick. [This is total damage from 19 hits divided by the 19 hits in each case.] This tells us how many hits are needed to kill a mob based on the mob's hit points. For example, a 2000 point mob will take 2000/7.2= ~278 hits to kill with a kopesh and 2000/5.6= ~357 with a pick. Those 69 extra hits represent a 69/278= ~25% increase in effort to kill the same sized mob using the pick.

Now, this all applies only to the dice being rolled for base damage and to the total damage done by that base damage. But, it shows that the kopesh does more damage than the pick does and is more efficient even though the same number of dice are being rolled.

Next, we need to look at the other numbers that add in. Some of this is not figured in at all with the multipliers. As I said, things like elemental or bane are not multiplied. Weapon pluses and strength bonuses are multiplied directly by the multipliers.

So, let's take a very specific example of two weapons, one a kopesh and one a pick, each a +4 weapon being used by a 28 STR character. For each die thrown the damage will be 4.5+4+9=17.5 for the kopesh and 3.5+4+9=16.5 for the pick. Since we know that each weapon gets 30.4 dice this means the kopesh does 532 points of damage and the pick 501.6. Notice that the difference is the same 30.4 as before.

As long as the weapons have the same bonuses and the characters have the same STR, feats, etc. then the pick can never match the damage output of the kopesh.

Your (corrected) math proves this and my (corrected) math proves this. As we would say QED!

But, once more, it may just be that our perception of the difference is so small that we don't really notice it is there. When we take the weapon bonus and STR into account from the example, the damage output per hit is 532/19=28 for the kopesh and 501.6/19=26.4 for the pick. That 1.6 points isn't very much. Using the 2000 hp mob from before, the kopesh takes 2000/28= ~71 hits to kill while the pick takes 2000/26.4= ~76. Those extra 5 hits now represent a 5/71= ~7% increase in effort.

That still makes the pick less efficient, but the real difference between 71 hits and 76 hits is so few in actual time -- only 1 or 2 attack sequences -- that we probably don't notice it. In a quest with a timer it might matter. But in most cases it won't and we will not notice the difference during the quest because the difference between the two weapons is now too small for us to notice.

There is a difference, but we probably don't know it is there.

The maths prove this to be the case.

[Leyoni]

Well, you and I were typing at the same time I see.

We've hit mostly the same conclusions for different reasons.

I notice that you are looking at the differences in weapons and I haven't done that. Obviously if the weapons or characters are different then there are cases where pick is superior.

I'm looking at it from purely the "all things being equal" POV.

You've taken it a step further by noting that "all things are never equal." A totally valid POV.

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

Edit: BTW, I notice you still fail to account for confirming crits in your calculations (which is going to affect your "Critical Power"). But, since your POV rests mostly on the differences that can be found in the weapons that is of only minor consequence. I'm in total agreement with you that if the weapons and users are not the same (with obvious needs to account for the two weapon types and associated feats) then picks can be equal to or better than kopeshes.

Edit again: I also notice that your "Critical Power" is really just the number of dice to be used on each swing. The 1.55 represents 6.95 points of damage each swing for the kopesh and 5.42 points for the heavy pick. That seems to be the basis of your damage difference of ~1.5 points per swing, legitimate enough. While this (still) isn't accounting for potential crits that don't confirm, it is a rough enough estimate. IMO the 1.5 point difference is considerable if you are taking more than a few swings. But, as my post shows, it declines as a % of the total damage when you factor in other bonuses such as weapon pluses or STR. Since the % declines it is easy to conclude that the difference narrows towards negligible as you have done. Once again, thanks for a good discussion.

[Korvek]

BTW, I notice you still fail to account for confirming crits in your calculations (which is going to affect your "Critical Power").

I do need to add, rolling a 1 to confirm a critical does not necessarily cause you to fail to confirm. 1's are not autofails for confirmation.

[Angelus_dead]

Edit: BTW, I notice you still fail to account for confirming crits in your calculations (which is going to affect your "Critical Power").

No, it does not effect it. Confirming crits cancels out exactly and is equal for both sides. If the weapons under consideration included an axe or a rapier that could benefit from racial attack enhancements that'd be different.

[Leyoni]

I do need to add, rolling a 1 to confirm a critical does not necessarily cause you to fail to confirm. 1's are not autofails for confirmation.

That may be the implimentation or the result of weapon/enhancement/feat bonuses. But, the basic rule is that to confirm a crit you need to roll a second hit. Since 1 is supposed to be an automatic failure (as 20 is supposed to be an automatic success) this means that for these types of discussions we should limit ourselves to the .95 rate as a best case.

Confirming crits cancels out exactly and is equal for both sides. If the weapons under consideration included an axe or a rapier that could benefit from racial attack enhancements that'd be different.

True but sloppy. As shown in my longer post, if you don't consider the crit confirmation the damage done by the kopesh is actually larger and the difference more pronounced. Again, this is immaterial if you are working from a premise where things are not equal to start with. You've made your point by listing things that are additional factors and cannot be replicated by the different weapons. Every idiot understands that.

But, your posts, initially, made it seem like you were trying to suggest that on an exactly equal basis picks were as good as kopeshes, which the math doesn't support whether done precisely or with the canceling effects. The maths prove that when everything is equal kopeshes are better.

Your posts conceed that, but until the latest one didn't adequately explain that you were not considering things as being unequal.

Edit: BTW, I'm not every idiot. It took me this long to decipher that this is what you meant from your earlier posts.

[Angelus_dead]

That may be the implimentation or the result of weapon/enhancement/feat bonuses. But, the basic rule is that to confirm a crit you need to roll a second hit. Since 1 is supposed to be an automatic failure (as 20 is supposed to be an automatic success) this means that for these types of discussions we should limit ourselves to the .95 rate as a best case.

Wrong, as already explained. That's not how DDO works.

True but sloppy. As shown in my longer post, if you don't consider the crit confirmation the damage done by the kopesh is actually larger and the difference more pronounced.

Wrong, as already explained. That's simply not true. That factor is exactly equal for the khopesh and the pick.

But, your posts, initially, made it seem like you were trying to suggest that on an exactly equal basis picks were as good as kopeshes

Wrong, as already explained. My post did not say that.

Your posts conceed that, but until the latest one didn't adequately explain that you were not considering things as being unequal.

Wrong. I did not concede anything, because I was initially correct and never changed my position.

[Leyoni]

Ok, last post because I thought we were ending on a good note but now it looks like you've become upset.

You mention that there is a small difference in damage output between kopesh and pick. This is a concession that kopeshes are better when all things are equal. It isn't like you conceeded an argument or a ball game, it is like you set it up as an initial starting point. I just didn't read your earlier posts that way.

I thought you were saying in your earlier posts that, yes, kopeshes are better but as you increase the parts that go into the multipliers picks become as good. That, of course, is false.

What I now understand you to have been saying is that, yes, kopeshes are better if everything is equal but because of saved feats and different weapons/enhancements/feat choices/etc. picks can easily be more effective than kopeshes -- it really depends on what you have and how you're character is built.

Now that I see that this is your point I am in agreement. Yes, there are situations where pick users will out perform kopesh users. And, it is all a result of builds & equipment not being equal.

I will say that if you think the damage done by kopesh and pick is exactly the same then you're just wrong. The damage done by a kopesh is, using your numbers 31*4.5=139.5 points of damage in the 20 swings while that of the pick is 31*3.5=108.5. You can never get away from that. Your "Critical Power" is a meaningless number unless it is multiplied times the damage output of the weapons. To put it differently, the CP of 1.55 produces 1.55*4.5*20=139.5 points of damage for the kopesh and 1.55*3.5*20=108.5 points of damage for the pick in 20 swings. Notice that in either case the kopesh does 31 more points of damage than the pick in those 20 swings. Since this damage is lower if you consider crit confirmation of .95 you get a difference between the weapons of 31 using your method instead of 30.4. When I write that without crit confirmation the difference in the weapons is larger that is not wrong -- it is right. When you write that the factor is exactly the same that is misleading. 31 does not equal 30.4. What the two have in common is that they are both the number of dice rolled for damage. Thus, you are right that they are the same factor, but one is clearly larger than the other in real number terms.

Still, it has been refreshing to have a good discussion where the points were made and with a minimum of frustration. In the end I was able to see how you got to your conclusions and what the basis for them was.

So it can't have been all bad.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

After lv 1, Brbs don't seem to get a lot until 11 and 14, w/crit rage.

A Brb14/Rog2 is a very good build that I am surprised I do not see more of running around.

Any other combo seems weak to me. Any number of Rog lvls is ok, but I don't see much gain between Brb1 and Brb11.