spell DC and SR same thing?

[DazeDazeDaze]

+1 to the DCs to your spells

and

+1 against Spell resistance

do they achieve the same thing?

If I has Spell Penetration and Spell Focus feats, would they stack?

Thanks

[branmakmuffin]

+1 to the DCs to your spells

and

+1 against Spell resistance

do they achieve the same thing?

If I has Spell Penetration and Spell Focus feats, would they stack?

Thanks

If DDO works like PnP, the DC is the number the target has to roll to save vs. the spell. Every target gets a saving throw vs. spells that allow a save. SR is the number the caster has to roll to beat (or I guess equal, to be totally correct) to affect the target (which is still entitled to a saving throw if the spell allows it). SR acts like magic AC. Of player races in DDO, I believe only Drow have natural SR.

If DDO works differently or if my understanding is flawed, I'm sure someone will correct me.

[frugal_gourmet]

I believe the above poster is correct. However, you are also generally thinking along the right lines. Both +1's would add around a 1 in 20 chance of success (if you were in the right range to begin with). So, in that sense they are equal.

Most low to middle level monsters do not have SR. You cast your spell, they roll to save (which is affected by their attributes), and if they fail your spell succeeds.

The DC they must beat is 10 + spell level cast + your charisma modifier + spell focus feats/items.

High level monsters frequently have SR. BEFORE the monster saves, the caster has to beat that spell resistance much like a fighter beats an AC by rolling higher.

Your spell resistance roll is your caster level + SR feats + SR items.

So, DC is more statistic dependant and SR is more level dependent. In the end game, you probably need to take both into consideration for your spells to land.

[iruka41]

DC vs. Saves (Spell Focus adds to DC)

Caster level check vs. SR (Spell Penetration adds to caster level check)

Totally different thing.

A mob can have uber SR with crappy saves. Vice versa.

[DazeDazeDaze]

DC vs. Saves (Spell Focus adds to DC)

Caster level check vs. SR (Spell Penetration adds to caster level check)

Totally different thing.

A mob can have uber SR with crappy saves. Vice versa.

If I use burning hands first I have to penetrate any SR. Then the mob has to roll a save for half dmg. Is that right?

Spell penetration items/feats/ench are abundant, but DC bonuses seems sparse. Is spell focus the only way to boost DC, is it crucial to have?

[Lithic]

If I use burning hands first I have to penetrate any SR. Then the mob has to roll a save for half dmg. Is that right?

Spell penetration items/feats/ench are abundant, but DC bonuses seems sparse. Is spell focus the only way to boost DC, is it crucial to have?

most damaging spells bypass spell resistance, including burning hands. The few exceptions are soundburst, PK, and finger of death (among others) which have a primary effect that is NOT damage. Fireball and the like do not need an SR check.

[DazeDazeDaze]

most damaging spells bypass spell resistance, including burning hands. The few exceptions are soundburst, PK, and finger of death (among others) which have a primary effect that is NOT damage. Fireball and the like do not need an SR check.

Is there a list of spells that dont bypass SR? Is it all hostile non-dmg spells (web?)?

Starting to regret the Spell Penetration feat.

[Harncw]

Is there a list of spells that dont bypass SR? Is it all hostile non-dmg spells (web?)?

Starting to regret the Spell Penetration feat.

examine the spell in question.... it tells you...

if not via hotbar hover over spell in spell book....

lottsa good info there

[Angelus_dead]

Is there a list of spells that dont bypass SR? Is it all hostile non-dmg spells (web?)?

The system is that spells whose only real purpose is hitpoint damage are not blocked by SR. (Like Fireball and Disintegrate)
In addition, spells that effect the environment rather than directly manifesting on the target creature are not blocked by SR. (Like Web and Solid Fog)
Things that are blocked are stuff like Hold, Charm, Dance, Banishment, Fear, Enervation, Symbols, and Finger of Death.

Some notable hybrid cases:
Poison is blocked by SR, while Contagion is not. (Both inflict stat damage with a fort save)
Soundburst is blocked by SR, while Greater Shout is not. (Both inflict sonic damage and stun with a fort save)
Holy Smite (and equivalents Chaos Hammer / Order's Wrath) are not blocked by SR.

Starting to regret the Spell Penetration feat.

Spell Penetration is a great feat, for high-level quests featuring Evil Outsiders (which means "devils", really). Also good on Ogre Magi and Illithids. It's typically a waste to get Spell Penetration before around level 15.

[DazeDazeDaze]

Tried to search for a guide on spell focus, as far as which to take, but no luck. Anyone have any advice?

[Angelus_dead]

Tried to search for a guide on spell focus, as far as which to take, but no luck. Anyone have any advice?

You don't really need any spell focus, but since a wizard gets Metamagic feats for free, you are likely to have a free slot to spare for it. The most popular spell focus is necromancy, followed by enchantment, but it all depends on which spells you like to cast (and that you notice enemies saving on):

Necromancy- for Finger of Death, Fear, and Bestow Curse
Enchantment- for Hold Monster, Charm, Suggestion, Dominate, Dance, and Hypnotism
Transmutation- Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate
Illusion- Phantasmal Killer
Conjuration- Web, and somewhat Cloudkill or Niac
Abjuration- Banishment/Dismissal
Evocation- Fireball, Lightning, Cone of Cold, Shout

(That list is roughly sorted in order of decreasing value)

[Lithic]

Is there a list of spells that dont bypass SR? Is it all hostile non-dmg spells (web?)?

Starting to regret the Spell Penetration feat.

Trust me, at lvl 16 you will LOVE the spell pen feat. My capped sorc wishes she could take 2 more.

As for spells that dont bypass SR, if it has an effect other than damage, it probably needs an SR check. As for web, i "think" it also bypasses SR because as a conjuration spell, it brings something real into existance (sticky web) which then acts on the world, rather than being a force of magic acting on your target.

[DazeDazeDaze]

Things are a lot clearer now, thanks a bunch.

Since mental tough gets worthless at higher levels I may just go:

Spell penetration x2
SF enhancement x2
SF evocation x2

My play style has always been having minions and doing full damage when possible.

[Angelus_dead]

SF evocation x2

I strongly recommend against evocation focus.

1. Many evocation spells allow no saving throw, including some of the best like Wall of Fire and Scorching Ray.
2. Almost all evocation spells use reflex saves, which is the weakest save for most tough monsters.
3. Evocation spells normally do half damage even on a successful save, as opposed to other spells that do nothing or negligible damage.
4. There are probably enough other valuable feats (including more metamagic) than you can afford for evocation.

Wizards get 4 free metamagics, which covers Extend, Maximize, Empower, and Heighten. But Quicken is also valuable.
And then other decent feats include Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, and Skill Focus UMD.

So with those to choose from, you can probably do better than Evocation Focus.

[DazeDazeDaze]

I strongly recommend against evocation focus.

1. Many evocation spells allow no saving throw, including some of the best like Wall of Fire and Scorching Ray.
2. Almost all evocation spells use reflex saves, which is the weakest save for most tough monsters.
3. Evocation spells normally do half damage even on a successful save, as opposed to other spells that do nothing or negligible damage.
4. There are probably enough other valuable feats (including more metamagic) than you can afford for evocation.

Wizards get 4 free metamagics, which covers Extend, Maximize, Empower, and Heighten. But Quicken is also valuable.
And then other decent feats include Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, and Skill Focus UMD.

So with those to choose from, you can probably do better than Evocation Focus.

Fair enough, Insightful Reflexes sounds good. With a tough or mental tough feat.

[Lithic]

Fair enough, Insightful Reflexes sounds good. With a tough or mental tough feat.

A caster without maximize is like a barbarian without a big-ass sword.

[DazeDazeDaze]

A caster without maximize is like a barbarian without a big-ass sword.

I'm getting the ones you mentioned: Extend, Maximize, Empower, and Heighten, as bonus meta feats.

[Lithic]

I'm getting the ones you mentioned: Extend, Maximize, Empower, and Heighten, as bonus meta feats.

oh right, wizard build hehe.

Well I wouldnt personally bother with insightfull reflexes. Reflex saves for traps are too for this feat to matter (and half damage can kill a low hp wizard anyway). Reflex spells happen, but truth be told I hardly ever notice them except for the shroud boss fireballs.

Assuming you arent human (as you only have 6 feats), I would go:

2x spell pen
2x mental toughness (wizards need all the SP they can get)
2x spell focus. Enchantment is real nice (especially if we get mass hold monster in the next level cap increase), though a finger of death specced caster is a force to reckon with.

If you are dwarf, take toughness instead of a mental toughness.

[DazeDazeDaze]

oh right, wizard build hehe.

Well I wouldnt personally bother with insightfull reflexes. Reflex saves for traps are too for this feat to matter (and half damage can kill a low hp wizard anyway). Reflex spells happen, but truth be told I hardly ever notice them except for the shroud boss fireballs.

Assuming you arent human (as you only have 6 feats), I would go:

2x spell pen
2x mental toughness (wizards need all the SP they can get)
2x spell focus. Enchantment is real nice (especially if we get mass hold monster in the next level cap increase), though a finger of death specced caster is a force to reckon with.

If you are dwarf, take toughness instead of a mental toughness.

Indeed a dwarf, I'm guessing I should the max enchancment boost for it as all?

[Lithic]

Indeed a dwarf, I'm guessing I should the max enchancment boost for it as all?

Well as a dwarf you really should take advantage of the toughness benefits. 48 hp at lvl 16 for 1 feat+6ap is really not bad at all. I dont think I would take it all the way to toughness IV though. You are going to want to use your action points for improved max/heighten, spell penetration and damage bonuses. If you will end up with over 300hp though, toughness may be overkill. My human sorc does just fine with 270hp.