Finesse: 14 strength or 12?

[krud]

Yes. You're missing the halfing strength penalty (making that cost 4 points and not 2) and the reason the dex is at an odd number. 3 points of dex from class enhancements would make the 18th point no better than 17, which is why the alternative is 17 and 14.

As for the response about charisma - that was already answered above. You don't have to put anything into charisma to net a total of +2 AC, +5 all saves and immunity to disease and fear.

Ah, my bad. In that case I would go 12str, 19dex. That 1pt less damage won't be a huge loss. However, (and this is just how I prefer to do things) I would still go 18 dex and use the 3 build points elsewhere. You'll still end up with a dex high enough to hit everything reliably. With multiclasses like this, I think you get more bang for your buck when you spend build points on the 1:1 stat increases than the 3:1 stat increase. If you end up with an odd dex at cap you can always drop the rgr dexIII enhancement and use those 6 AP elsewhere to help compensate.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Finally on the topic of favored enemy: There are a significant number of non-evil outsiders. Running with the Devils is a good example of a quest where you would not be covered by Evil Outsider.

I'd be willing to say that 90%(or more) of the "outsiders" in the game right now are evil. So far, it's not really shaping up to be a build i'd want to run, but as long as you're going to be happy with it....

[ShadowFox1978]

So you are basing your favored enemy choice on 1 mob in one quest? Go ahead come up with a second example of a non-evil outsider. Mephits don't count, they aren't covered under any favored enemy and elementals are their own class. I do not have the Eladrin as a favored enemy and I still hit them easily on my str ranger. You being a dex ranger will have an equal or better to hit(your higher dex and the fact that you are probably not taking a heavy offhand penalty.) The only one in that quest mildly challenging is the red-named paladin, and he can be handled using axiomatic weapons. In short if you want to base build choices off one mob in one quest(and one of the easiest quests at that), more power to you.

[Hadrian]

So you are basing your favored enemy choice on 1 mob in one quest? Go ahead come up with a second example of a non-evil outsider. Mephits don't count, they aren't covered under any favored enemy and elementals are their own class. I do not have the Eladrin as a favored enemy and I still hit them easily on my str ranger. You being a dex ranger will have an equal or better to hit(your higher dex and the fact that you are probably not taking a heavy offhand penalty.) The only one in that quest mildly challenging is the red-named paladin, and he can be handled using axiomatic weapons. In short if you want to base build choices off one mob in one quest(and one of the easiest quests at that), more power to you.

Djinni are various alingments. You can find non-evil ones in various quests starting with desert content. When someone says "for example" it's usually not intended to mean that it's the only possibility.

I could go with FE: Giant, but past gianthold I don't really know of any area where I am going to run into many giants. I'd rather cover myself for the 10% oddball non-evil outsiders that I will face compared to lower level giants that I won't really be dealing with.

[ShadowFox1978]

Djinni are various alingments. You can find non-evil ones in various quests starting with desert content. When someone says "for example" it's usually not intended to mean that it's the only possibility.

I could go with FE: Giant, but past gianthold I don't really know of any area where I am going to run into many giants. I'd rather cover myself for the 10% oddball non-evil outsiders that I will face compared to lower level giants that I won't really be dealing with.

You are using endgame as a reason against giant favored, but Gianthold and the Reaver are ran much more than desert content. There is very little variation in alignments of Djinni ( and please enlighten me as to which aren't LG or LE). Efreeti are CE. If raid boss isn't a good enough reason for favored giant, the troll in Shroud is a giant. It is hard to beat his regen on a char that is not a raging barb or a ranger with favored Giant. 4 favored enemies cover a vast majority of content and all but 2 raid bosses. I have been considering dropping undead as I don't run the Vale or Abbot stuff with him often enough for it to matter. If I drop undead, I would pick up abberation(flayers/beholders and I believe the puppy).

[Hadrian]

You are using endgame as a reason against giant favored, but Gianthold and the Reaver are ran much more than desert content. There is very little variation in alignments of Djinni ( and please enlighten me as to which aren't LG or LE). Efreeti are CE. If raid boss isn't a good enough reason for favored giant, the troll in Shroud is a giant. It is hard to beat his regen on a char that is not a raging barb or a ranger with favored Giant. 4 favored enemies cover a vast majority of content and all but 2 raid bosses. I have been considering dropping undead as I don't run the Vale or Abbot stuff with him often enough for it to matter. If I drop undead, I would pick up abberation(flayers/beholders and I believe the puppy).

Once again, an example is not meant to indicate the only possible existance. There are djinni in the vale, too. Just because I say that the first appearance of something is in a level 10-12 area doesn't mean that it is the only appearance, or that they do not come in higher levels.

yes, Efreeti are lawful evil. Djinni are chaotic good. This is in the generic definition of those two creature types.

And no, I am not planning my build around the Reaver raid. That has been trivial for quite a long time.

[rpasell]

Evil Outsider is still the better choice over Lawful. Evil Outsider covers Lawful Evil whereas Lawful Outsider covers...... well Lawful Good. Unless of course you are doing it for RP reasons. Evil Outsider covers almost everything in the 3 newest raids (Flensers, Reavers, Renders, The Hound, The Devil, and Arratrekos (sp?)) as well as The Queen.

Of course there is the unreleased content which we can guess will most likely include a big dose of Undead, Giants, or Outsiders.

Not only that, but if you find a tough Lawful Good mob later you can always respec.

[Hadrian]

Evil Outsider is still the better choice over Lawful. Evil Outsider covers Lawful Evil whereas Lawful Outsider covers...... well Lawful Good.

Well, no. Lawful would also cover lawful evil, and not just lawful good.

It wouldn't make any difference if I took chaotic and lawful or chaotic and evil, since all non-evil outsiders are either true neutral or chaotic good.

There are no neutral good or neutral evil outsiders, so I will have the same coverage either way.

[wamjratl1]

I would settle for 12 if using a race with racial dex like halfing. Dont splash too much you will want all your favored enemy levels and enhancements as that and rams might is gonna be where your DPS comes from, and consider power attack as well. No use being 80 AC if it looks like youre hitting things with a couple of tampons.

Unless he spent the feat for exotic tampon proficiency.

[Hadrian]

The original point of this post was to weigh the idea of 1 more AC and to hit and reflex save against the added damage.

While the combination of all three of those dexterity benefits looks obviously superior to just 1 added damage, I was considering the possibility of hitting a point of diminishing returns with dex. I decided to go with the added dexterity anyway since I can't really see the lack of one damage point being crippling, while I can always use more AC and reflex save.

[ShadowFox1978]

The original point of this post was to weigh the idea of 1 more AC and to hit and reflex save against the added damage.

While the combination of all three of those dexterity benefits looks obviously superior to just 1 added damage, I was considering the possibility of hitting a point of diminishing returns with dex. I decided to go with the added dexterity anyway since I can't really see the lack of one damage point being crippling, while I can always use more AC and reflex save.

Glad we could help

[rpasell]

Well, no. Lawful would also cover lawful evil, and not just lawful good.

It wouldn't make any difference if I took chaotic and lawful or chaotic and evil, since all non-evil outsiders are either true neutral or chaotic good.

There are no neutral good or neutral evil outsiders, so I will have the same coverage either way.

The point I was trying to make was Evil Outsiders covers Lawful Evil.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Hadrian]

The point I was trying to make was Evil Outsiders covers Lawful Evil.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I was trying to explain that, based on what alignments exist for outsiders in DDO, the coverage would be the same between chaotic and evil or chaotic and lawful. You seemed to be saying that there would be less coverage one way compared to the other, or I don't understand the point of your post.

[rpasell]

I was trying to explain that, based on what alignments exist for outsiders in DDO, the coverage would be the same between chaotic and evil or chaotic and lawful. You seemed to be saying that there would be less coverage one way compared to the other, or I don't understand the point of your post.

I'm saying that Evil Outsiders covers more relevant mobs than do Chaotic Outsiders or Lawful Outsiders.

Outside of the Eladrin, I can't think of another Outsider we fight on a regular basis that isn't covered by Evil Outsider.

Sorry to derail the thread, but I think the numbers would bear this out, being at work I don't have time at the moment to figure it out.

[Hadrian]

I'm saying that Evil Outsiders covers more relevant mobs than do Chaotic Outsiders or Lawful Outsiders.

Outside of the Eladrin, I can't think of another Outsider we fight on a regular basis that isn't covered by Evil Outsider.

Sorry to derail the thread, but I think the numbers would bear this out, being at work I don't have time at the moment to figure it out.

Well, I won't argue that there isn't a "most relevant" favored enemy feat out there, but there are other things that need to be covered too. Evil Outsider alone doesn't cover everything that I need covered. I am aware of what is and is not an evil outsider I have chosen my FE feats according to what I face most and what has DR that needs to be bypassed for effects to land.