Deleras traps

[Draccus]

Last night, I got a tell asking if I'd join a group for Deleras to take care of the traps on Hard. (note: This is the thing I LOVE most about DDO. As someone who played rogues in games like EQ, DAOC, and WOW, where rogues have to beg or buy their way into groups, being ASKED to join one is fantastic).

We flew through the first few quests and I was pleasantly surprised to see that not only could I find every trap, I actually spotted most of them. However, this didn't last! By the second to last quest, I couldn't find any trap at all. We had tons of trouble on the poison traps and the dart traps near the end (the ones that guard the shrine) and I was pretty embarassed that the one thing they brought me to do, I couldn't do.

Of course, this was all forgiven when I easily opened the two locked treasure chests at the end of the quest, but, still, I would have liked to have found some of those tougher traps.

I'm level 5, with max skill points in the Big 4. I also have Skill: Search and Skill: Spot enhancements as well as skill boost. I have +3 Search goggles so I think that gives me a total search skill of 21.

I would think a skill of 21 would let me find those traps but I don't recall what level the quest is. How tough are they?

Also, is Search a rolled check vs. a DC or just a straight skill check? If I am told where the control box is, is it useful to keep searching after failing, hoping for a higher roll or is it a one-time check of the skill?

[kamimitsu]

Search is a pass/fail system. You either have a high enough search, or you don't. There is no roll involved.

As far as I can recall, the quest you referenced is higher than your level (on hard). That being said, if your search is maxed and you used boost, there are still a few things to consider:
1) Intelligence; be sure that you are wearing any item that boosts your intelligence. Alternately, keep a few potions of Fox's Cunning to give you a +4 to Intelligence (and thus a +2 to search)
2) A higher bonus Search time (I believe you can get a +5 or possibly even a +7 at level 5)
3) Buffs; either bardic songs or a potion of heroism (or Greater Heroism).

That's about all you can do, but you should be able to get it.

[Noctus]

Also, is Search a rolled check vs. a DC or just a straight skill check?

No rolling included. Either your searchisgood enough, then you find the box, or you dont.

I'm level 5,

Delera´s on Hard is a bit over your level, so its not unexpected that you missed some traps.

with max skill points in the Big 4. I also have Skill: Search and Skill: Spot enhancements as well as skill boost. I have +3 Search goggles so I think that gives me a total search skill of 21.

Also your INT-Modifier (not Score) gives a bonus to Search and Disable. So you propably had more.
If you dont find a box which you know is there do the following:
- Drink a Potion of Fox Cunning. Gives you an additional +2 through raised INT.
- Drink a Potion of Heroism. Gives you an additional +2 morale bonus to skills.
- Activate Rogue´s Silll boost.
- Ask the Bard for a Skill-Boost-Song, if you have one with you.

[arminius]

Prayer helps too, I think.

No I don't mean that kind, I mean the cleric spell.

Though you can try that other kind as well, if you're into that.

_

[Draccus]

Thanks all. I didn't realize the quest was above my level. The group flew through the first few parts pretty easily and didn't really have any trouble until those traps near the end. Most people were level 6-7 so I was the only one dying

I'll start carrying Fox's Cunning and Heroism Potions. I'm really glad I took the Skill Boost enhancement as that helped me get one of them.

[dragonoffrost]

Also at level 5 you should be able to use +5 skill items. Hope you or someone in your party gets on and ask if you need it. Or check the vendors in the Rusty Nail or the Auction House to see if you can buy one. I found rogues to be very item dependent when running above level quests.

[Leyoni]

Rogues are my favorite class in DDO and I've just rebuilt mine.

You need good INT and WIS as a rogue to go with your DEX. Lots of people downplay INT and WIS but if you short change them you end up hurting as you've found out.

Most people know right where the traps are in quests (there are very few where the location isn't static) so you get no end of people helping you with their location. It doesn't do a bit of good unless you can spot and then search them out.

You cannot search unless you've spotted the trap or someone has set the trap off. Spot is a WIS skill. Carry potions of Owl's Wisdom to get a temporary boost. Carry Fox's Cunning potions to boost your INT for the search. Take buffs like heroism or any other skill boost you can get.

Definitely get and use the highest available search and spot items you can find for your level. All of those things stack (potions, buffs, items) and stack with your rogue boost. Take rogue enhancements to search and spot (racial ones too if available) and consider skill focus in each of them.

All of those things are much more important than they are given credit for to being able to spot and search successfully.

[LawstCawz]

Rogues are my favorite class in DDO and I've just rebuilt mine.

You need good INT and WIS as a rogue to go with your DEX. Lots of people downplay INT and WIS but if you short change them you end up hurting as you've found out.

You can get by with good gear and a 14 int, no wisdom.

Most people know right where the traps are in quests (there are very few where the location isn't static) so you get no end of people helping you with their location. It doesn't do a bit of good unless you can spot and then search them out.

You cannot search unless you've spotted the trap or someone has set the trap off. Spot is a WIS skill. Carry potions of Owl's Wisdom to get a temporary boost. Carry Fox's Cunning potions to boost your INT for the search. Take buffs like heroism or any other skill boost you can get.

You can search the traps even if you haven't spotted them.

Definitely get and use the highest available search and spot items you can find for your level. All of those things stack (potions, buffs, items) and stack with your rogue boost. Take rogue enhancements to search and spot (racial ones too if available) and consider skill focus in each of them.

All of those things are much more important than they are given credit for to being able to spot and search successfully.

Skill focus feats are a waste in a feat starved class. Sorry, I couldn't let the new rogue player go down like that.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Keep your trap skills maxed if at all possible.
Yake the enhancements to boost them...especially the Rogue Skills boost one (and use it)
Heroism potions.
Fox's Cunning potions
Cat's grace, and Owl's Wisdom potions as well
Haste potions are good for saves.
And jump potions help get over blade traps to a box.
Resist and prot potions as neccessary, and healing potions.

UMD skill....great!
Prayer adds +1 luck bonus to skills. stacks with most other things. Prayer scrols can be bought and clickies can be found.
The Voice of the Master end reward from delera's gives a +1 luck bonus to skills and saves....great for a Rogue!

GH scrolls...+4 to skills

And of course the best skill boosting items you can find (goggles, gloves...etc) don't neglect ones that boost your Int, Wiz, and Dex.

I'm probably forgetting some things, but these are all items that can be bought and used by anyone. You don't have to raid or loot run specific quests to be a good rogue! (but money helps)

[Draccus]

Keep your trap skills maxed if at all possible.
Yake the enhancements to boost them...especially the Rogue Skills boost one (and use it)
Heroism potions.
Fox's Cunning potions
Cat's grace, and Owl's Wisdom potions as well
Haste potions are good for saves.
And jump potions help get over blade traps to a box.
Resist and prot potions as neccessary, and healing potions.

UMD skill....great!
Prayer adds +1 luck bonus to skills. stacks with most other things. Prayer scrols can be bought and clickies can be found.
The Voice of the Master end reward from delera's gives a +1 luck bonus to skills and saves....great for a Rogue!

GH scrolls...+4 to skills

And of course the best skill boosting items you can find (goggles, gloves...etc) don't neglect ones that boost your Int, Wiz, and Dex.

I'm probably forgetting some things, but these are all items that can be bought and used by anyone. You don't have to raid or loot run specific quests to be a good rogue! (but money helps)

Thanks all, great stuff. I just picked up Voice of the Master last night and didn't even notice the skill bonus. I saw "5% experience" and selected it.

Funny how there are so many different opinions on Skill focus: UMD. Some say it's the manditory level 6 feat and some say it's a complete waste. I guess the 3e rulebook was correct when it listed said that rogues are some of the most diverse characters in the game!

[Leyoni]

You can get by with good gear and a 14 int, no wisdom.



You can search the traps even if you haven't spotted them.



Skill focus feats are a waste in a feat starved class. Sorry, I couldn't let the new rogue player go down like that.

You can get by, but to be really successful you need to do more than that.

You cannot search if the trap hasn't been either spotted or set off. Since the rogue generally has the best spot that means he has to spot them. Clerics with find traps and, occassionally, other characters can spot the trap instead, but searching without spotting isn't supposed to work -- if you don't know to search then why would you? But, I'll test it out later today just to confirm.

Rogues are not feat starved. They are like several other classes and have to decide what their role is. A "get by" build is going to be mediocre at best. Possibly an explanation for why the OP couldn't spot traps to begin with, even when they were known.

The most important stats for rogues are DEX, INT, and WIS. Depending on what the plan for the character is INT and WIS should run between 14 and 16. Now, all of that changes if the rogue is not primarily a trap monkey. Obviously, going a different direction with a rogue isn't bad. But, the OP posted about not being able to get traps.

From his description he probably was running Thrall of the Necromancer which is a L10 quest on elite IIRC. That's 5 levels above the OP's rogue. If he wants to run quests at that level and succeed he has to have a build that does more than "get by". That means high INT and WIS to go with his DEX, it means spending all his enhancements and feats on search and spot skills, it means getting the best available gear, it means getting the best boost out of potions, spells, rogue boost (anything that stacks).

Even with all of that, he probably was going to have a hard time getting to the spot number. That is a by-product of quests being so well known that people run them with their twinked characters at (character) levels well below what the quest was designed for.

For that the OP should feel no guilt or sorrow. He was asked to do what was much beyond his level. But, he could have built differently and, with the right set of buffs/enhancements/feats/boosts/gear come close or maybe even succeeded.

[MrCow]

You cannot search if the trap hasn't been either spotted or set off.

This is not true for DDO. You can not search for a trap if your search doesn't meet or exceed the trap's search DC.

Clerics with find traps and, occassionally, other characters can spot the trap instead

Do remember that Find Traps is a bonus to search. It does nothing for helping you spot them (and spotting a trap gives you a popup warning message).

[Impaqt]

You can get by, but to be really successful you need to do more than that. Not true at all. Read the Rogue Skill Guide and the accompanying Rogue Skill Breakdown thread. You can hit ANY trap in this game with even an 8 INT if you put your mind and resorces to it.

You cannot search if the trap hasn't been either spotted or set off. Since the rogue generally has the best spot that means he has to spot them. Clerics with find traps and, occassionally, other characters can spot the trap instead, but searching without spotting isn't supposed to work -- if you don't know to search then why would you? But, I'll test it out later today just to confirm.
Sorry, You can ABsolutely Search and find a trap that you havent spotted or set off in this game. One of the drawbacks of Pre-Knowledge of the quest if you ask me. Many Hybrid Rogues completely dump Spot because they know where all the traps are anyway. I would be infavor of the trapbox being unsearchable if it wasnt Spotted or set off.. But that snot thew way it works righ tnow.

Rogues are not feat starved. They are like several other classes and have to decide what their role is. A "get by" build is going to be mediocre at best. Possibly an explanation for why the OP couldn't spot traps to begin with, even when they were known. Yes, they are. They get 6 Feats. The bare Minimum. THey get no Bonus Feats either like many other classes. The Op COuldnt spot the traps because he was Under level and under geared.

The most important stats for rogues are DEX, INT, and WIS. Depending on what the plan for the character is INT and WIS should run between 14 and 16. Now, all of that changes if the rogue is not primarily a trap monkey. Obviously, going a different direction with a rogue isn't bad. But, the OP posted about not being able to get traps.I've never build a rogue with over a 10 base Wisdom. and Dex is only a Primary stat if you are a Derx based rogue. Again. He couldnt get the traps because he was Under Level and Under Geared.

From his description he probably was running Thrall of the Necromancer which is a L10 quest on elite IIRC. That's 5 levels above the OP's rogue. If he wants to run quests at that level and succeed he has to have a build that does more than "get by". That means high INT and WIS to go with his DEX, it means spending all his enhancements and feats on search and spot skills, it means getting the best available gear, it means getting the best boost out of potions, spells, rogue boost (anything that stacks). The Op didnt even realize he was running a quest above his level. It doesnt seem to me bes a Min/max Powergamer from his description.

Even with all of that, he probably was going to have a hard time getting to the spot number. That is a by-product of quests being so well known that people run them with their twinked characters at (character) levels well below what the quest was designed for.

For that the OP should feel no guilt or sorrow. He was asked to do what was much beyond his level. But, he could have built differently and, with the right set of buffs/enhancements/feats/boosts/gear come close or maybe even succeeded.

If he had all the required Twinks availabale for a level 5 character he most likely could of gotten those traps with his Curren INT/WIS scores.

[Varr]

You got all the advice there is to give, so here is some peice of mind. Three of the four The hardest traps to get happend to be in this type of tiered run. Party level 5-7, you are a 5. Deleras part 1 is level 5 (6 on hard.) Necro is level 8 (9 on hard.) So you were a level 5 rogue working on a level 9 trap box.......... This is also a problem for levl 3 rogues in the last part of tangle root (level 7 on normal) and wickedly hard for level 6 rogues in the second to last part of C06 (level 9 on normal.) A Cabal for One (level 13) is the only tough trap box for the sake of argument that is tough..............but for the other three 'hardest to get in the game trap boxes' it happens alot as the adventure scales, your skills become overmatched. Happens to every rogue that plays the game with aggressive quest selection.......ie tangleroot at level 3/4 instead of 6/7.

Second the idea of droping the feats for rogueing.........your giong to want two weapon fighting chain or a variety of other fun stuff to spend precious feats on.

[Leyoni]

Well, that shows what not spending enough time in the forums does for a person. I just tested the spot v search bit and was surprised (and disappointed) to discover that spot is not needed. That means Impaqt and the others who have posted that spot isn't needed are right.

It looks to me like the drawback to this is that you either have to know the quest already or be with someone who does. It also doesn't answer the issue of those quests where the traps are not static (although they do pop up in regular locations, just not all of the time -- not sure if there is a pattern).

I accept what others say about low INT and WIS with this caveat -- the trick is you have to have the resources (plat, gear, buffs, etc.) to put towards it. I haven't had that luxury and I think a lot of other people don't have that luxury either.IMO that means you should not short change your ability to spot and search by taking low or moderate scores in these stats. I'll stick with my recommendation of 14 to 16 in each as I've found that these are the levels that work.

Lastly, spending feats for weapon finesse and two-weapon fighting is a build choice. With adequate INT a player is often better off to take 2 levels of fighter to get those as fighter feats (the INT letting you back fill your rogue skills on moving to L2 rogue at character level 4). Again, it depends on what the build is designed to do.

Yucheng, using sword and board, was often in the kill race with DPS fighters as a L12 rogue before I restarted him (I have 2 accounts and wanted the slot on the original accout for a 32 point build). In that area, then, I will just restate the obvious -- build your character to do what you want it to do and adjust as necessary. About the only thing you cannot change in this game is your starting stats and your class choices at level up -- for those you need to delete and start over (I'm not counting ending stats that are affected by tomes, enhancements, etc). Everything else you can change if you really want to.

[Impaqt]

Well, that shows what not spending enough time in the forums does for a person. I just tested the spot v search bit and was surprised (and disappointed) to discover that spot is not needed. That means Impaqt and the others who have posted that spot isn't needed are right.

It looks to me like the drawback to this is that you either have to know the quest already or be with someone who does. It also doesn't answer the issue of those quests where the traps are not static (although they do pop up in regular locations, just not all of the time -- not sure if there is a pattern).

I accept what others say about low INT and WIS with this caveat -- the trick is you have to have the resources (plat, gear, buffs, etc.) to put towards it. I haven't had that luxury and I think a lot of other people don't have that luxury either.IMO that means you should not short change your ability to spot and search by taking low or moderate scores in these stats. I'll stick with my recommendation of 14 to 16 in each as I've found that these are the levels that work.

Lastly, spending feats for weapon finesse and two-weapon fighting is a build choice. With adequate INT a player is often better off to take 2 levels of fighter to get those as fighter feats (the INT letting you back fill your rogue skills on moving to L2 rogue at character level 4). Again, it depends on what the build is designed to do.

Yucheng, using sword and board, was often in the kill race with DPS fighters as a L12 rogue before I restarted him (I have 2 accounts and wanted the slot on the original accout for a 32 point build). In that area, then, I will just restate the obvious -- build your character to do what you want it to do and adjust as necessary. About the only thing you cannot change in this game is your starting stats and your class choices at level up -- for those you need to delete and start over (I'm not counting ending stats that are affected by tomes, enhancements, etc). Everything else you can change if you really want to.

Level 5 Rogue. Max Search Skill with a 10 INT.

8 Ranks (Should be maxed. Cost 0 Dollars.)
5 +5 Search Item (These drop from STK and Catacombs End rewards as ML3 and I;ve seem +7 Drop from STK as well Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Foxes Cunning Spell Or Potion Cost 240gold)
1 Cleric Prayer Spell (Cost 0 Dolars)
3 Rogue Skill Boost ( Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Elf/Dwarf Inherant Bonus (Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Rogue Enhance (Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Bard Inspire Competance Song (Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Heroism Potion or Spell (Cost 400gold/0 Dollars)
---

27-29 Search Skill for 640 gold Ivestment Max..... No Feats. and Nothing Uber.

[Varr]

As with everything ddo, playstyle and equiptment are more important then stats and class even most of the time. I like my rogue, pure and two weapon but that is just preferance. I would say that while wis is of little importance, a 14 to 16 starting int is nice to have esp if you want to be good at sneaking and a socal skill like diplomacy. The 7 skill points you get a level from an 8 int is plenty for you to cover umd, dd, ol, search. But if you want hide/ms/jump/tumble/diplomacy/balance so forth and so on, I like a 15 int with a +1 tome at level 1 personaly for 11 skill points per level. Rounds out nicely to a 22 int at higher levels, or 24 with +3 tome.

[MrCow]

I find the irony that if the original poster had one or two more points in Search that he would have found the trap boxes and this thread might never have been created.

[Leyoni]

Level 5 Rogue. Max Search Skill with a 10 INT.

8 Ranks (Should be maxed. Cost 0 Dollars.)
5 +5 Search Item (These drop from STK and Catacombs End rewards as ML3 and I;ve seem +7 Drop from STK as well Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Foxes Cunning Spell Or Potion Cost 240gold)
1 Cleric Prayer Spell (Cost 0 Dolars)
3 Rogue Skill Boost ( Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Elf/Dwarf Inherant Bonus (Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Rogue Enhance (Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Bard Inspire Competance Song (Cost 0 Dollars)
2 Heroism Potion or Spell (Cost 400gold/0 Dollars)
---

27-29 Search Skill for 640 gold Ivestment Max..... No Feats. and Nothing Uber.

Well, some assumptions here. First, the equipment. +5 or +7 search items are available and for no plat but you have to quest for them. Otherwise it is off to the AH. The OP mentions he had only +3, which I've found isn't that uncommon for players at L5.

Bard song and cleric prayer are assumptions and you shouldn't count on both classes being in a group. When you have a cleric you shouldn't assume he'll have prayer as one of his spells.

That means the OP's search skill is at least 5 below what you've posted. Then toss in the racial bonuses (we have no idea what the character's race was). That means -7 to what you've posted.

This is the problem with advice on the forum. Often times people make assumptions about what a character does or should have without regard for what reality is. Here is what we know:

8 for ranks
3 for rogue boost
2 for enhancements
3 for equipment

My math says 16, probably 18 for a 14 INT. That is 9 to 11 below your figure and represents what is most likely the reality.

Now, realistic ways to get that higher: Get better gear. Get potions. Since you cannot rely on spells and songs that will bring the OP up another 6 points (maybe 8 if he can find a +7 search item that he's allowed to use at L5). His best number on his own is going to be 24 plus INT bonuses. He can improve that by getting an INT tome and a +3 item. Some serious plat there. With a 14 INT, a tome and +3 INT item he can get to 28. And, that is likely the very best he'll be able to do on his own. And, it is a bit more than a 640 gp investment unless things are a lot cheaper on your AH than they are on mine.

[Impaqt]

Well, some assumptions here. First, the equipment. +5 or +7 search items are available and for no plat but you have to quest for them. Otherwise it is off to the AH. The OP mentions he had only +3, which I've found isn't that uncommon for players at L5.

Bard song and cleric prayer are assumptions and you shouldn't count on both classes being in a group. When you have a cleric you shouldn't assume he'll have prayer as one of his spells.

That means the OP's search skill is at least 5 below what you've posted. Then toss in the racial bonuses (we have no idea what the character's race was). That means -7 to what you've posted.

This is the problem with advice on the forum. Often times people make assumptions about what a character does or should have without regard for what reality is. Here is what we know:

8 for ranks
3 for rogue boost
2 for enhancements
3 for equipment

My math says 16, probably 18 for a 14 INT. That is 9 to 11 below your figure and represents what is most likely the reality.

Now, realistic ways to get that higher: Get better gear. Get potions. Since you cannot rely on spells and songs that will bring the OP up another 6 points (maybe 8 if he can find a +7 search item that he's allowed to use at L5). His best number on his own is going to be 24 plus INT bonuses. He can improve that by getting an INT tome and a +3 item. Some serious plat there. With a 14 INT, a tome and +3 INT item he can get to 28. And, that is likely the very best he'll be able to do on his own. And, it is a bit more than a 640 gp investment unless things are a lot cheaper on your AH than they are on mine.

So what do you want here? Super Twink or Work for your stuff? If you want to be a good rogue but cant afford the AH, then guess what.. Ya Gotta Quest.... STK is run all the time.. Every day... and they ALWAYS want a rogue. Forgive me if I think its reasonable that you RUN that quest a few times to get what you need to make your build efective. That is what this game is about.. Questing........

Clerics can swap spells at whim. There absolutely no reason a Cleric cant carry Prayer as a spell. Its one of the best buffs to use at level 5-7.
Reality is what you make it in this game. If ya wana run quests 4 levels above you, and ya dont ave unlimited resorces, ya gotta accept failure or find a way to succeed. Since he made this thread, I provided a way to Succeed WITHOUT wasting feats.

let me let you in on a Secret.....

No one cares about your trapsmithing end game. Cant get the Cabal trap? Oh well.... Break the floor out in Rainbow? No problem.. THe quest is easier that way anyway. Pure Trapsmith rogues are the least desired partymate when the going gets rough. You NEED to be able to contribute to the party in some other fasion. People RUn through Traps without a care inthe world. THey will bypass Traps that protect chests, and they will take ANY class other than a rogue in 90% of end game content... and f theres already a rogue in the group? Very few will add a second rogue build unless they know you.

Maybe you havent played end game on a rogue build yet.... Maybe you are in a Static group or Tight nit guild and never have to PuG.....

AN Average Trapsmith can easily disable the Traps in Vision of Destruction. Even on Elite. Thats the Highest level Quest in the game. Building a character to get the Cabal and Rainbow traps is a serious mistake for many rogues.