2handed fighting = extinct?

[Aranticus]

what evidence do u speak of? all you've said so far has been

thf 6 attacks
twf 11 attacks

here are selected posts in this thread. you would have seen them if you read through the whole discussion

Slower, the sheer amount of weapon effects on greensteels make 2wf dps much better now. Now add the fact you can add stats and AC to it as well...yup, pretty gimp atm.

A player of equal skill and equal equipment level will do significantly more DPS going TWF than going THF. And if he should be aiming for effects to land he also will be extremely better going TWF again.

So for dedicated combat builds there is no reason to go THF. There may be other reasons to go THF, like style, roleplaying or some hybrid charcters who dont have the points to put into DEX, but from a combat effeciency standpoint THF is inferior.

I vorpal the teleporting devils in Vod. The other method that works there is wounding. Advantage twf over thf in both those cases.

Wounders are better in the hound then vorpals on the flensers, even if you are a slashing specced twf. Wounders also crush beholders and mind flayers..

Who cares about what weapon you use in the subterrane although I would recommend not using dps on orthons but that is about it...

Twf does more damage against red names. The combination of bard songs and two greeensteel weapons is obscene.

One big advantage that thf has over twf is that non ranger twf builds have to worry about dex whereas thf don't. General thf have higher con scores because they don't have to worry about dex and thus more hit points which is a nice defensive advantage.

[Aranticus]

and how are you going to measure part 4 damage when theres 12 people all capable of influencing the time it takes to bring him down. If you're suggesting all twf compared to all thf runs, GL finding that many THF's now with so many people share the same attitude. Much less a number of good players behind the builds. Want to let someone solo a round? You could break out a ruler and measure his hp bar on the screen. I've been shown or told nothing so far to prove that twf wipes the floor with thf other than it gets more attacks. Tend to forget that THF does more damage on each of its attacks.

best way is to go into vod, get the clerics to heal the twf and the thf and see who takes down a red named orthon 1st. then switch to vorpals and see who takes down a devil 1st

[BlackSteel]

here are selected posts in this thread. you would have seen them if you read through the whole discussion

um. care to show me how more weapon effects equals more damage? Just b/c your main hand has flaming burst, doesnt mean your offhand gets it too, its still just number of attacks. Unless a 1 handed weapon can two prefixes and two suffixes, I'm just not following you. Seeker applies to both, thats about it. So you get 3d6 in specials on every hit, well so does the THF, you happen to get about 20-25% more attacks, that 20% more along with 3d6 is hard pressed to make up for the 30-40 damage it loses on every hit for the THF.

Aside from Madds post about how he felt wounders were better in Hound than vorpals, all you've done is rehash the same old twf gets more attacks than thf. SHOW ME how more attacks equals more damage. Saying it doesnt make it true. Unless maybe if you click your heels together twice. But they've yet to add the red slippers of wishing into the game.

[BlackSteel]

best way is to go into vod, get the clerics to heal the twf and the thf and see who takes down a red named orthon 1st. then switch to vorpals and see who takes down a devil 1st

orthon I can see, thats very valid, but the first to vorpal? thats just funny

[maddmatt70]

that sounds like a royal pita to be honest, altho 1-3 runs should give u a good idea of how far he got taken down, measuring time is iffy b/c the time between rounds is dependent on how fast the devils get killed. I'm not following you on the same race thing. If the person was halfling would you tell them not to use halfling guile? Can the human not use his extra stat points? You kept crying apples and oranges earlier, but I've yet to see anyone say that when they argued rogue vs ranger vs barb dps for twf. Why is it different for THF? Theres a post several pages long about rogues having the max DPS, even at 75% sneaks, 50% sneaks they strike even. And noone cried that they were two different animals. Simply that maintaining sneaks at such high damage would be difficult and impractical. Was giving an example of build vs build, you can look at other posts to see how different weapons and posts hold up to each other. The max dps post in the barb forums has the percent difference between a dwarf with DA vs a human khopesh, etc.

That is poor math. We are comparing thf vs. twf not if warforged do more dps the humans and the same goes for classes - it must be the same. Statisticians would seek to isolate this result as much as it can be.

The devils are not an issue if you have enough party members to kill them and regardless it easy to isolate this to twf or thf one on pit fiend fight. The pit fiend does not regenerate hit points other then with a gnoll's healing and the twf or thf melee combatant can be on him when he flys down. damage can be reflected both in terms of the pit fiend's health loss per round and in total rounds. I don't think 1 run is sufficient evidence, but rather several runs is more sufficient. If enough people are interested and willing to invest the time it would be relatively easy to set this up. When faced with an empirically satisfactory measure you run for the hills so why I am not surprised.

[Aranticus]

that sounds like a royal pita to be honest, altho 1-3 runs should give u a good idea of how far he got taken down, measuring time is iffy b/c the time between rounds is dependent on how fast the devils get killed. I'm not following you on the same race thing. If the person was halfling would you tell them not to use halfling guile? Can the human not use his extra stat points? You kept crying apples and oranges earlier, but I've yet to see anyone say that when they argued rogue vs ranger vs barb dps for twf. Why is it different for THF? Theres a post several pages long about rogues having the max DPS, even at 75% sneaks, 50% sneaks they strike even. And noone cried that they were two different animals. Simply that maintaining sneaks at such high damage would be difficult and impractical. Was giving an example of build vs build, you can look at other posts to see how different weapons and posts hold up to each other. The max dps post in the barb forums has the percent difference between a dwarf with DA vs a human khopesh, etc.

you still dun see the flaw in your calculations. the thing we are discussing here is TWF vs THF. in order to find out which is better, everything has to be set to be a constant. this is different from the other discussions as they are only interested in finding out which combination produces the best results. we are dealing with different things here

[Aranticus]

if everyone started wearing pink bathrobes in game would u do so too?

if the pink bathrobes gave me +100 ac and +1000 damage, i would!

and again you failed to see the point. what kiwijoe was saying is that people deem twf to be more efficient that thf which is why they switch becoz ultimately, most players want the nastiest build they can lay their hands on.

if your pink bathrobe does not serve a purpose, no one would wear it! but if they were uber leet bathrobes, everyone will rush for one!

[Aranticus]

um. care to show me how more weapon effects equals more damage? Just b/c your main hand has flaming burst, doesnt mean your offhand gets it too, its still just number of attacks. Unless a 1 handed weapon can two prefixes and two suffixes, I'm just not following you. Seeker applies to both, thats about it. So you get 3d6 in specials on every hit, well so does the THF, you happen to get about 20-25% more attacks, that 20% more along with 3d6 is hard pressed to make up for the 30-40 damage it loses on every hit for the THF.

Aside from Madds post about how he felt wounders were better in Hound than vorpals, all you've done is rehash the same old twf gets more attacks than thf. SHOW ME how more attacks equals more damage. Saying it doesnt make it true. Unless maybe if you click your heels together twice. But they've yet to add the red slippers of wishing into the game.

since you like number crunching, go calculate how much additional damage a thf player will do with a pos pos pos greataxe and how much a twf will do with TWO pos pos pos khopeshes. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure how more attacks = more damage

ps: my SnB fighter has a 40+ damage bonus, my THF barb is sitting at 50+, the damage difference isnt as wide as you claim to be

[Aranticus]

orthon I can see, thats very valid, but the first to vorpal? thats just funny

the comparison of thf vs twf doesnt just include dps. one has to take into consideration of the other fighting modes. if vorpal is not valid, then switch to a wop! statistically, twf have more attacks and are thus likely to land a vorpal faster

[BlackSteel]

you still dun see the flaw in your calculations. the thing we are discussing here is TWF vs THF. in order to find out which is better, everything has to be set to be a constant. this is different from the other discussions as they are only interested in finding out which combination produces the best results. we are dealing with different things here

First of all, I took what was labeled the max dps twf barb build, and he's received alot props for his post, so why would I take the best of twf and purposely match it up agaisnt the not so best of THF? Because if you didnt go wf, you're not going to have that max damage potential on a 2 hander. Just like going twf with a wf barb would hurt as well unless you took the feats to compensate or didnt take all of your enhancements.

Second, I only posted numbers in response to a THF = doomed post. In order to show that its not at all. I could really care less which one really ends up on top, as I firmly believe they're very similar in actual DPS, I'm not really going to lose sleep over a few percent. What does irk me is this crazy notion that thf is that subpar in comparison. I've yet to run anything in game to make me believe this. Yes I've seen W/P in action, and wasn't that impressed, didnt seem that much more useful unless it was on elder earth eles.

[Aranticus]

First of all, I took what was labeled the max dps twf barb build, and he's received alot props for his post, so why would I take the best of twf and purposely match it up agaisnt the not so best of THF? Because if you didnt go wf, you're not going to have that max damage potential on a 2 hander. Just like going twf with a wf barb would hurt as well unless you took the feats to compensate or didnt take all of your enhancements.

Second, I only posted numbers in response to a THF = doomed post. In order to show that its not at all. I could really care less which one really ends up on top, as I firmly believe they're very similar in actual DPS, I'm not really going to lose sleep over a few percent. What does irk me is this crazy notion that thf is that subpar in comparison. I've yet to run anything in game to make me believe this. Yes I've seen W/P in action, and wasn't that impressed, didnt seem that much more useful unless it was on elder earth eles.

read this again

I think inflated mob hitpoints have savagely hurt 2handed fighting builds. Whilst a raging Barb. is still VERY useful for wacking Bosses, in general 2handed builds are massivly inferior to TWF's dual vorpalling/wounding/wp everything to death before you can DPS it with a great axe/sword.

Between tempest rangers and fingering sorcs. there is little point in swinging a dps 2hander least it be insta killed at 1/4 health

Time for a new 2handed fighting feat to even up the playing field I reckon.

you are out of point

[BlackSteel]

the comparison of thf vs twf doesnt just include dps. one has to take into consideration of the other fighting modes. if vorpal is not valid, then switch to a wop! statistically, twf have more attacks and are thus likely to land a vorpal faster

no, but playing the first to land a vorpal isnt valid at all. vorpals over a very very very large number of mobs would be, but that doesnt happen. So you killed 5 devils in part 2 shroud, and I killed 4. Congratulations. B/c thats what your extra attacks amount to.

[Aranticus]

no, but playing the first to land a vorpal isnt valid at all. vorpals over a very very very large number of mobs would be, but that doesnt happen. So you killed 5 devils in part 2 shroud, and I killed 4. Congratulations. B/c thats what your extra attacks amount to.

that why i suggested going wop. with wop or wounding even, they are less statistically random

[BlackSteel]

you are out of point[/QUOTE]

and what I tried to tell the original poster is that for the fighting style, he's not that far behind when using vorpals. Most scenarios that warrant w/p can also be vorpaled. Nor is banishing needed, and actually not that useful on elite content. Major point being that the scenarios that warrant nondps strategies are few and rare in comparison to those that dont. Even if they are all packed in the endgame raids it doesnt really matter, b/c in all those raids theres plenty more to do than just run around trying to gib mobs.

Would you tell a pure rogue or barb twf he's gimp for trying to vorpal mobs because he doesnt have tempest? Cause it sure sounds like it.

[Aranticus]

you are out of point

and what I tried to tell the original poster is that for the fighting style, he's not that far behind when using vorpals. Most scenarios that warrant w/p can also be vorpaled. Nor is banishing needed, and actually not that useful on elite content. Major point being that the scenarios that warrant nondps strategies are few and rare in comparison to those that dont. Even if they are all packed in the endgame raids it doesnt really matter, b/c in all those raids theres plenty more to do than just run around trying to gib mobs.

Would you tell a pure rogue or barb twf he's gimp for trying to vorpal mobs because he doesnt have tempest? Cause it sure sounds like it.[/QUOTE]

twf will get alot more kills than thf. this is statiscally proven.

as to class comparison, that is another issue all together. each class has their benefits which is needed to be taken into account before suggesting tempest is the best. build me a tempest battle cleric then

[BlackSteel]

twf will get alot more kills than thf. this is statiscally proven.:

when both are using nondps strategies, agreed. But theres not enough content in the game that requires this to be of consequence. Only a fool would try to vorpal an entire quest and expect to lead the kills, and w/p rapiers are not common fair, nor are they that much faster. Grabbing two more heads in part 2 shroud or VoD doesnt really matter, someone was bound to be the lucky 20 eventually, being 20% more likely to beat a SINGLE other person to the instakill is kinda moot. Cause theres normally what 7 or 8 people trying to do the same thing, my 130/1000 attacks is very near the same percent as your 170/1000 for party attempts in a minute. Anyone with a decent tohit can contribute decently when using nondps methods, they dont have to be TWF.

[Raithe]

Anyone with a decent tohit can contribute decently when using nondps methods, they dont have to be TWF.

A rather humorous remark for this thread. Wounding of Puncturing combined with Tempest/Crit Rage II is about 2.2 times the stat damage of its nearest non-WoP rival. Guess what? Weapon set DPS values range from about 70 hp/sec (1-handed or ranged ranger level 16) to about 160 hp/sec (lvl 16 pick/khopesh gtwf). That's a "huge" difference factor of 2.3.

I've been going over some numbers using jjflanigan's Weapon Comparison Tool just because poorly designed MMOs are fascinating, and it's pretty easy to spot where there is a huge problem.

It's with Rangers.

The problem is threefold:

1) Ram's Might. Let's give strength-based rangers a spell that is "Greater Weapon Specialization" for all weapon types combined with "Weapon Focus" for all weapon types? Who came up with that?
2) Tempest. 10% DPS boost that stacks with everything and works on all types of weapon damage.
3) Favored Enemy. A khopesh (or elf w/ rapier) wielding ranger can break 200 hp/sec against favored enemies, which is currently just about everything 16th level or higher.

The really sad part of this DPS nightmare is that it inspired so much bad strategy and bad gameplay. Zerg and slash mindsets, no damage mitigation through ranged attack, and large damage bursts causing synchronous killing to go awry.

[BlackSteel]

A rather humorous remark for this thread. Wounding of Puncturing combined with Tempest/Crit Rage II is about 2.2 times the stat damage of its nearest non-WoP rival. Guess what? Weapon set DPS values range from about 70 hp/sec (1-handed or ranged ranger level 16) to about 160 hp/sec (lvl 16 pick/khopesh gtwf). That's a "huge" difference factor of 2.3.

that was mostly in regards to epics, as anyone can roll a 20, or crit range with smite/banisher.

and madd, I dont think the pit fiend set up is a very good measurement, the orthon suggestion in VoD seems a much better evaluation, as you could actually race for orthon death instead of percieved movement on a health bar.

[BlackSteel]

tested attacks per minute for THF, got 65 during the duration of one haste potion, messed up and got the slow animation once. So that pretty much confirms the 130 a minute for mauls/greataxes over a minute. If someone would like to count their TWF I'll readjust if needed.

[GlassCannon]

Idiotic weaponry aside, Tempest Rangers and Two Handed Fighting Barbarians have close to the same DPS, provided both of them completely ignore Armor Class and go straight DPS. Barbarians have a better damage average due to Criticals, while Tempests make up for it in sheer number of attacks. When Displacement is added to the mix, Barbarian tends to come out in the lead, but only about 15% of the time, and by a small margin. Fighters spec'd for THF and Speed Boost tend to utterly trash the kill count in comparison(more damage and to-hit feats), leaving the TWF build in the distance.


Stop talking about weapons that are hard to get. Stop mentioning Shroud items. Stop the bulls*it and compare them with standard +5 weapons.
TWF builds tend to spend more feats to get near the same result a THF build does.

As for actual numbers, I and a great many more just don't care enough. I'll let you spend your precious time crunching, because I have a game to play and a life to get back to once I have had my fill of DDO. I don't turn this game into work, but I don't speak for those that frequent the forums and calculate the absolute maximum number of times you can tumble off an edge in an hour by doing just that, making a video of it, and studying the video.