Need to ease up on the ban of rogues...

[sephiroth1084]

Well, I took a chance the other night and brought along 2 rogues on a PUG Shroud run I was running, and a couple more people who had rogue mixed in, and we had nowhere near enough DPS to finish. The portals were taking forever (can't sneak attack those), and we couldn't take down the 4 lieutenants fast enough, because we could not leave just 2 people on any of them, and 3 people on the self-healers wasn't cutting it.

Next run through, took barbarians and rangers in those characters' slots, and we had no problem whatsoever. Now, I'm going to be playing a ranger/rogue that I'm leveling, will eventually get to the Shroud and don't want to get denied because of the heavy rogue levels, but it is certainly difficult to run with too many who aren't completely optimized.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

problem is that a lot of groups bring rangers for this

anyway, i actually see shroud groups now waiting not for a cleric or bard, but for another ranger

i do take on the fire elemental with my rogue with a ranger, it is fun

my how the worm has turned for rangers

I was on a run that failed (for several reason...mostly bad luck).

My Multi-classed rgr didn't really have enough DPS to take down the ellie by myself. But I stood face to face with him, alone most of the time, for what seemed like an hour! The casters could do the damage needed, but couldn't take the fireballs when they drew agro.
Just seems to me a great tactic would be 2 rogs, one of each side of him.
Guaranteed one of them will get SA damage, and both have evasion.
My 10th lvl Rog is by far my best DPS/lvl char. Rog SA damage rocks! I understand rogues are limted when they cannot get their SAs, but that is only part of that quest......and people seem to forget those Crit/Rage Brbs are limted there as well.

I think people fail to see all the possiblities, or even the obsticles. They just assume throwing a bigger barbarian and more clerics at any problem is the way to solve it.

[adamkatt]

We need to ease up the banning of rogues a little bit.

I tried to get in a well balanced shroud run today and was just flat out denied.

Maybe it's because bad ones had influenced the marketplace but people need to keep an open mind.

A well played, well equipped, well made rogue can benefit any party.

Don't just expect us to disarm traps in some but not include us in others.



/off my soap box now

Klatwo

Well your still posting so we can assume a least one rogue inst banned!

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Well, I took a chance the other night and brought along 2 rogues on a PUG Shroud run I was running, and a couple more people who had rogue mixed in, and we had nowhere near enough DPS to finish. The portals were taking forever (can't sneak attack those), and we couldn't take down the 4 lieutenants fast enough, because we could not leave just 2 people on any of them, and 3 people on the self-healers wasn't cutting it.

Next run through, took barbarians and rangers in those characters' slots, and we had no problem whatsoever. Now, I'm going to be playing a ranger/rogue that I'm leveling, will eventually get to the Shroud and don't want to get denied because of the heavy rogue levels, but it is certainly difficult to run with too many who aren't completely optimized.

I went in the other day on my cleric and we had 4 barbarians in the group, and we had practically no DPS it seemed. Only had him at 80% after round one, and it took 8 rounds before we finally wiped with Harry at 3%.

Now I'm not saying barbarians suck (although I'm not particularly fond of the average no AC moderate DPS barbarian), I'm merely trying to say that it's always a gamble. Sometimes you get good players/characters, sometimes the group just doesn't have it. Now, barbarians might be a little less of a risk, since it's hard to screw one up too badly, but you just have to understand that there are bad characters/players for every class, rather than get stuck thinking rogues can't help in there based on the performance of the average rogue.

The big thing with rogues isn't that rogues aren't good, it's that you take a big chance when you take one blindly. You might get a specced out DPS rogue, you might get a trapmonkey with 150 hp. When I make a group that needs to be strong in DPS (Vision, Shroud, etc), I usually send a simple tell if a rogue applies whom I'm not familiar with--something along the lines of "Are you a melee-rogue?" or "Are you a combat rogue?" This usually sorts out many rogues who don't fill the role I'm looking for. Other things I keep an eye out for are:

10 rogue/6 ranger builds, usually dwarf. Usually these people know what they are doing at the very least, having proven that they can implement a strong build. Almost always strong DPS characters.

Dwarf rogues in general who are usually strength based and specialized for combat.

Anything with a monk splash is usually piloted by an intelligent player who knows how to make a strong character.

Halfling rogues are kind of risky. They can be excellent players/characters who did halfling for the extra sneak attack damage, or they can be stray dungeon crawlers/light RPer types who just thought it would be fun to have a hobbit thief, and really can't fill a DPS role. I often send tells to these asking if they are specialized in combat.

Human or elf/drow rogues usually are squishy trap-monkey types, though humans can work well for a strength rogue given the +1 strength enhancement. I find that these are rarely characters that can provide a solid DPS base.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Just seems to me a great tactic would be 2 rogs, one of each side of him.
Guaranteed one of them will get SA damage, and both have evasion.

If only elementals were vulnerable to sneak attacks. :/

[CSFurious]

i think your post can be made much shorter, i.e., just think about where the player is going with the build (does it look intelligent?)

also, i always look at the guilds of players for the baseline

i also would disagree with your assessment of drow rogues, drow assassins are awesome, you should roll one up

additionally, well-played halflings are the most dangerous rogues of them all

dwarven rogues with those 100 extra hitpoints are the easy button of DDO

[Rowanheal]

*sputters*

WEAKSAUCE... I know you did NOT throw that in my direction... uh uh...

I have a ranger... if I want to, I will play her

Ok so its not uber damage... but I do my part... I am good player, good company and I even did a speed run or 5 LOL

And actually your point is the one we are arguing...

All types of players are welcome in the shroud... it seriously doesn't take much to complete it since we are all doing it in 20-30 minutes now *shrugs*

Besides... this is about fun...

I think...

Some of the players make me wonder sometimes

*ponders*

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

[Trixity]

Ah good, so we have narrowed it down to Dwarf rogues are the only good ones in combat.

Halflings are iffy..

and Human/Elf types are trap monkies and not for combat.


Good...I'm glad we narrowed down the point on this one.

[Vorn]

Ah good, so we have narrowed it down to Dwarf rogues are the only good ones in combat.

Halflings are iffy..

and Human/Elf types are trap monkies and not for combat.


Good...I'm glad we narrowed down the point on this one.

Hee, hee, which one are you, Klat?

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

i think your post can be made much shorter, i.e., just think about where the player is going with the build (does it look intelligent?)

LOL probably true. Once again, my wordiness gets the better of me.

also, i always look at the guilds of players for the baseline

Oh, definitely. I kind of lumped that in with "knowing the player" and forgot to mention "knowing the guild."

i also would disagree with your assessment of drow rogues, drow assassins are awesome, you should roll one up

And that is why I always send a tell before I flat-out decline people... I'm just saying that usually drow tend to be trapmonkeys rather than DPS characters.

additionally, well-played halflings are the most dangerous rogues of them all

Quite. As I mentioned, these are kind of wildcards--some are amazing characters/players with the extra sneak attack damage, but some are not.

dwarven rogues with those 100 extra hitpoints are the easy button of DDO

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Ah good, so we have narrowed it down to Dwarf rogues are the only good ones in combat.

Halflings are iffy..

and Human/Elf types are trap monkies and not for combat.


Good...I'm glad we narrowed down the point on this one.

That's not what I said at all. Maybe you ought to reread my post. I said that on average dwarf rogues are more reliably specced for DPS. I know quite well that they aren't the only ones good for combat. Halflings can get even more DPS via their enhancements, humans can get even more DPS via their strength, and elves can be very close. But most non-DPS rogues are also non-dwarf, so along with all the good non-dwarf rogues, you have a greater chance of picking up a character that isn't built for DPS if you pick up unknown non-dwarf rogues than if you pick up unknown dwarf rogues.

[CSFurious]

i had a dwarf 10 rogue/4 fighter who was deleted

he was not a rogue, quasi-tank

anyway, drow & halflings make the best rogues in my opinion

Ah good, so we have narrowed it down to Dwarf rogues are the only good ones in combat.

Halflings are iffy..

and Human/Elf types are trap monkies and not for combat.


Good...I'm glad we narrowed down the point on this one.

[jkm]

Human or elf/drow rogues usually are squishy trap-monkey types, though humans can work well for a strength rogue given the +1 strength enhancement. I find that these are rarely characters that can provide a solid DPS base.

oh, you are so on peppr's list for that comment...

[Cordelia]

You're problem isn't being a rogue, You're problem is ignorant people with a star.

Someone mentioned smoldering cudgels... Well a pure rogue could swing a couple smoldering cudgels at Harry and still out-dps some of the tanks, yellow zeros and all.

Anyway, it's fairly common for ignorant group leaders to decline rogues, second bards, multiclasses, and pretty much anyone who isnt a pure cleric or barbarian. I wouldn't worry about it. In almost every case these are not the groups you want to be in anyway. These are the same group leaders that take their jobs far too seriously... Micromanaging part 1, speaking down to people, overbuffing, and a host off other issues that accompany judgemental and overbearing group leaders.

The real experts dont have to exert themselves over people to overcome their own self-doubt and lack of experience. They a) likely have a rogue and know what kind of dps they are capable of, and b) have the leadership skills to take a variety of party types through the shroud in well under an hour without focusing the spotlight on themselves at all, nevermind the entire time.

Take some notes on who declines you and move on... They are, in fact, doing you a favour.

[Trixity]

Well said Cordelia....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If only elementals were vulnerable to sneak attacks. :/

Now you're gonna make me go check......but I guess I missed that one.
Might have been confusing some other red numbers popping up.

But hey, I'm trying to defend all those rogues out there......shhh...shhh.

[jkm]

doesn't the fire ellie only have a str of 10 mrcow? i know i've been with a caster who made him just stand there and take a beating before...

[Rameses]

There is a ban on Rogues? For the Shroud? Never really noticed.

I am, Rameses!

[Eugney]

<--- lvl 8 rogue rolled a hit for 80 dmg xD
<--- also with UMD did a cold rayu for 200 dmg

I think i do egnough dps

[rodgyramjet]

I play Suzuki 1 fighter 15 rogue.... and I hit for about 75 on a normal hit... How is that not dps ?

Ok fair enough ive seen a few rogues run around like a chook with their head cut off but I believe Rogues are the best DPS in the game. Obviously u cant sneak attack the portals, but with the right weapon, you still hit hard...

Heres a free tip... take rogue reduced threat 40%. Never get agro, always hit for full damage. Try it, delete ur tank and make a rogue.