Please, stop posting build with the character planner layout!

[Borror0]

Yes, Ron made a wonderful tool.

Yes, It's quite handy to make a character.

But!!! When you're posting it on the forums, you probably want feedback. A build posted with the character planner is horribly hard to analyze. You have to scroll up and down for feats, look level by level for skills, if the enhancements where picked along the way we have to look at what was chosen. Then, we have to check at your starting stats... and figure out what are you end game stats. If you care about AC, we have to add it up for you. Then, we might want to do it for your HP and saves to have a good idea of what it will be.

Then, there is the issue of a build without text/comments... which makes a build hard to analyze too.

Sorry, I had to get out of my chest.
I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Borror0

PS: Again, I use the character planner and love it... but reading a build with that layout is horribly frustrating.

[geoffhanna]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

[cdbd3rd]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

...perhaps a nudge Ron's way to consider adding a 'concise summary output' of some sort. Maybe? Dunno what would be the best for someone trying to dissect a build, so no suggestions here either other than just that generally.

When I've used the planner, it makes sense to me because I'm right there as the character builds level by level. Looking at the final full output of an unfamiliar character can be confusing.

[Aspenor]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

[cdbd3rd]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

LOL!

Well, he did say "please"...

[Borror0]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

Aspenor, corner! Stop acting like you're tough and uber.

[Yaga_Nub]

Aspenor, corner! Stop acting like you're tough and uber.

Nobody puts Asp in the corner!

[Yaga_Nub]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

Or me!!!!!!

[Missing_Minds]

Or me!!!!!!

You can stop playing with the dead, Yaga. You smell bad enough as it is without adding thread necro.

[Borror0]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

Well, I can always give my layout as an example.

First, I start with comments about the build. What I want of the build. Do I want high AC, or do I want to dump it totally. UMD? Trapskills? Got 32 point buy, or you're stuck at 28? Is there anything we should know about the playstyle. Maybe it's a solo chracter. Maybe it's for a dedicated group. Telling us more about the goals you have in mind will help us giving the proper feedback.

[end game level break up] (example: 15 ranger/1 fighter)
Race:
Alignment:

Stats:
18 Str + 6 item + 4 level + 2 tome = 30 Str
8 Dex
18 Con + 6 item + 2 tome = 26 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Any comment about your stats that can be helppful should be added.

Feats:

• 1. Uber feat #1
• 3. Uber feat #2
• 6. Uber feat #3
• 9. Uber feat #4
• 12. Uber feat #5
• 15. Uber feat #6
• 15. Uber feat #7 (fighter)

Level order should go here.

Favored enemies for rangers should also be listed here.

Armor Class:
If you care at all about AC, list it here. Otherwise, don't bother with it.

Try to divide the AC in at least three columns:

• Unbuffed
• Self-buffed
• Burst

While maximum AC in the perfect party-make-up may make you feel uber, it is totally unhelpful. Same to know you can reach XX AC while you have your Action Boost or Uncanny Dodge active. While those are high numbers, their value is laughable at best. what really matters is knowing where you'l be 90+% of the time. This is where stuff like being part of a dedicated groups comes into play.

Skills:

Breakdown of skills that needs to be broke down like UMD, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, etc.
No one really cares about your end game Jump score, but knowing how high your UMD, Intimidate or rogue skills will be at matters.

You can do a level by level distribution of your skills, but that's optional.

• UMD:
  
  19 Ranks
  -1 Charisma bonus
  3 Golden Cartouche
  2 Head of Good Fortune
  4 Greater Heroism
  27 UMD
  
  
• Intimidate:
  19 Ranks
  -1 Charisma bonus
  15 Intimidate Helm
  2 Head of Good Fortune
  4 Greater Heroism
  39 Intimidate

Hit points:

Tell us if you're confortable with the amount. Only Include buffs you can maintain the whole quest.
Knowing your HPs with double Madtsone is not helpful... even less if you're a sorcerer.


Saving throws:

Base Saves:               +99    +99    +99
Enhanced abilites:        +0     +0     +0
Luck bonus:               +0     +0     +0 
DSD:                      +0     +0     +0
Resistance:               +0     +0     +0
Total Saves:             +99    +99    +99

Satisfied about the saves?! Other things not taken into consideration.

At the end, you can add your concerns overall about the build. What you want us to check more. If you wonder if +50 Intimidate is enough for [insert goal in here]. You may (or not) list your eng game gear, etc.

It's not perfect, there are other ways to do it... but it contains a lot more information... and it's much, much easier to look at.

[Dawnblade]

My guess is that people don't want to type more than they think they have to. The builder does it for them so they stick with what is easier for them. In the end it's their lost if they don't want to make it easier for the reader though.

So it's cool to show people the "best" way to do it. But if they don't want to just skip to the next build thread with a clearer layout.

[Borror0]

My guess is that people don't want to type more than they think they have to. The builder does it for them so they stick with what is easier for them. In the end it's their lost if they don't want to make it easier for the reader though.

Oh, I understand that... but don't be surprised when you receive less feedback.

So it's cool to show people the "best" way to do it. But if they don't want to just skip to the next build thread with a clearer layout.

It's not the "best" (it would be pretencious to assume so), but clearly a better way to do it.

And yes, that's what I do. But I feel bad for not helping the guy looking for feedback... even more when I receive a PM asking for help or when the OP or even the thread title contains my name. I'll probably look at the base stats, level distibution and replies. That's all. Whatever else there is, I won't look at it. Looking at a fighter when you have to scroll down to check all the feats is very, very painful and frustrating... if you didn't know.

[Dawnblade]

Just make a standarized reply letting them know it would be easier to read their build if they didn't use the builder and copy and paste that reply to any thread that does it. If they OP is really looking to get the best feedback he'll try to make it easier for people to do so....or at least I would hope.

I agree with you by the way. Looking at builds inside that little box is annoying.

[Ron]

Let me make comments as it pertains to coding and use. I like the format in general, but I see issues.

Issue #1 is that is does not satisty the second criteria (which is build reproduction).

Would you guys prefer, maybe, having two totally different sets of output? One for build reproduction (which stays essentially the same as it is now), and another closer to Borror0's format for build feedback? That might be a possibility to think about.

Well, I can always give my layout as an example.
First, I start with comments about the build. What I want of the build. Do I want high AC, or do I want to dump it totally. UMD? Trapskills? Got 32 point buy, or you're stuck at 28? Is there anything we should know about the playstyle. Maybe it's a solo chracter. Maybe it's for a dedicated group. Telling us more about the goals you have in mind will help us giving the proper feedback.

Obviously, this one's up to the user. The builder can't do it for you. Although I suppose there COULD be a section in the planner for "notes". Or, we just leave it up to the poster to fill them in.

[end game level break up] (example: 15 ranger/1 fighter)
Race:
Alignment:

Stats:
18 Str + 6 item + 4 level + 2 tome = 30 Str
8 Dex
18 Con + 6 item + 2 tome = 26 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Any comment about your stats that can be helppful should be added.

Alright, first issue. "+6 item". I have tried to add in equipment to the planner, with varying levels of success. But it does require the user to add in their equipment, and I've found a lot of people don't really bother (which, to be honest, is the big reason it hasn't been much of a priority). We could, alternatively, just give them a +0 to +6 option for each stat for equipment bonus.

Feats:

• 1. Uber feat #1
• 3. Uber feat #2
• 6. Uber feat #3
• 9. Uber feat #4
• 12. Uber feat #5
• 15. Uber feat #6
• 15. Uber feat #7 (fighter)

Level order should go here.

Favored enemies for rangers should also be listed here.

No issues here, looks good, and the planner could do this already with it's existing code.

Armor Class:
If you care at all about AC, list it here. Otherwise, don't bother with it.

Try to divide the AC in at least three columns:

• Unbuffed
• Self-buffed
• Burst

While maximum AC in the perfect party-make-up may make you feel uber, it is totally unhelpful. Same to know you can reach XX AC while you have your Action Boost or Uncanny Dodge active. While those are high numbers, their value is laughable at best. what really matters is knowing where you'l be 90+% of the time. This is where stuff like being part of a dedicated groups comes into play.

This would require some major coding. There is an AC calculator in the program, but it's not so good right now. Breaking things up like this would be quite a bit of effort invested in new and updated code (not saying that it couldn't be done, or even shouldn't be done, just saying, heh).

Skills:

Breakdown of skills that needs to be broke down like UMD, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, etc.
No one really cares about your end game Jump score, but knowing how high your UMD, Intimidate or rogue skills will be at matters.

You can do a level by level distribution of your skills, but that's optional.

• UMD:
  
  19 Ranks
  -1 Charisma bonus
  3 Golden Cartouche
  2 Head of Good Fortune
  4 Greater Heroism
  27 UMD
  
  
• Intimidate:
  19 Ranks
  -1 Charisma bonus
  15 Intimidate Helm
  2 Head of Good Fortune
  4 Greater Heroism
  39 Intimidate

Again, more equipment. Plus the situational bonuses. You see the problem I'm faced with. How do we get this equipment on the list? What bonuses do we display? Do we give a list of possible bonuses for each skill and let the user decide which ones to show? For that matter, how do we know what skills to display at all? Set up a series of 20 checkboxes?

The thing you have to remember, the harder it is to set up, the less it will be used. I see a potential UI nightmare here. There are too many variables. People won't use it. Already they don't use the output options I give them, and they are just a few checkboxes.

I think perhaps you may get an idea of WHY the forum output is in the format it's in, heh. But I'm open to suggestions.

The format you suggest would require some MAJOR revamps, not only to the output code, but to various parts of the planner, and I get a bad feeling it could get really complicated really fast for the users.

BTW, Borror0, someone has suggested adding a wiki style output as an option. It seems like a good idea to me. But I'm not a wiki expert. Would you be interested in collaberating on creating such an output?

[GeneralDiomedes]

The biggest improvement to readability would be to list feats/enhancements/etc. separately instead of listing it within each level. If people want to add more detail, then at least the have a readable skeleton to work with. If strict adherance to progression reproduction is still desired, then simply offer multiple output options.

Another suggestion to improve readability would be to omit the granted class feats.

[Ron]

The biggest improvement to readability would be to list feats/enhancements/etc. separately instead of listing it within each level. If people want to add more detail, then at least the have a readable skeleton to work with. If strict adherance to progression reproduction is still desired, then simply offer multiple output options.

Alright, doable. We split the output into two branches (three if we decide to do the wiki thing). Any other suggestions?

Another suggestion to improve readability would be to omit the granted class feats.

Already possible via checkbox. You see what I mean when I say that nobody uses the options that are already there

[Tanka]

A delineated output would be nice, yes, but it'd have to be something standard and not "check here for Option A, check here for B, check here for both, check here for..." That gets too overwhelming for the basic user and, well, some of us are lazy and would rather just copy/paste something than go through all those motions. Plus it's a nightmare on the UI.

One suggestion is something as minimal as Borro's output, and also adding in an Enhancement section where it says what Enhancement was taken at what level.

The gear part would be difficult to work in. Ron has been trying for a while, but with minimal success.

The other reason Ron's planner works well? Because not everybody knows HP/saves progression. His planner automates that, though it doesn't take into account items (which a knowledgeable user can add themselves, but a regular one probably won't ever bother).

So, yeah, the UI does make for hard build critiquing, but it also makes it easier for people to automate templates.

[RTN]

Alright, first issue. "+6 item". I have tried to add in equipment to the planner, with varying levels of success. But it does require the user to add in their equipment, and I've found a lot of people don't really bother (which, to be honest, is the big reason it hasn't been much of a priority). We could, alternatively, just give them a +0 to +6 option for each stat for equipment bonus.

Yes, please, I beg you!!! I could care less about adding named gear (except maybe raid gear w/ multiple things it affects). I'd dearly love to just have the ability to just add a +0 to +6. I'd prefer to be able to do that on a slot (i.e., select gloves, then STR then +5), but I'd take it anywhere I can get it, so long as it is reflected on saves, skills, etc.

Edit: And just let me say that I use your planner before making any character and find it extremely useful. That should preface any suggestion made. I really appreciate the time and effort you've put into this!

[ariel7]

Yes, Ron made a wonderful tool.

Yes, It's quite handy to make a character.

But!!! When you're posting it on the forums, you probably want feedback. A build posted with the character planner is horribly hard to analyze. You have to scroll up and down for feats, look level by level for skills, if the enhancements where picked along the way we have to look at what was chosen. Then, we have to check at your starting stats... and figure out what are you end game stats. If you care about AC, we have to add it up for you. Then, we might want to do it for your HP and saves to have a good idea of what it will be.

Then, there is the issue of a build without text/comments... which makes a build hard to analyze too.

Sorry, I had to get out of my chest.
I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Borror0


PS: Again, I use the character planner and love it... but reading a build with that layout is horribly frustrating.

Sorry, don't think your layout is any better, will continue using the character planner. Not sure if you realize this, but in your layout there was scrolling involved. FWIW, I like it, and will use it until I think something is better. I don't really care if that means one or two people don't give feedback.