Economy, PvP, and Potential

[DaveyCrockett]

my girlfriend and sister suggested D&D online,

You from Virginia?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

You from Virginia?

HA!

[JoePagano]

Raithe, thank you for the post - we seem to share a lot of the same opinions, although as you've been here longer you're probably able to speak with much more authority.

You from Virginia?

No, it just took two people to convince me to give this game a chance =D

I really, really want to love this game. I love D&D, I loved NWN, and I love the quests - most of them are highly polished and immersive. However, the current gameplay structure leaves little to do other than grind out exp and loot. I would've picked it up at launch and probably never dropped it, had there been some sort of competitive PVP element. I, like most other gamers, prefer a bit of variety - I really do like questing with groups and leveling, but I can only do that for so long.

Lucky for us, the economy in DDO has DEFLATED for quite some time now.

Except for the price on a W/P rapier.....that's skyrocketed.

However, I am not against all these ideas. I think his post is well thought out and should be seriously considered otherwise. I can't blame him for the days of 1 mil pp for a white scale or a vorpal

As I mentioned, I haven't been playing too long and thus I don't have too much information on the economy. That was my other gripe about it, knowledge of prices seems so exclusive, due to the lack of a developed AH system (no buy orders or price history), and for some reason it seems most people prefer to PM bids, rather thn post them publically.

A deflation on most gear does make sense, considering the newest untradable raid equipment released. However, the top tier equipment such as a W/P rapier, will only continue to get expensive - eventually it'll be near unpurchasable with platinum, unless the system's changed. As I conceeded earlier though, changes to the economy would be such a large overhaul in comparison to the changes necessary for PVP improvements that the economic improvements may be unreasonable at present.

[Alavatar]

Unfortunately, I do not have the time to respond to the full discussion. So I hope a short and sweet post will suffice.

But she is expressing her opinion in response to mine, calling it wrong. I defend my opinion by pointing out the flaws in her reasoning. I expect her to do the same for me. That's how debate works - some posters such as yourself get it =D

I'm surprised in your experience with MMOs you haven't learned yet that some people have their opinion, state it as such, and believe that to be the only way. When I find someone trying to debate with me, but not debating on a point-by-point discussion, I tend to stop debating with that person. Especially when they don't answer all of my counter-points to their points.

Anyways, I understand that your intentions are two-fold:
a) To increase the functions of the game in order to attract more players.
b) To increase the functions of the game to ensure your continued participation.

While your intent is diserable, many players in the DDO community do not like the proposed solution because of the points I mentioned earlier. I know you brought forth counter-points to my counter-points, but the belief held by many is essentially what I said in my summary. Those opinions are not easily changed and Turbine would risk alienating customers if they decided to implement a large FFA zone, even if rewards are purely aesthetic and the implementation is flawless. Many players simply do not want to be around PvP for various reasons (most are likely to be personal in nature). And is it better that Turbine sacrifice some obstinate customers in the hopes that other (potentially loud) customers can be acquired? That's not for me to decide.

Ultimately, though, Turbine has a business model. I suspect they have done market research and have the necessary data that supports their current choice of supporting or not supporting PvP. Whether it is because they believe the acquired customers is not worth the resources spent or the loss of existing customers I cannot know. But I believe Turbine will continue on the path they have set for themselves.

Raithe, you are right that I was not trying to say that DDO players unaminously do not want PvP. I was trying to say that PvP is not something agreed upon by the community. But this statement

Grinding for loot being the primary focus of the game, which you seem to hold as incapable of being usurped, is actually the root of everything that makes DDO something less than interesting for the majority of experienced D&D players who have tried it.

is false. Don't say majority unless you have the numbers to back it up. And don't insert comments that weren't made (such as the "which you seem to hold incapable of being usurped" comment), please. I basically said that if people wanted to PvP more then grind loot then they most likely would not be playing this game.

P.S. I have run into both polite and exceedingly obnoxious PvP and non-PvP players in my MMO experience. That is the only reason why I do not believe it fair to say "PvP players are rude" as a blanket statement. On the flip side, I do not think it fair to say "non-PvP players are rude" as a blanket statement, either.

P.P.S. I am an avid PnP player and have played several different MMOs as well as persistant worlds on NWN and NWN2 and have played all of ye-olde TSR AD&D video games. Do not make the assumption that my arguments are not based on experience.

[Uska]

I would hate to see any more time wasted on pvp then already has been there are already plenty of pvp types games already dont need to make ddo anymore like them then it is. I have played many games with pvp and most arent to my taste, and balance is always a problem was that way in SWG with people always screaming for balancing this vs that and very much so now in Conan(broken game) I really dont care for the majority of pvp type players I have seen in a dozen or so games I have tried a few a great and fun to compete against win or lose but most are hateful and spiteful and it doesnt matter if they win or lose its the same.

[esoitl]

Oh and OP, we already have individually instanced PvP zones.

Deathmatch and Capture the Flag both send you to instances. One is an awesome arena type dealio, where all spells work, another is the Menechetarrrausuana Desert...equally cool with lil cubby holes and corners to hide behind.

Each are open to up to 12 players, and you choose who goes on what team. One blue team one red team.

i wonder how many people actually use these??
the concept is interesting but even the PvP that is in game hardly seems used..... i'm sure it's not all due to 'lack of design' as well

by making Sorrow Dusk or 3BC as the OP suggest a PvP zone you are basically going to drive the non-PvP lot who wants to quest there out.... they just reworked 3BC, no sense making it a dead zone again

it seems there are two crowds on the PvP issue, those that are D&D fans who agree that it really has no purpose and doesn't belong in DDO and those that come over from another MMO like WOW and say "where's my PVP?? put it in now or the game is DooooooommmMMMEEDEDddddd"
for myself, any zone that would mimic WoW, UO, or any game with PvP of that style would never be seen
that is the worst kind IMO, it's not a contect between intelligence it's a contest between who can be more of a powergamer and get better items - it's just not fun in the least to me

there are a few posts asking for PvP but the majority of responses are the same: it has little to no place in DDO

sorry OP but yes, this is a rehash of many others ideas.... it's not original sorry to say as many times i have read a similar post, both the economics side of things and the PvP side of things
i understand the economics side of things, GP should mean more than it does and certain facets should get reworked to prevent abuse and make it a bit more balanced
crafting to some degree is on the way and i'm sure will be developed more in the future... we'll see how that works

[JoePagano]

I'm surprised in your experience with MMOs you haven't learned yet that some people have their opinion, state it as such, and believe that to be the only way. When I find someone trying to debate with me, but not debating on a point-by-point discussion, I tend to stop debating with that person. Especially when they don't answer all of my counter-points to their points.

But the purpose of a debate is to try to change opinions. Maybe I won't change hers - but I might change another non-participant's opinion who is following the topic.

While your intent is diserable, many players in the DDO community do not like the proposed solution because of the points I mentioned earlier. I know you brought forth counter-points to my counter-points, but the belief held by many is essentially what I said in my summary. Those opinions are not easily changed and Turbine would risk alienating customers if they decided to implement a large FFA zone, even if rewards are purely aesthetic and the implementation is flawless. Many players simply do not want to be around PvP for various reasons (most are likely to be personal in nature). And is it better that Turbine sacrifice some obstinate customers in the hopes that other (potentially loud) customers can be acquired? That's not for me to decide.

So then essentially, all it comes down to is an irrational fear of PVP by players within the community? I'm curious as to what the reactions of players was prior to the institution of PVP within taverns, and how many actually left because of that. A retooling of the current PVP system to allow for wagers and rule/opponent selection, along with fixes to the way that skills such as stealth work within said PVP areas, would have absolutely no effect on players who don't desire to participate - in essence, Turbine would just be substantially improving the system already in place. The only fear undispellable is the notion that improving PVP might draw more "rude, obnoxious" players to the game, but you've admitted to yourself that it's an invalid notion. In essence, it's prejudice - I could make some claim that all members of a race were obnoxious and rude, and shouldn't be allowed to play, and it'd be equally valid.

Ultimately, though, Turbine has a business model. I suspect they have done market research and have the necessary data that supports their current choice of supporting or not supporting PvP. Whether it is because they believe the acquired customers is not worth the resources spent or the loss of existing customers I cannot know. But I believe Turbine will continue on the path they have set for themselves.

Again, from the evidence I've shown I believe Turbine will drop DDO within the next few years if there isn't substantial improvement. The servers might stay up, but consider the facts: Turbine has halted development discussion, has released less content, has shut down Chinese servers, and is planning to merge their popular PC MMO's with a console version but leaving DDO out.

Are suggestions made likely to make a difference? No. But who knowns, a developer could stumble across it and become intruiged.

I would hate to see any more time wasted on pvp then already has been there are already plenty of pvp types games already dont need to make ddo anymore like them then it is. I have played many games with pvp and most arent to my taste, and balance is always a problem was that way in SWG with people always screaming for balancing this vs that and very much so now in Conan(broken game) I really dont care for the majority of pvp type players I have seen in a dozen or so games I have tried a few a great and fun to compete against win or lose but most are hateful and spiteful and it doesnt matter if they win or lose its the same.

The issue comes down to the decline of DDO as an MMO, and the potential customers a revamped PVP system (or other alternatives to loot grinding as capped activities) could bring into play. Please read through the read - I mentioned the time between updates, content of said updates, and evidence of Turbine dropping DDO above.

As I've said before, no one's talking about making questing areas PVP zones. There's a large difference between PVP throughout an area and pitting players against each other, such as in AoC and WoW, and the limited, optional PVP I'm discussing here.

i wonder how many people actually use these??
the concept is interesting but even the PvP that is in game hardly seems used..... i'm sure it's not all due to 'lack of design' as well

by making Sorrow Dusk or 3BC as the OP suggest a PvP zone you are basically going to drive the non-PvP lot who wants to quest there out.... they just reworked 3BC, no sense making it a dead zone again

it seems there are two crowds on the PvP issue, those that are D&D fans who agree that it really has no purpose and doesn't belong in DDO and those that come over from another MMO like WOW and say "where's my PVP?? put it in now or the game is DooooooommmMMMEEDEDddddd"
for myself, any zone that would mimic WoW, UO, or any game with PvP of that style would never be seen
that is the worst kind IMO, it's not a contect between intelligence it's a contest between who can be more of a powergamer and get better items - it's just not fun in the least to me

there are a few posts asking for PvP but the majority of responses are the same: it has little to no place in DDO

sorry OP but yes, this is a rehash of many others ideas.... it's not original sorry to say as many times i have read a similar post, both the economics side of things and the PvP side of things
i understand the economics side of things, GP should mean more than it does and certain facets should get reworked to prevent abuse and make it a bit more balanced
crafting to some degree is on the way and i'm sure will be developed more in the future... we'll see how that works

You misread. I said recycle those zones, instead of creating new zones, so that less development time would be spent on PVP improvements. I've said several times throughout the thread that I wouldn't support inserting PVP into any quest areas or public areas in the game, at all.

Please read the thread before you call it a rehash. No one here is calling for mandatory PVP - just optional, meaningful PVP as something to do for capped players. The changes discussed here would change nothing outside of the current PVP areas in the taverns - all I'm calling for is the ability to choose your opponent, to select rules, and for all skills to actual be usable (sneak/invisibility/backstab being the largest issue).

By fixing the worthless PVP pits they have in place now, Turbine could potentially draw many more customers with little effort, creating renewed interest in the game - this may bring developer interest back to DDO, and we might see more frequent, or more content filled updates.

[Uska]

But the purpose of a debate is to try to change opinions. Maybe I won't change hers - but I might change another non-participant's opinion who is following the topic.



So then essentially, all it comes down to is an irrational fear of PVP by players within the community? I'm curious as to what the reactions of players was prior to the institution of PVP within taverns, and how many actually left because of that. A retooling of the current PVP system to allow for wagers and rule/opponent selection, along with fixes to the way that skills such as stealth work within said PVP areas, would have absolutely no effect on players who don't desire to participate - in essence, Turbine would just be substantially improving the system already in place. The only fear undispellable is the notion that improving PVP might draw more "rude, obnoxious" players to the game, but you've admitted to yourself that it's an invalid notion. In essence, it's prejudice - I could make some claim that all members of a race were obnoxious and rude, and shouldn't be allowed to play, and it'd be equally valid.



Again, from the evidence I've shown I believe Turbine will drop DDO within the next few years if there isn't substantial improvement. The servers might stay up, but consider the facts: Turbine has halted development discussion, has released less content, has shut down Chinese servers, and is planning to merge their popular PC MMO's with a console version but leaving DDO out.

Are suggestions made likely to make a difference? No. But who knowns, a developer could stumble across it and become intruiged.




The issue comes down to the decline of DDO as an MMO, and the potential customers a revamped PVP system (or other alternatives to loot grinding as capped activities) could bring into play. Please read through the read - I mentioned the time between updates, content of said updates, and evidence of Turbine dropping DDO above.

As I've said before, no one's talking about making questing areas PVP zones. There's a large difference between PVP throughout an area and pitting players against each other, such as in AoC and WoW, and the limited, optional PVP I'm discussing here.



You misread. I said recycle those zones, instead of creating new zones, so that less development time would be spent on PVP improvements. I've said several times throughout the thread that I wouldn't support inserting PVP into any quest areas or public areas in the game, at all.

Please read the thread before you call it a rehash. No one here is calling for mandatory PVP - just optional, meaningful PVP as something to do for capped players. The changes discussed here would change nothing outside of the current PVP areas in the taverns - all I'm calling for is the ability to choose your opponent, to select rules, and for all skills to actual be usable (sneak/invisibility/backstab being the largest issue).

By fixing the worthless PVP pits they have in place now, Turbine could potentially draw many more customers with little effort, creating renewed interest in the game - this may bring developer interest back to DDO, and we might see more frequent, or more content filled updates.

No most of long term people are here because there is no pvp like you want they would lose more then they would gain. and no I dont fear pvp in pre-nge swg I had hundreds of jedi and other pvp kills and have my fill. For pvp to be as you say it meaningful you would have to have some kind of reward and that makes it almost mandatory. In swg they could have added deco items like you opponets head or something but here you have no place for trophies. You just got here so I would wait until you have sometime in before I would go around say what the game needs to save it. AoC has pvp and is lossing players like vanguard did so pvp doesnt always help. I play ddo as its the nearest thing to dnd for me, even more so then nwn as I can play with a group and hear them talking its almost like being at the old kitchen table. PVP like what you what would kill what ddo is You say it would add for capped players ha I still play my capped characters so I dont need it. Just because you like means its a good idea.

[esoitl]

INTRODUCTION:

The PvP aspect of the game needs to be re-addressed. I don't think it would take very much effort, just more thought and planning needs to go into it. The current "Bar-room Brawl" scenario is extremely limited in size, purpose, and organization. There's no way to control who you're fighting, how many people you're fighting, or the rules of the fight. The arenas are diminutive and bland in comparison to the vast areas such as Three Barrel Cove or Sorrowdusk Isle - why not simply reuse one of those zones?

Whether an existing zone is re-used, or a new zone is created, a seperate zone is almost necessary - matches are for nothing but screwing around at this point. If players traveled to a different zone for combat, it would eliminate the tavern food issue, and would allow clearer distinction between friend and foe. As it stands currently, players are simply able to target each other with hostile attacks when they enter a PvP area. If a seperate instance were to be used for PvP, the mechanics for sneak/invisiblity could be altered for that instance to fix them for combat. As it stands, it's a little rediculous that entire builds are worthless in PvP due to faulty mechanics.
.

You misread. I said recycle those zones, instead of creating new zones, so that less development time would be spent on PVP improvements. I've said several times throughout the thread that I wouldn't support inserting PVP into any quest areas or public areas in the game, at all.

Please read the thread before you call it a rehash. No one here is calling for mandatory PVP - just optional, meaningful PVP as something to do for capped players. The changes discussed here would change nothing outside of the current PVP areas in the taverns - all I'm calling for is the ability to choose your opponent, to select rules, and for all skills to actual be usable (sneak/invisibility/backstab being the largest issue).

By fixing the worthless PVP pits they have in place now, Turbine could potentially draw many more customers with little effort, creating renewed interest in the game - this may bring developer interest back to DDO, and we might see more frequent, or more content filled updates.

maybe you should recall what you wrote....
fixing the PvP zones is one thing but you stated in your OP that 3BC or Sorrow Dusk could be a PvP area... as i said, that would drive a lot of people out of those areas for questing

trust me, i read your whole post through and trust me when i say this - IT'S A REHASH!!!!

you haven't been around for long, you said that in your OP, i've been here for a little over a year and been on the forums for maybe 7-8 months and i have seen plenty - PLENTY - of posts from people like yourself who have transferred from another MMO trying to rally for what that game offered whether it was PvP or economy

IT'S BEEN DONE, talked about, beat like a dead horse, etc....
PvP in DDO is a slightly newer thing, it took some time to even get the tavern areas established so they have been making some progress putting it into the game but obviously not a major focus of Turbine

trust me, there have been many suggestions, not bad ones including yours, but to the majority of the crowd it seems, PvP is either unwelcome or unwanted
one reason why i QUIT other MMO's is the PvP and it's lack of control - it's sickening at times

if your expecting this post to hasten the process, don't hold your breath.... as i said, it's been a long time getting what is here albeit it's not a lot

if you stick around the forums look in maybe a month or slightly longer and you'll see a post similar to this about something that is lacking in DDO that is in another game whether it be guild houses, mounts, PvP, economy, etc....

[JoePagano]

maybe you should recall what you wrote....
fixing the PvP zones is one thing but you stated in your OP that 3BC or Sorrow Dusk could be a PvP area... as i said, that would drive a lot of people out of those areas for questing

No, I said reuse them as PVP zones. Please stop trying to twist what I said, and admit you didn't take your time reading it. Also, from the thread:

You seem to feel I'm suggesting that the game become PVP-"Focused." I fail to see how having a single zone where people can engage in PvP focuses the entire MMO on PVP. No one is talking about universal PVP in all zones, or making PVP mandatory, or making special loot with Potency IX only availabe through PVP - just to make it usable, polished, and meaningful. It's kind of ironic that the people who rail against PVP as a haven for the immature and childish would be so obstinate as to consider any inclusion of it at all a drastic change and a betrayal by Turbine. How much do the bar-room brawls really affect you ingame, if I may ask? Would they affect you more, or less, if they occured in an entirely different instance? Get your head out of the sand, and look at the evidence - DDO needs more features to appeal to a wider audience.

I could virtually copy paste what you "responded" to, and it would still equally apply. No one is talking about refocusing the game entirely, or making PVP mandatory, or offering unique high end loot from PVP, or anything else that would require you to engage in PVP. All we're discussing is allowing it as a meaningful option for gameplay. Stop quoting me if you're not going to actually address the points I'm making. Respect is not synonymous with agreement - however, I have little respect for those who blatantly disregard my own opinions. I have responded to every point you have made - please show me a similar courtesy.

trust me, i read your whole post through and trust me when i say this - IT'S A REHASH!!!!

Apparently you didn't, or at least you didn't slow down to think about it before you started bashing it. Did you read the thread as well?

you haven't been around for long, you said that in your OP, i've been here for a little over a year and been on the forums for maybe 7-8 months and i have seen plenty - PLENTY - of posts from people like yourself who have transferred from another MMO trying to rally for what that game offered whether it was PvP or economy

IT'S BEEN DONE, talked about, beat like a dead horse, etc....
PvP in DDO is a slightly newer thing, it took some time to even get the tavern areas established so they have been making some progress putting it into the game but obviously not a major focus of Turbine

Would you rather have a dead game, than a dead horse argument?

trust me, there have been many suggestions, not bad ones including yours, but to the majority of the crowd it seems, PvP is either unwelcome or unwanted
one reason why i QUIT other MMO's is the PvP and it's lack of control - it's sickening at times

if your expecting this post to hasten the process, don't hold your breath.... as i said, it's been a long time getting what is here albeit it's not a lot

if you stick around the forums look in maybe a month or slightly longer and you'll see a post similar to this about something that is lacking in DDO that is in another game whether it be guild houses, mounts, PvP, economy, etc....

The point of this post isn't to convince Turbine. It's to engage those people potentially on the fence of the issue, and perhaps sway more people to favor improvements in other facets of DDO. Convince enough of the fanbase, and Turbine might do something about it - of course it's not guaranteed, but it's better than not trying.

If it's been discussed before, it wasn't discussed enough, or with the same points - or so much of the community still wouldn't hold irrational fears as primary reasons for not improving the system already in place.

No most of long term people are here because there is no pvp like you want they would lose more then they would gain.

Again, I ask, how many people left because of the bar-room brawls? Do you really think that caused anyone to quit? This change would still leave PVP completely optional.

and no I dont fear pvp in pre-nge swg I had hundreds of jedi and other pvp kills and have my fill. For pvp to be as you say it meaningful you would have to have some kind of reward and that makes it almost mandatory. In swg they could have added deco items like you opponets head or something but here you have no place for trophies.

Again, read the thread. This was discussed and addressed multiple times - even in the first post. My primary suggestion would be a formal method of wagering/betting between players, although I've seen aesthetic rewards work as well. You mention they may not work - I agree. Let people bet, that's always popular.

You just got here so I would wait until you have sometime in before I would go around say what the game needs to save it. AoC has pvp and is lossing players like vanguard did so pvp doesnt always help. I play ddo as its the nearest thing to dnd for me, even more so then nwn as I can play with a group and hear them talking its almost like being at the old kitchen table. PVP like what you what would kill what ddo is You say it would add for capped players ha I still play my capped characters so I dont need it. Just because you like means its a good idea.

Please stop dodging the question: how would it kill DDO? What would a completely optional, segregated activity do to you? Just because I'm new doesn't mean I can't make suggestions - I've played at least half a dozen different MMO's, and none of them are as dead as DDO is. As I said, I really want to love this game - it's tough to justify continuing to pay for it though, considering the dropping frequency of updates and Turbine's continued decline in interest.

[Aspenor]

Uska, the idea that PVP would make DDO a dead game is irrational and ignorant. It would have no affect on the status quo.

The minute that, however, PVP offers rewards that are unobtainable through non-PVP avenues, then it would become a problem, IMHO.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Please stop dodging the question: how would it kill DDO? What would a completely optional, segregated activity do to you? Just because I'm new doesn't mean I can't make suggestions - I've played at least half a dozen different MMO's, and none of them are as dead as DDO is. As I said, I really want to love this game - it's tough to justify continuing to pay for it though, considering the dropping frequency of updates and Turbine's continued decline in interest.

It wastes dev time. As people have told you repeatedly in this thread, its better that dev time go towards finishing the core game (L20, flushing out the missing spells and feats, more quests, etc)

[Aspenor]

It wastes dev time. As people have told you repeatedly in this thread, its better that dev time go towards finishing the core game (L20, flushing out the missing spells and feats, more quests, etc)

Playing the devil's advocate here....

I severely doubt the same individuals coding new spells/feats/levels are the same individuals coding zones, geography, art, etc.

[JoePagano]

Playing the devil's advocate here....

I severely doubt the same individuals coding new spells/feats/levels are the same individuals coding zones, geography, art, etc.

Not only is that statement likely true, but consider the relative time taken between a simple interface update and a couple of bug fixes, in comparison to the time invested in creating a whole dungeon with unique mobs and, scripts, events, etc.

Also, my primary point for advocating PVP is the fact that with the increased subscriptions end-game activities such as optional PVP could bring, renewed interest by Turbine may bring about more frequent and/or content-filled updates in the future.

All of the above stated by myself has been mentioned prior in the thread, as the continued rebuttal to the repeated "IT WASTES DEV TIME!!1!" Please note the evidence I posted suggesting that DDO is in a steady, sharp decline - DDO needs actual gameplay improvement, not just new content. That means new activities for capped characters, and at present DDO is severely lacking in competitive modes of play. PVP could be improved to a meaningful, subscription drawing status with little developer time, relative to how much time is spent on new quests and spells.

I'll be out until later tonight, but I will respond to any comments left at that point. Again, as I said earlier I'm open to alternative reasonable suggestions other than PVP for competitive content (or really any content other than grinding), but none have been provided thus far.

[Aspenor]

Not only is that statement likely true, but consider the relative time taken between a simple interface update and a couple of bug fixes, in comparison to the time invested in creating a whole dungeon with unique mobs and, scripts, events, etc.

Also, my primary point for advocating PVP is the fact that with the increased subscriptions end-game activities such as optional PVP could bring, renewed interest by Turbine may bring about more frequent and/or content-filled updates in the future.

All of the above stated by myself has been mentioned prior in the thread, as the continued rebuttal to the repeated "IT WASTES DEV TIME!!1!"

Since you're new here, I'll let you in on something else.

Not long ago the developers coded the marketplace to allow for PvE. Sure, it was a fairly significant expenditure of resources, but they also were working on the anniversary event at that time (the new marketplace was part of it).

Changing a couple instances to allow for PvP, which already allow PvE, would probably only take a marginal amount of extra time.

[Alavatar]

I wish the forums went back further then 4 months so I could show you the old giant PvP thread and PvP forum that was used around the October-November 2006 timeframe when the Arena and Tavern Brawls were being developed. Unfortunately, they deleted that forum so I can't show you.

Basically, it was a giant thread of at least 100+ pages discussing PvP. Many of the community members did not want PvP in any shape or form added to DDO (I was/am one of those people). In fact, there were also several player initiated polls attempting to find out how many of the Forum community wanted PvP and it was found that, at that time, a marginal majority of the forum community did not want PvP.

Also in fact, I did quit DDO for about 6-7 months after they implemented the small amount of PvP in Mod 3 (I think). Only when I was assured that PvP was not being utilized did I decide to come back.

Yes, this is a rehash of discussion. Yes, it has all been talked about before. Yes, the development team did implement as much PvP as they dared. No, I doubt Turbine will add any more PvP development time on DDO.

We are not privvy to Turbine's business data. It is up to them how they want to interpret that data.

P.S. Turbine was secretive before. The WDA that they had was actually initiated by the old Community focal back in the middle of 2007 I think, so the elimination of the WDA is just going back to the way things were.

[Kalari]

Whew that was a lot to read and digest. Now to the OP as a player who only started a few months ago myself, I to have found myself thinking of ways the game could be improved just a bit. And while im not a fan of pvp I can understand why some players may appeal to that kind of action. Id would rather it be on its own server though. I have to agree with the doctor from my experience in other games not even mmo's mind you. When you have the player vs player aspect you are bound to get those who tend to flex their game muscle and inflict their uberness on those who they deem weaker.

Would I like to believe that would not happen in this game? Sure but im smart enough to know that if the game ever brought pvp out of the settings we currently have it or made it server wide there would be plenty of issues that would drive many long term subscribers away. Now im not saying this is what you proposed so please dont read it as such. I just think pvp could be something to looked at down the road. We still need more things that encourages not only the group aspects that many of us pencil and paper D&D players love.

Ive suggested things as camping out areas in outdoor wilderness areas. Im holding out hopes for housing and more emotes. Why? because this game needs something that even pvp cannot touch in my opinion. The ability to actually create stories within the game just like campaigning with your friends during a d&d session. To me its all well that some players want to fight each other, and if they did put a pvp aspect id love to see rogues with the ability to pickpocket and loot freely. But even if that happens because it will ruffle a lot of feathers id love to see it happen only after more role play aspects are put into this game.

DDO is unique because of its layout the quests and all but to me the aura of making your own story that Ive gotten from pen and paper isnt there yet. My hope is that it will be, and while you may long for the brawling you got in your pnp games I long for the ability to hold mystery parties, have seiges (if we get fort or castle like housing) and the like.


To address the heated topic of the economy, other posters have said it and its true. It is the player base that makes this economy out of wack. Even if everyone had an equal shot at certain loot, there will always be newer casual players who do not know this. They see the big boys with shinny gear and want it fast. So they go to the AH see the ridiculous prices and either farm their asses off for the plat or run to the plat farmers and drop some real dough for some plat to buy the items. And because of that you have it where plat farmers can spam us ever ten mins. And as someone who has used the AH recently to make money from my collectibles I see that many players casual or no just do not want to run around collecting collectibles. And will pay insane amounts of money just for stuff that if you started picking up when you first played the game and didnt turn in to the npcs youd have an abundance of items.

It really is the player base that stems the economy, and the new death penalty now hits us where it truly hurts. Anyone with a good knowledge of the game could avoid the xp penalty that used to happen when you died. But having a 2000k plus repair bill for your good gear or having to bind stuff just so you dont damage it beyond repair hurts abit more.

So to the OP im glad your looking for ways to make the game richer, I hope the game does not become stale to you. I still enjoy many aspects of this game and while I wish for more things to be added ive learned to be patient.

[GreyRogue]

This is the most civil pro-/anti-PvP thread I can remember from 2+ years of browsing the forums. That isn't saying much, though.

My take on PvP is that I don't want to ever feel like I have to participate to get something to make my PvE questing possible/easier/whatever. I personally have just about zero interest in beating up other heroes, but I can understand that reasonable people can disagree on this point. I like the suggested wager system for this reason. It allows the winner of a PvP match to be rewarded, but it does not create a reward unavailable to players like me who play DDO for its main strength--the excellent quests. The only other concern I have about PvP is how much developer time would be required to make substantial improvements to the system. I would rather have game system designers working on enhancing PvE play, personally, but I wouldn't be against a small amount of development time being spent on some sort of PvP improvements. We can speculate all we want about how much time or effort it would take Turbine to produce a particular PvP system, but we really don't know. All we can do is state our opinions on the matter and trust Tolero to aggregate our feedback and pass it on to the powers that be.

I think concern about the economy is premature. Prices on high-end items have gone up since launch (I mean that the absolute platinum required to purchase what is currently considered to be high-end gear is higher than the absolute platinum required to purchase what was considered to be high-end gear in the past). This is most likely due to an increased amount of money floating around in characters' inventories. However, the other side of "faucet-drain" inflation has to do with items. In DDO, some of the most sought-after tradeable items are randomly generated by chests or end rewards. For example, a WoP rapier or +5 mithral full plate can be found in high level chests or as end rewards for a variety of high level missions. Sure, there is more money around as players loot more chests, but there are also more high-end items around. As Aspenor pointed out a few posts above, prices of a lot of specific items, (+1 tomes come to mind) have fallen dramatically. So far, the money in/money out and items in/items out seem to be relatively balanced. Granted, there is price inflation on whatever is considered to be the best gear out there, but that only really affects the powergamers who feel like they need that extra +1 over the next thing down. (I'm not knocking powergamers here; I can easily understand the enjoyment to be had in acquiring the absolute best gear.) The new or casual player without millions of plat is actually more able now to buy good gear as he or she levels up because prices of good-but-not-great stuff have fallen.

[Mockduck]

I don't want to get into the PvP vs. non-PvP debate. Some people will leave if PvP is boosted (waste of dev time, etc), some will leave if it isn't. That's the way of things. I'd rather see a focus on questing and like the fact that PvP offers little benefit. I'd be into giving PvP folks a separate instance of outdoor areas to do their thing if they wanted that though.

Only things I'd add:

- Turbine didn't shut down the Chinese servers. What happened is still up in the air, but it appears that the decision to shut things down was a decision made by Shanda based on a number of factors.

- The game doesn't appear to be dying. Anecdotal evidence shows an increase in the player base since Christmas.

- The OP mentioned that other games release new content weekly. Is that new content as extensive (aka - half a dozen or so quests, a raid, major changes to the core program, skills, etc)? Or would it be similar to releasing the four month content in tiny chunks every week?

[Mithran]

Also, my primary point for advocating PVP is the fact that with the increased subscriptions end-game activities such as optional PVP could bring, renewed interest by Turbine may bring about more frequent and/or content-filled updates in the future.
I'll be out until later tonight, but I will respond to any comments left at that point. Again, as I said earlier I'm open to alternative reasonable suggestions other than PVP for competitive content (or really any content other than grinding), but none have been provided thus far.

The question in my mind is whether your prescription would fix the problems you've identified.

As I see it, most (if not all) of the player base here would like to see this game with a wider player base and Turbine more successful in its endeavors. The question in my mind, though, is not whether making the game more successful would be a good or a bad thing. I think anyone sufficiently open-minded would agree that a more successful DDO is better for everyone. The question in my mind is whether your suggestions would make it more attractive to the aforementioned general population.

In your response to my last post, you inferred that I think PvP makes people more self-centered. I made no such suggestion. On Chessbase.com, there's a good mix of those who are courteous when they win or lose and those who are rude, regardless of the results of their games, and they typically don't last a year there, as they quickly find themselves added to everyone's Ignore List. Meanwhile, the best players around like Wojtiewicz are courteous both online and in person at the mid-Atlantic chess tournaments where I've seen him.

My suggestion was that if you prefer the PvP approach, you might also prefer the emphasis WoW has to that of DDO. WoW (for whatever reason) remains the no. 1 game of all the various MMO's, and it has a strong emphasis on PvP. Personally, I think WoW's popularity is primarily because they were the first well-rounded MMO, and that the problems Turbine may or may not be experiencing are related more to a lack of marketing than anything else.

I don't object to an expansion of the PvP system in DDO, but it's also not where I think a solution to Turbine's alleged problems (as you've outlined them) lies.