improved twf v. improved crit: pierce

[CSFurious]

if you had to choose between those 2 feats for your pure rogue build which one would you choose

i have a 13 rogue/3 fighter

i am trying to stay absolutely pure with my halfling rogue

feats are/will be:

(1) least dm of healing

(3) weapon finesse

(6) twf

(9) lesser dm of healing

(12) greater dm of healing

(15) idk, either improved twf or improved crit: pierce

IMO those dm's are great for self-preservation when you have less than 250 hitpoints

i do not want to take a level of fighter, but i may have to go 13/3 & just lose one rogue feat & one sneak attack roll

any advice would be appreciated as i am almost level 6

thanks in advance

[Angelus_dead]

As to your specific question, I suspect that ITWF would be better than Imp Pierce, because as a pure halfling rogue you have a large sneak attack bonus (around 8d6+9+8 ~= 45) and you'll want as many chances to apply that bonus as possible.

But that's a hard question, especially if things like Puncturing rapiers come into the picture.

IMO those dm's are great for self-preservation when you have less than 250 hitpoints

As you can probably predict, a lot of people would say it's better to swap the 3 dragonmarks for ITWF, GTWF, and SF UMD, so you can use wands or heal scrolls for your self-preservation instead. I certainly think so.

[CSFurious]

yes, i am maxing out all halfling guile enhancements so attacking faster is a priority

as to heal scrolls, i do not think that it will be high enough for consistent casting, probably only 25 to 35 since i started with 8 chr

however, at end-game, i may switch the dm's out (they make leveling a lot easier though)

thanks, dude

[Pellegro]

You're debating your last feat.

My suggestion would be to just wait it out. When you get to that point, you'll have a good idea of whether or not you're hurting in teh "to hit" department or not. If not, take IC. If so, take ITWF. I suspect that you'll find you're hitting just fine and you'll want IC, but who knows.

As for the other suggestions ... I wouldn't suggest SF:UMD unless the 3 poitns makes a difference. You can figure out your UMD, and compare what 3 more does for you. I doubt it makes a difference.

I think the DMs are great. I've got em on a halfling wiz with 1 bard splash. I also have empowered healing, however. I get thousands of points of healing - enough to basically heal a sklled group through most lvl appropriate dungeons (just use the DMs in combat; use wands out of combat).

Enjoy your build. Looks fun.

[Vagabond]

I am looking at a similar situation, actually, and was thinking about posting.

However, my choice is IC:P or GTWF, which makes it a bit more difficult. I think GTWF will probably win out because of the extra number of attacks translating to extra chances to crit plus extra damage/sneak attacks.

Not sure how much ITWF will help though since it's on the third attack, whereas GTWF helps on the first/moving.

I am a healing specced wiz/rng/rog. It has confused the hell out of most people. 'I think we need a rogue' 'I just did delera's on elite...' And I rarely get credit 'AWESOME HEALS CLERIC'

But I can't think of a more awesome first 'main' for unlocking 1750 favor. I love my little ball of healing. I live through just an absolutely stupid amount of damage when soloing some quests. 'Okay, I just blew 400hp worth of dragonmarks on myself, but the lvl4 elite shaman's dead.'

Good times.

[Korvek]

yes, i am maxing out all halfling guile enhancements so attacking faster is a priority

as to heal scrolls, i do not think that it will be high enough for consistent casting, probably only 25 to 35 since i started with 8 chr

however, at end-game, i may switch the dm's out (they make leveling a lot easier though)

thanks, dude

Heal scrolls will probably be your best friend at higher levels, even with an 8 charisma, so make sure to keep yourself open to other feat possibilities.

19 ranks
2/3 charisma (basic +6 item/with +2 tome)
3/6 Shroud (6 once you upgrade to tier 3, depending on what you choose to craft first)
4 GH
2 HoGF
3/5 Cartouche/SFG
0/3 SF: UMD
33/42

Now naturally, that means that if you get pretty nice items, you won't need SF: UMD either.

[hydra_ex]

I would say just spalsh one tiny fighter level in there. Overall, you lose no sneak attack, and you can take both feats.

FYI, my opinion is probably biased, since I think dms are a total waste of a valuable feat slot.

Edit: Just looked up dragonmarks again, so now I have a full opinion. This is the hp value you will heal, assuming max feats and enhancements:

Heal 4/day - 110 x4
Cure Serious 6/day - 3d8+5/18.5 x4
Cure Light 8/day - 1d8+1/5.5 x8

440+74+44 = 558 hp/rest

Assuming greater devotion VI and only THREE healing enhancements, a 16th lvl cleric heals: 150+60% = 240hp per heal.
Assuming superior devotion VI and all four healing enhancements, a 16th lvl cleric heals: 150+90% = 285 per heal.
Therefore it takes a cleric only 50 mana to heal more than you can with all your dragonmarks, and only 25 mana to heal you to full health.

The only useful dragonmark is the one for heal, and it takes half of your allotments of those per rest to heal you to full health. A cure serious wounds potion will suffice for everything else. Furthermore, as Korvec said, you will be able to use heal scrolls with a very high accuracy, 100% accuracy with basic equipment and skill focus (assuming you replace a dm with it). IMHO, I would choose the folowing:

(1) skill focus: UMD
(3) weapon finesse
(6) twf
(9) itwf
(12) gtwf
(15) ic: pierce

if you choose to take a fighter lvl, take it at lvls: 5, 9, or 13, and take otwf as a bonus feat.

[Vagabond]

Your numbers are way, way off on those.

However, you are correct that halfling dragonmarks aren't worth it on a build like his. Now going elf for displacement may be another matter, though less significant if you have UMD.

[hydra_ex]

Your numbers are way, way off on those.

However, you are correct that halfling dragonmarks aren't worth it on a build like his. Now going elf for displacement may be another matter, though less significant if you have UMD.

How? Unless dragonmarks assume caster lvl as HD, then theyre right.

[Vagabond]

You get 5 Heals with maxed dragonmark enhancements (1+4/day extra)
You get 7 cure serious
You get 9 cure light
They do use character level in place of caster level. You Heal for 90 at lvl9.
You can equip a Superior Devotion VI item (and healing lore if you so desire) just like any cleric can.

It is not worth it for a pure melee character however.

I am a full dragonmark spec healer with devotion, metamagics, and multiclassed enhancements for healing improvements. My cure serious wounds hit for around 110 high end and I still have 80% more to increase them by with enhancements, feats, and gear. Your rogue having 8 100~ point instant heals in Delera's elite makes your cleric's life much easier and longer.

Not the best build by any means, not a raid build, but it's incredibly fun, insane soloability, and I don't think I'd want to play anything else on the road to 1750 favor because I haven't bought a healing wand or potion since lvl5.

However, on a pure melee character? No. You're correct that only the Heals will be really useful and that is way too many feats and enhancements.


And in zerging groups I am a fully capable haste bot too :v

I just wish my DC were higher so wraiths would stop resisting Heal. Not sure if it's CHA or WIS that helps dragonmark dc. Either way, there's no way to get it high enough to use offensively effectively. Maybe if I took heighten....

[Boldrin]

I personally would take the imp crit pierce in this situation, though I would find a way to have them both

[CSFurious]

i am level 7 now & all i will say is that just the least dm is great for a halfling rogue who likes to fight especially with PUG clerics

however, i think that the dm's may be switched out at end-game because as hydra explained they are pretty pointless if you play with a good cleric

as to heal scrolls, i got no time to be using scrolls when everything is getting punctured

after playing a drow & dwarven rogue to cap, all i will say is that the halfling rogue is the best race IMO for a rogue

all you need is a +3 holy dagger & +2 dagger of puncturing & a dwarf or monk to follow & you are going to be dangerous if you max out the sneak attack line (i finally found something useful for monks to do)

anyway, might splash some fighter for extra hp's

developing

later

[hydra_ex]

i am level 7 now & all i will say is that just the least dm is great for a halfling rogue who likes to fight especially with PUG clerics

however, i think that the dm's may be switched out at end-game because as hydra explained they are pretty pointless if you play with a good cleric

as to heal scrolls, i got no time to be using scrolls when everything is getting punctured

after playing a drow & dwarven rogue to cap, all i will say is that the halfling rogue is the best race IMO for a rogue

all you need is a +3 holy dagger & +2 dagger of puncturing & a dwarf or monk to follow & you are going to be dangerous if you max out the sneak attack line (i finally found something useful for monks to do)

anyway, might splash some fighter for extra hp's

developing

later

I can understand at lower lvls using dms a bit (I hope youve been saving up dragonshards), but once clerics seem to know their place, their useless.

[stoc]

I have a lvl 16 halfling rouge. I do not have ITWF I do however have ICP. I found that with a dex based rouge halfling your dex will be plenty high enough to hit anything you want to with relative ease. The trick is getting back out before you get poned

This is just my 2 copper however. Bottom line its your toon build it how you want to. Worst that will happen is you will respec a feat.

[CSFurious]

i already switched the least dm for toughness at level 7

i might actually stay pure (fighter is tempting though) & take another toughness feat, i like to get up close & extra hitpoints help

[Korvek]

I have a lvl 16 halfling rouge. I do not have ITWF I do however have ICP. I found that with a dex based rouge halfling your dex will be plenty high enough to hit anything you want to with relative ease. The trick is getting back out before you get poned

This is just my 2 copper however. Bottom line its your toon build it how you want to. Worst that will happen is you will respec a feat.

The benefit of ITWF isn't a reduction in penalties, it's an extra offhand attack.