Bow Rate of Fire vs. Melee attack rate

[Turial]

You are correct Coldin. Base attack bonus determines how many attacks you get a round regardless of weapon type. Prior to 3.0 there were weapon speeds but they were discarded because it complicated combat in a needless manner.

A character who uses a bow will have exactly the same base number of attacks, power, damage output, and critical chances as another similarly built character who uses a warhammer in pnp.

Exerpt from my thread on ranged combat to show roughly how 3 types of ranged combat might compare if ranged was fixed.

If it was up to me ranged ROA would be equal to melee attack speed, for all classes and before applying any feats. The Rapid shot feat would allow for a player to make an extra attack during a sequence, thus raising the ROA by 1 shot for each sequence and applying a -2 attack penalty while it was active (rapid shot would have to be a toggle feat). Manyshot would be a toggle feat that allowed the ranger to make an attack that fires the correct number of arrows per BAB on each shot while applying the corresponding penalty to those shots, the kicker would be that it slows your ROA to 1 attack per sequence. Also composite bows should have the feat bow strength applied to them so that any user can apply their str to the damage portion of the attack. Bow Str should be left as a ranger feat to reflect the pnp theme of the ranged ranger.

Lets say for ease of number crunching that a player at BAB can get off 100 attacks in a minute through melee. This comes to 20 attack sequences of 5 attacks each. A player using ranged combat and no additional feats would also get 100 attacks over a minute. Using rapid shot that ranged combat used would see 120 attacks in the same minute but at a penalty of -2. If you didnt take SOTR and moved around during that time, like many ranged combat users do, the penalty would be -6 for each shot. A player that uses manyshot full time during that sequence would see 80 attacks during that minute all at -8 to hit. If they also applied rapid shot you would see 100 attacks at -10 to hit. If you also happened to move and didnt have SOTR the total penalty would be -14 to hit.

Setting the world as such adds balance because a ranged combat user would be more likely to pick up SOTR to eliminate the penalties associated with infinate kiteing or might have to make a choice about when to use particular feats. In pnp manyshot is great for taking out large, high hp, but low ac creatures. The penalties may have to be adjusted based on the relative values of AC in the game as we don't see many mobs with low AC and high hp, they tend to be high on both.

A light crossbow user with no feats would see 20 attacks in a minute and a heavy crossbow user would get 10 attacks in the same minute. A repeater user would see 10 attacks of 5 bolts each for 50 attacks in a minute.

Add in rapid reload and the light crossbow user can obtain 100 attacks in a minute as the reload is changed to a free action rather then a move action. A heavy crossbow user would be increased to 20 attacks as the reload is no longer a full round action but a move action. The repeater user would then see 20 attacks of 5 bolts each for 100 attacks in a minute.

So in the end the crossbow does see a slowdown in ROA but it comes up to full martial weapon ROA with the addition of a single feat. Not bad overall for a ranged weapon that can be used by all classes and has a better crit range then a bow. The SRD doesnt list the differences between the light and heavy repeaters in terms of reload times and number of bolts that they can hold so I just listed a blank repeater. The benafit of the repeater is a quick burst of attacks from a weapon with a higher crit range then a bow, which is a game were on critical effect matter a large amount is decent for an exotic feat.

I dont know how rapid shot and crossbows interact in pnp. I would think that so long as you could make multiple attacks in a round you would be able to apply the effects of rapid shot. So a light crossbow user with rapid reload and rapid shot could have 120 attacks in a minute with a total penalty of -2 to each shot. It doesn't seem that rapid shot would work with heavy crossbows or repeaters because you can only reduce the reload time to a move action and thus wouldn't get an additional attack. This is because you can only take 1 standard action with a move action in a single round.

[Zenako]

let me also add in, in PnP D&D there is no such things as DPS. Damage per round perhaps, but that end ups being very different.

In D&D everyone (humanoid characters) starts with getting one attack per round. When you BAB hits +6 you are eligible for iterative attacks one at +6 to hit and another at +1 to hit if you do not move more than you are allowed to (normally a single 5 foot step). As you hit BAB +11 you get three and +16 gives you 4 attacks at +16, +11, +6 and +1 to hit.

Feats such as Rapid shots give you one extra attack at a penalty to hit (-2). Spells like haste can give an Extra Attack when you are getting a Full Attack. To be honest the Two Weapon Fighting Rules changed a number of times and I am not sure where they ended up, but in general when fighting level appropriate mobs with appropriate AC it was generally a wash or a losing proposition to use TWF if you had a good shield due to the penalties to HIT. IN DDO we have so many boosts to hit prob, plus the horribly inverted BAB scheme that to hit penalties are all but irrelevant most of the time.


So a Level 6 Ranger with Rapid Shot Feat and Under a Haste Spell could in PnP D&D fire off 4 arrows, with base hit probabilities of +6-2, +6-2, +1-2 and the Haste Bonus at +6-2. (The -2's are for using Rapid Shot). So 4 attacks at +4, +4 -1 and +4 to hit (before magic weapons, dex, other feats and spells.).

The Manyshot Feat allows mutiple arrows to be fired in one attack and was useful when you were not able to take a Full Attack. The to hit penalty depended on the quantity of arrows being fired.

[shores11]

First off we need to stop refering to attacks in terms of a minute and instead refer to it as a round. D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 and DDO use a round to desscribe its combat, a round is a 6 second interval.

D&D whether D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 or DDO clearly has intended for the attacks per round of a bow to be different than a melee weapon. I will quickly illustrate some of the breakdown found in the D&D 2.0 players manual explaining weapon speed or speed factor.

Weapon - Speed Factor (the lower the speed factor the faster the weapon)
Longsword - 5
Dagger - 2
2-Handed, Sword - 10
Longbow - 8
Comp. Longbow - 7
Shortbow - 7
Comp. Shortbow - 6
Crossbow, Light - 7
Crossbow, Heavy - 10

These are just some examples and unfortunately D&D 3.5 is not very clear on weapon speeds. However by reviewing the table above you can see some very clear relation to how fast the rate of attack (fire) is in DDO.

Summary: The ranger is good the way it is.

[Coldin]

First off we need to stop refering to attacks in terms of a minute and instead refer to it as a round. D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 and DDO use a round to desscribe its combat, a round is a 6 second interval.

D&D whether D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 or DDO clearly has intended for the attacks per round of a bow to be different than a melee weapon. I will quickly illustrate some of the breakdown found in the D&D 2.0 players manual explaining weapon speed or speed factor.

Weapon - Speed Factor (the lower the speed factor the faster the weapon)
Longsword - 5
Dagger - 2
2-Handed, Sword - 10
Longbow - 8
Comp. Longbow - 7
Shortbow - 7
Comp. Shortbow - 6
Crossbow, Light - 7
Crossbow, Heavy - 10

These are just some examples and unfortunately D&D 3.5 is not very clear on weapon speeds. However by reviewing the table above you can see some very clear relation to how fast the rate of attack (fire) is in DDO.

Summary: The ranger is good the way it is.

Wow, just wow. You ask for where in 3.5 it talks about weapon speeds, multiple people give you example, you disregard that, show off 2.0 rules, and state that's why ranged combat is fine.

First off, DDO is based on the 3.5 ruleset. 2.0 is vastly different from 3.5, there's not much point in even showing those rules for argument.

Second, yes, rounds are 6 seconds. 3.5 gives everyone wielding 1 weapon (either sword or bow) a certain amount of attacks per round based on BaB. 2.0 again uses completely different rules, and really can't be used as an example.

Third, the Ranger (the class) for the most part is fine. Ranging (aka archery) is not fine, and needs to be changed.

[Brother_Tuck]

First off we need to stop refering to attacks in terms of a minute and instead refer to it as a round. D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 and DDO use a round to desscribe its combat, a round is a 6 second interval.

D&D whether D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 or DDO clearly has intended for the attacks per round of a bow to be different than a melee weapon. I will quickly illustrate some of the breakdown found in the D&D 2.0 players manual explaining weapon speed or speed factor.

These are just some examples and unfortunately D&D 3.5 is not very clear on weapon speeds. However by reviewing the table above you can see some very clear relation to how fast the rate of attack (fire) is in DDO.

Summary: The ranger is good the way it is.

Let me preface by saying that obviously you really do not understand the difference between an MMO and role-playing. I have played rangers since the early 1980s and I would say I have a pretty good understanding of the class. Rangers are not good the way they are as their biggest strength is their ranged combat which is the biggest weakness in DDO. A properly played ranger in the role-playing is one of the strongest classes as they can rain fire down upon an enemy and kill them before they attack, before they can reach the rest of the party or in a variety of ways. Not so in DDO. The information you provided is from the 2.0 version of the game which is NOT what DDO is based on and is not even relevant. Their are other modifiers to weapon speed as well which you did not include.

I am not saying that rangers are gimped in anyway with my point above, I merely am trying to point out the incorrect information that is provided. The ranged combat in the entire game is gimped and not the class. This has been discussed many times on the forums and agreed to by most players and gamers alike. I would suggest not trying to agrue the opposite as its a useless and baseless discussion.

Just my humble op....

[shores11]

Wow, just wow. You ask for where in 3.5 it talks about weapon speeds, multiple people give you example, you disregard that, show off 2.0 rules, and state that's why ranged combat is fine.

First off, DDO is based on the 3.5 ruleset. 2.0 is vastly different from 3.5, there's not much point in even showing those rules for argument.

Second, yes, rounds are 6 seconds. 3.5 gives everyone wielding 1 weapon (either sword or bow) a certain amount of attacks per round based on BaB. 2.0 again uses completely different rules, and really can't be used as an example.

Third, the Ranger (the class) for the most part is fine. Ranging (aka archery) is not fine, and needs to be changed.

Let me say that saying wow, just wow does not mean that I have seen information in D&D 3.5 that says a bow gets a certain number of arrows off per round or a melee weapon gets a certain number of attacks per round. I do agree that D&D 3.5 states that a standard round is the same for melee as it is for range however that does not mean the same as rates of fire or attack. I only put in information from D&D 2.0 as a reference point not as a comparison to DDO as D&D 2.0 is the only ruleset that gives information as detailed about attack speed. However D&D 2.0 explains that a bow can fire up to 2 arrows per round and a longsword for example can be swung at about 2.5 times per round or 5 attacks per two rounds. I also know that there are modifiers for everything such as magical weapons and ability bonuses I was just referencing the basics.

I can agree that some changes need to be made in terms of speed of attack example a bow should fire faster than a 2-handed weapon but not as fast as a single handed weapon like a longsword. I do not agree that a strength bonus should apply to damage for crossbows (you pull a trigger) as there is no strength used in firing the weapon. Yes, there is strength used in arming the weapon but it has nothing to do with firing the weapon. I also agree with D&D 3.5 rules that only composite longbows, shortbows and slings should have a strength bonus for damage (slings would be a nice addition to the game).

I also agree that pen and paper rules can not be directly translated to DDO however it is obvious that in some areas the developers tried to place the concept into DDO when they could. I do agree that according to D&D 3.5 ruleset they missed a little bit on bows.

[redoubt]

Give us one more attack per round with bows. Change nothing else and see how it goes.

(Scale as needed, i.e. maybe not an extra attack at level one, but make the number of attacks with a bow scale up to one more than it is now.)

Thanks!

[Coldin]

Let me say that saying wow, just wow does not mean that I have seen information in D&D 3.5 that says a bow gets a certain number of arrows off per round or a melee weapon gets a certain number of attacks per round. I do agree that D&D 3.5 states that a standard round is the same for melee as it is for range however that does not mean the same as rates of fire or attack. I only put in information from D&D 2.0 as a reference point not as a comparison to DDO as D&D 2.0 is the only ruleset that gives information as detailed about attack speed. However D&D 2.0 explains that a bow can fire up to 2 arrows per round and a longsword for example can be swung at about 2.5 times per round or 5 attacks per two rounds. I also know that there are modifiers for everything such as magical weapons and ability bonuses I was just referencing the basics.

I can agree that some changes need to be made in terms of speed of attack example a bow should fire faster than a 2-handed weapon but not as fast as a single handed weapon like a longsword. I do not agree that a strength bonus should apply to damage for crossbows (you pull a trigger) as there is no strength used in firing the weapon. Yes, there is strength used in arming the weapon but it has nothing to do with firing the weapon. I also agree with D&D 3.5 rules that only composite longbows, shortbows and slings should have a strength bonus for damage (slings would be a nice addition to the game).

I also agree that pen and paper rules can not be directly translated to DDO however it is obvious that in some areas the developers tried to place the concept into DDO when they could. I do agree that according to D&D 3.5 ruleset they missed a little bit on bows.

I don't think you're actually listening to me.

The rules make no distinction between a single weapon or a bow for attacks per round. Crossbows without the rapid reload feet fire slower because you have to take a move action to reload them.

Let me try to explain this again. A round in 3.5 lets you take a move action and a standard action, or a full round action. Full Round actions include a Full Attack, which lets you make a number of attacks per round based on BaB. At BaB 1-6, you get to make 1 attack per round. At BaB 6, you get make 2 attacks. BaB 11, 3 attacks. And so on and so forth. Wielding 2 weapons grants a few additional attacks with that extra weapon, depending on the level of TWF feat you have.

Crossbows and regular bows do not in fact allow you to add Strength to damage. Only Composite Bows do, though this is not implemented in DDO.

Again, 2.0 rules don't belong in the discussion. DDO is based on 3.5 rules, which has weapon speeds all the same, except for certain feats, abilities, ect.

[Turial]

First off we need to stop refering to attacks in terms of a minute and instead refer to it as a round. D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5 and DDO use a round to desscribe its combat, a round is a 6 second interval.

.....
Summary: The ranger is good the way it is.

We refer to attacks per minute because it is the only way to actually see the affect of many shot on bow based ranged combat vs melee. Mainly because it takes 2 full minutes to recharge many shot and use again.

Melee gets ~ 91 attacks per min which is 9.1 attacks per 6 second round...so a round is not really 6 seconds. Bow based ranged combat gets 53 attacks per min without many shot for 5.3 attacks in a 6 second round or [(20/6)*5.3]*4 = 70.6 attacks during the time many shot is active (20 second period) or 21.39 attacks in a 6 second round (during many shot). 159 ranged attacks with a bow over 2 minutes vs 182 melee attacks.

(very simplified example)
Warhammer = 4.5 average damage* 182 attacks in 2 minutes = 819 or ~6.9 DPS

Longbow = 4.5 average damage* 159 attacks in 2 minutes with many shot = 715.9 or ~5.9 DPS (only possible to reach this if the mob lives for a full 2 minutes)

Longbow = 4.5 average damage* 106 attacks in 2 minutes without many shot = 477 or ~ 3.9 DPS (ranged combat without many shot is half as effective as melee with a warhammer)

Yes rangers are fine.
People have to separate ranged combat from rangers, rangers shouldn't be the only people picking up ranged weapons. When I talk about improving ranged combat I want to improve it for all classes; paladins, clerics, fighters, bards, sorcs, wizards, barbarians, rogues, etc.

[Ikuryo]

I agree with the people that say that ranged with bows is slower then it should be. The ways the Rangers were better at ranged includes several spells they do not get in DDO right now, I assume because they would be hard to implement. One of my favorites that I would love to see is one that shoots an arrows at every mob in range in an arc in front of you. With improved precise shot rangers could clear rooms with that spell. There are several others that do area attacks and such as well.

Repeaters are actually firing faster then they should be. The repeater builds at one point complained loudly on the boards and the Devs allowed another feat or 2 to increase their attack speed then increased the attack speed of repeaters when they put in a slight increase to all attack speeds as your BaB goes up. The repeater is supposed to be a mechanical device that holds 5 bolts before being reloaded. It still requires a full-round action to reload it, just like a Heavy crossbow. The advantage was that it could be fired more often then a normal crossbow before needing to be reloaded. Both light and heavy repeaters had the same clip size, firing rate and reload speeds.

Bows, as has been said, are listed as just a normal weapon with the same rate of attack as the 1 hand weapons.

I do remember one group I was in where all the melee pulled out a bow and shot stuff as it was coming before switching to melee when they got close. It was a nice feeling, people don't seem to do that as much though since they can just zerg in and count on the cleric to keep them alive now. Its a bit lazier now..

[Talon_Moonshadow]

/sigh

of course we need balancing in a game.
And fantasy has no requirement to equal real life.....nor can most of us even agree on real life combat stats.

Add magic, and talking about RL weps is meaningless IMO.

But D&D was created so we can be fantasy chars.

Conan!
Legolas!

I have the right to be Legolas!

Now....the worst part of ranged combat right now, is that a fighter or barb who is not specced for ranged is so unbelievably gimped if they pull out a bow, that it's not even worth trying.

And it's even worse for a cleric or wizard.

Ranged combat needs to be fixed for the non-ranger a lot more than for the ranger.

If you actually take a ton of ranged feats, you can make a decent archer in DDO.
Unfortunately, he is still only about equal to the average melee guy (if that)......after totally specializing in his chosen form of combat.
That ain't right.

What I want to see most is for ranged combat to be sped up enough so that the barbs and pallies will pull out a bow when it is tactically sound to do so.

We have these gnoll archers, up on perches, laying into us, and our weapon expert fighters have no option at all to deal with them....when what they should do is for the whole part to whip out ranged weps and take down the bad guys.
Right now that would be futile at best, even if the player base wasn't so opposed to any tactic that takes more than a micro-second to pull off.

[Milolyen]

In D&D everyone (humanoid characters) starts with getting one attack per round. When you BAB hits +6 you are eligible for iterative attacks one at +6 to hit and another at +1 to hit if you do not move more than you are allowed to (normally a single 5 foot step). As you hit BAB +11 you get three and +16 gives you 4 attacks at +16, +11, +6 and +1 to hit.

Feats such as Rapid shots give you one extra attack at a penalty to hit (-2). Spells like haste can give an Extra Attack when you are getting a Full Attack. To be honest the Two Weapon Fighting Rules changed a number of times and I am not sure where they ended up, but in general when fighting level appropriate mobs with appropriate AC it was generally a wash or a losing proposition to use TWF if you had a good shield due to the penalties to HIT. IN DDO we have so many boosts to hit prob, plus the horribly inverted BAB scheme that to hit penalties are all but irrelevant most of the time.


So a Level 6 Ranger with Rapid Shot Feat and Under a Haste Spell could in PnP D&D fire off 4 arrows, with base hit probabilities of +6-2, +6-2, +1-2 and the Haste Bonus at +6-2. (The -2's are for using Rapid Shot). So 4 attacks at +4, +4 -1 and +4 to hit (before magic weapons, dex, other feats and spells.).

The Manyshot Feat allows mutiple arrows to be fired in one attack and was useful when you were not able to take a Full Attack. The to hit penalty depended on the quantity of arrows being fired.

The problem with this is that DDO is and is not really based on normal rounds. Sorry but a lvl 1 mage with a bab 0 makes his 1 swing faster than once every 6 seconds. If it took a full 6 seconds to make that swing this game would be SO SLOW it would really SUCK. Could you imagine takeing a full bab char from lvl 1 to 6 with only getting one swing every 6 seconds in this game? much less a 2/3's or what (is it 1/3 or 1/2)bab char? It would have turned a lot of gamers off due to how slow the fighting would be. Then at 16 you would be makeing the 4 swings in 6 seconds which would not be to bad and then you could apply the negatives to hit because while you are getting a smaller to hit you are swinging more in the same amount of time.

Okay so how bout we move it to 3 second rounds instead of 6 second rounds for game play. Now you are makeing 4 swings in 3 seconds ... not sure about you but would seem a little fast to me. Sorry but don't see anyone swinging a greatsword or greataxe 4 times in 3 seconds.

Then also there have been a lot of comparisions between how often you swing with a bab of 14 and a bab of 15 with the "extra" attack that have shown you are actually losing a swing or two over a min. Add in the fact that you are also takeing a hit to your to hit with those "extra" swings and you have a **** good reason not to have a higher bab.

Now back to topic I still feel that ranged combat is fine the way it is. Their should be a draw back to fighting from relative safety and if you are not relatively safe when ranging then you are not doing it right. You don't have to be a ranger to take manyshot, precise shot, improved precise shot and improve crit ranged and these are the feats that give ranged fighting a lot its power.

Milolyen

P.S. Talon the reason that the vast majority of the fighters, barbs and others do not is more to the fact that the mobs have so many hps that it is ineffective for a non-ranged spec char to whip out a bow. There is no way that a non-speciallized char should be able to range compairitivly to a ranged specced char. With that said I know a few that have a nice set of returners that really help in the cases you mentioned.