Please, stop posting build with the character planner layout!

[Borror0]

Yes, Ron made a wonderful tool.

Yes, It's quite handy to make a character.

But!!! When you're posting it on the forums, you probably want feedback. A build posted with the character planner is horribly hard to analyze. You have to scroll up and down for feats, look level by level for skills, if the enhancements where picked along the way we have to look at what was chosen. Then, we have to check at your starting stats... and figure out what are you end game stats. If you care about AC, we have to add it up for you. Then, we might want to do it for your HP and saves to have a good idea of what it will be.

Then, there is the issue of a build without text/comments... which makes a build hard to analyze too.

Sorry, I had to get out of my chest.
I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Borror0

PS: Again, I use the character planner and love it... but reading a build with that layout is horribly frustrating.

[geoffhanna]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

[cdbd3rd]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

...perhaps a nudge Ron's way to consider adding a 'concise summary output' of some sort. Maybe? Dunno what would be the best for someone trying to dissect a build, so no suggestions here either other than just that generally.

When I've used the planner, it makes sense to me because I'm right there as the character builds level by level. Looking at the final full output of an unfamiliar character can be confusing.

[Aspenor]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

[cdbd3rd]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

LOL!

Well, he did say "please"...

[Borror0]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

Well, I can always give my layout as an example.

First, I start with comments about the build. What I want of the build. Do I want high AC, or do I want to dump it totally. UMD? Trapskills? Got 32 point buy, or you're stuck at 28? Is there anything we should know about the playstyle. Maybe it's a solo chracter. Maybe it's for a dedicated group. Telling us more about the goals you have in mind will help us giving the proper feedback.

[end game level break up] (example: 15 ranger/1 fighter)
Race:
Alignment:

Stats:
18 Str + 6 item + 4 level + 2 tome = 30 Str
8 Dex
18 Con + 6 item + 2 tome = 26 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Any comment about your stats that can be helppful should be added.

Feats:

• 1. Uber feat #1
• 3. Uber feat #2
• 6. Uber feat #3
• 9. Uber feat #4
• 12. Uber feat #5
• 15. Uber feat #6
• 15. Uber feat #7 (fighter)

Level order should go here.

Favored enemies for rangers should also be listed here.

Armor Class:
If you care at all about AC, list it here. Otherwise, don't bother with it.

Try to divide the AC in at least three columns:

• Unbuffed
• Self-buffed
• Burst

While maximum AC in the perfect party-make-up may make you feel uber, it is totally unhelpful. Same to know you can reach XX AC while you have your Action Boost or Uncanny Dodge active. While those are high numbers, their value is laughable at best. what really matters is knowing where you'l be 90+% of the time. This is where stuff like being part of a dedicated groups comes into play.

Skills:

Breakdown of skills that needs to be broke down like UMD, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, etc.
No one really cares about your end game Jump score, but knowing how high your UMD, Intimidate or rogue skills will be at matters.

You can do a level by level distribution of your skills, but that's optional.

• UMD:
  
  19 Ranks
  -1 Charisma bonus
  3 Golden Cartouche
  2 Head of Good Fortune
  4 Greater Heroism
  27 UMD
  
  
• Intimidate:
  19 Ranks
  -1 Charisma bonus
  15 Intimidate Helm
  2 Head of Good Fortune
  4 Greater Heroism
  39 Intimidate

Hit points:

Tell us if you're confortable with the amount. Only Include buffs you can maintain the whole quest.
Knowing your HPs with double Madtsone is not helpful... even less if you're a sorcerer.


Saving throws:

Base Saves:               +99    +99    +99
Enhanced abilites:        +0     +0     +0
Luck bonus:               +0     +0     +0 
DSD:                      +0     +0     +0
Resistance:               +0     +0     +0
Total Saves:             +99    +99    +99

Satisfied about the saves?! Other things not taken into consideration.

At the end, you can add your concerns overall about the build. What you want us to check more. If you wonder if +50 Intimidate is enough for [insert goal in here]. You may (or not) list your eng game gear, etc.

It's not perfect, there are other ways to do it... but it contains a lot more information... and it's much, much easier to look at.

[Dawnblade]

My guess is that people don't want to type more than they think they have to. The builder does it for them so they stick with what is easier for them. In the end it's their lost if they don't want to make it easier for the reader though.

So it's cool to show people the "best" way to do it. But if they don't want to just skip to the next build thread with a clearer layout.

[Borror0]

My guess is that people don't want to type more than they think they have to. The builder does it for them so they stick with what is easier for them. In the end it's their lost if they don't want to make it easier for the reader though.

Oh, I understand that... but don't be surprised when you receive less feedback.

So it's cool to show people the "best" way to do it. But if they don't want to just skip to the next build thread with a clearer layout.

It's not the "best" (it would be pretencious to assume so), but clearly a better way to do it.

And yes, that's what I do. But I feel bad for not helping the guy looking for feedback... even more when I receive a PM asking for help or when the OP or even the thread title contains my name. I'll probably look at the base stats, level distibution and replies. That's all. Whatever else there is, I won't look at it. Looking at a fighter when you have to scroll down to check all the feats is very, very painful and frustrating... if you didn't know.

[Borror0]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

Aspenor, corner! Stop acting like you're tough and uber.

[Dawnblade]

Just make a standarized reply letting them know it would be easier to read their build if they didn't use the builder and copy and paste that reply to any thread that does it. If they OP is really looking to get the best feedback he'll try to make it easier for people to do so....or at least I would hope.

I agree with you by the way. Looking at builds inside that little box is annoying.

[Borror0]

I agree with you by the way. Looking at builds inside that little box is annoying.

Some understood that the box is frustrating and copy/paste whatever was in the box out of the code tags. Problem is, the lack of layout still makes it hard to read.

[VonBek]

IIRC, Sigtrent uses an MS Word Doc to prep builds prior to posting. Makes me wonder if Ron could manage an "output file as" function. Perhaps with a couple of branches for "lump things this way", or "lump things that way". Leave the editing fanciness up to the user.

The idea gives Ron one suggestion, while providing users some basic options for presentation.

If any of the above has merit to someone, feel free to flesh it out.

[Shima-ra]

/clap loudly

I completly agree with Borror0

[ariel7]

Yes, Ron made a wonderful tool.

Yes, It's quite handy to make a character.

But!!! When you're posting it on the forums, you probably want feedback. A build posted with the character planner is horribly hard to analyze. You have to scroll up and down for feats, look level by level for skills, if the enhancements where picked along the way we have to look at what was chosen. Then, we have to check at your starting stats... and figure out what are you end game stats. If you care about AC, we have to add it up for you. Then, we might want to do it for your HP and saves to have a good idea of what it will be.

Then, there is the issue of a build without text/comments... which makes a build hard to analyze too.

Sorry, I had to get out of my chest.
I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Borror0


PS: Again, I use the character planner and love it... but reading a build with that layout is horribly frustrating.

Sorry, don't think your layout is any better, will continue using the character planner. Not sure if you realize this, but in your layout there was scrolling involved. FWIW, I like it, and will use it until I think something is better. I don't really care if that means one or two people don't give feedback.

[branmakmuffin]

I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Then stop doing it.

[Borror0]

Sorry, don't think your layout is any better, will continue using the character planner. Not sure if you realize this, but in your layout there was scrolling involved. FWIW, I like it, and will use it until I think something is better. I don't really care if that means one or two people don't give feedback.

There was scrolling, but only for each seperate part.

In my format, you can see all the feats without scrolling once! If you're using the character planner, it goes like this:

Ok, does he have Combat Expertise?
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Err.... no... *scroll, scroll, scroll*
Oh, he has 13 Int.
Ok, what about WF, GWF, WS and GWS
*scroll, scroll, scroll*
Ok, he has them... what about Dodge now.
*scroll, scroll, scroll*
Dah, he doesn't have enough Dex.
Ok, what about the other feats.
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Ok he has this and this...
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Oh, and that...
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Does he have that? *scroll, scroll, scroll*

Then, possibly the same for enhancements!

That's painful.

Then, I have figure out your saves, AC and HP!!! Trust me, if you like character planner, that means you have never analysed someone else's build.

[Illuminati]

I agree. TBH, I get quite a few emails, etc. a week to check out builds and I hate looking at those things. Id' rather they just copy paste the build.

[Borror0]

Then stop doing it.

People are asking me to check their build via PMs.

[DaveyCrockett]

Then stop doing it.

That is very nonconstructive. Borroro is one that people would WANT to check their builds.
All he is trying to accomplish is a guideline for posting builds that we can all agree on, and currently the Character Planner is not preferred. Perhaps we can get Ron to output something that is a 'standard'.

[Dawnblade]

Then stop doing it.

Always so enlightening!